Night Lords recruitment

[Scribe]

Sure, I can buy that he think's he's invincible, at moments, but he still damned his Legion in PoC. I think we can agree on that? 1st Company was gutted...why? It did nothing, served no greater purpose.

 

Perhaps it wasnt suicide, but it surely was insanity? I dont know that it was an epiphany, but we get very very little insight after Curze wakes up. Next to nothing really, we dont know his motivations, we just know he wanted to attack, for whatever reason.

 

That testing of fate, to me, fits in fine with the last scenes of VL.

 

I am afraid I may have lost the thread of the conversation here. :p

 

Ok, read your post again.

 

"Maybe I dont want to die" - Is to me the likely outcome.

"What am I doing to my sons?" - Nah, I dont buy that. It doesnt fit with what he thinks of his Legion, unless the 1st are 'special' to him, and in that case he royally :cussed up.

 

I dont know feels like splitting hairs. Trying to prove what he thinks of himself is not false, trying to prove he isnt the sinner he 'knows' he will turn into, seems to be where he's at to me.

[Sgt.Sangha]

or maybe Curze just sent the the first company into the hands of the DA to be fractured and destroyed, I mean Sev is red handed and does end up getting captured, and he was really the only one who could unite the NL after Curze dies. Maybe he is setting it up so his misbegotten sons could never unite and end up dieing a slow and painful death over the millenna through infighting and attrition, to losing site of their purpose and becoming raiders and chaos worshippers and traitors to their own legion colours that would be the ultimate lesson that Curze could teach his own sons

[Kol Saresk]

@Scribe: Yeah, we can all agree that Curze was damaging his own Legion.

 

The impression that I received was Curze ties into this piece:

 

"His surviving brothers spoke of it - of the Dark Angels' final overwhelming assault - and Lord Curze at last realising the odds sweeping his sons into early graves.

 

He'd turned from the Lion in that moment, turned from the battle... And fled."

 

He turns when he sees what he's doing to his sons. And I'm willing to bet that everything Sevatar said earlier slammed into him at that moment and he hated himself for it.

 

So in Unremembered Empire, I can see a bit of suicidal tendencies worming their way in. But way back in Vulkan Lives, which happened before even Savage Weapons? It doesn't seem to mix right.

 

@Sgt. Sangha: two problems with that theory. Sevatar wasn't going to unite the Legion. In fact, most of the Legion seeme pretty united in wanting to counterattack the Dark Angels. So Sevatar did a coup de'tat and the split the Legion into six/seven fleets(technically there would have been seven but it is unknown what happened to the portion that would have been commanded by Sevatar).

 

And Curze was most likely unaware of events in general since he was in a comatose state reliving his upbringing on Nostramo.

 

And the Atramentar aren't even the whole First Company. You still have Zso Sahaal's Night Raptors.

[Kol Saresk]

Also, I think I should that I'm not trying to change your mind Scribe. Just explaining my standpoint and why it seems to make the most sense to me. It's actually kind of cool that we can talk about this calmly. And if anything, we're proving the Night Lords and their fans are a very fractious bunch with varying points of views.

[Scribe]

Also, I think I should that I'm not trying to change your mind Scribe. Just explaining my standpoint and why it seems to make the most sense to me. It's actually kind of cool that we can talk about this calmly. And if anything, we're proving the Night Lords and their fans are a very fractious bunch with varying points of views.

I save my insanity for talk about the Wolves... :D

I'm fine with having my mind changed, I think what we are looking at is going to be more clear once we both have read UE, and then see, maybe ADB graces us with a Night Lord HH book.

It could just be down to continuity as well. The Curze of 'today' being reflected in the desperation of VL when the timing just isnt quite right.

[Sgt.Sangha]

@Kol, when I said the only Sev was the only one who could unite the 8th legion, I was jumping on a hunch that perhaps those would be Curze's own thoughts. Not that Sevatar actually wanted to or eventually would. Because as you said he already split the legion into many fleets but thats also based on the fact that many NL have that opinion in the Night Lords trilogy. Of course I could be totally off, im trying to look at it from the view of the night haunter...not an easy task am i right?  Also didnt Zso become captain of the first after Curze, and after doing so the remaining Atramentar split rather then serve with him or was this recently retconned in book two? I know the original character of Zso had developed the Raptors in Lord of the Night. I always thought he did it after the First split. 

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, good point. Trying to figure out what Alpharius is up to is probably easier than thinking like Curze. Unless you have schizophrenia, bipolarity and a whole slew worth of other mental conditions. Maybe it's a good thing one side of the family is littered with those... gives me an advantage.......

 

He became First Captain after Sevatar presumably died during the Siege of Terra. According to Blood Reaver, I think, it describes that the Atramentar were split after the Eldar attack at Tsalgualsa, mostly because Sahaal stole the Corona Nox, left all of his forces on the assassin's ship, retreated to the Umbrea Insidor and then tried to flee. As a result, the Atramentar, who were probably beginning to fracture after the death of Sevatar, fully splintered in between the various companies-soon-to-be-warbands of the Night Lords. It can also be inferred that this is when the First Company Raptors splintered and the Raptor Cults began to form, both from the various splinters of the First Company as well as the various Assault Companies that existed throughout the Legion.

 

And the Raptors were his command company. Technically, so long as Zso Sahaal had a command position, he had the Raptors. Although when that happened exactly is unknown. If the Night Lords Company works like a direct analogue to the SoH First Company, then Sahaal would have had a captaincy well before he became First Captain. If not, well then it depends on what Forgeworld says. Which has the potential to make everything really convoluted.

[Balthamal]

I can't remember which NL book it's in (probably Void Stalker) but someone muses on the fact that Sevatar would have been the only once capable of uniting the whole legion after the death of the Primarch (or least be the only one capable of surviving the betrayals that would surely follow) that and the fact that he seems to be one of the few individuals in the legion who has the respect and/or fear of the rest, even though he's surprised by that fact. Add in the fact he'd have the first company (and more importantly the Atramentar, who were loyal to him beyond anything or anyone) behind him and he'd look a lot more secure.

 

As far as Zho Sahaal is concerned, from the info we've teased out of WoT from Massacre, it appears Talon Master is the title held by the ranking captain of the Raptors, even though they themselves are a part of 1st Company. We can see by their actions that the Atramentar were loyal to Sevatar personally, not the rank of First Captain.

 

With Curze, who knows. He's like an extreme case of bi-polar gone into overdrive. ADB describes his fighting prowess as twitching between a laughing, jerking maniac and a warrior locked in a kind of serene focus, sort of like jumping between The Joker and a Jedi. Even when Sevatar dives into his psyche, he tells Curze to his face that all he's doing is lying to himself, his own memories warped to match his own fracturing perceptions of how events played out. Granted he may have had noble (up to a point, you can't argue that submersing yourself in the guilt and sin of a planet for the greater good isn't an incredibly selfless act) but regardless of how he began, he still ended enjoying every act he carried out merely for the fear it generated rather than it being a means to an end.

 

Sevatar is more than rational enough to realise that the Dark Angels have the edge of the Night Lords, that's why he murdered half of the remaining Kyroptera to prevent them from dragging their warriors on the blades of the I Legion. Curze on the other hand wakes up and instead of thinking ":cuss! I went against the Lion and he carved me apart in minutes, best not try that again", he orders his ship into the teeth of the enemy guns and commands the most valuable company in the Legion to go on a suicide mission (something the Atramentar are not afraid of calling Sev out on)

 

Hopefully he'll appear in Unremembered Empire and Dan Abnett will do him more justice than NK did

[Balthamal]

@Kol There's a passage in Void Stalker that retcons/overrides Soul Hunter

 

It mentions how the Atramentar "walked straight these nights, their refusal to serve the new first captain affording them a rise in respect" and this supposedly happens before Curze dies

[Kol Saresk]

Well, talonmaster is a title from Lord of the Night. It was a title that Zso Sahaal wore in that novel. I've only seen it once since then in BL publications, and that was the short story Nightfall in reference to a leader of a Raptor "Talon", which I guess is analogous to the normal Night Lords Claw. From what I recall of what WoT said was in Forgeworld's Massacre, it seems that anyone who is in charge of any formation of assault troops is a Talonmaster. Which would fit with the interpretation in Nightfall.

[Balthamal]

Just have to wait and see whether anything further is released. I'm wondering whether we might see Zho Sahaal in Vol III since a new NL will be needed but who knows. 

 

Not sure I'm a fan of it being portrayed that way however, I always liked the way Talon Master sounded like more of a deed name like War Sage or Prince of Crows

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, that's what I thought too. Sounded unique. Then again, I guess it's falling in with "Dark Apostle" and "Warsmith", sound just as iconic.

[depthcharge12]

Zso Sahaal is just an awesomely evil sounding name.

 

Kinda brings out the whole poetic-knife-in-the-back language that Nostraman is. But isn't he Terran? Does it say anything about him in Massacre?

[Brother Heinrich]

The fact that Zho Sahaal was Terran born and still just as scheming and twisted as the rest just goes to aide my original view that the legion holds the real corruption, not necessarily Nostramo. This would even back up some of Curze's more reckless and costly actions. He possibly wants to cull the corruption in his legion simply through the fires of war. Basically he's just crazy, he lashes out at anyone and anything he perceives as being corrupt and evil, be it Nostramo or his own Legionnaires. Though at the same time the cruelty with which he punishes people is slowly twisting him as well, for all he proclaims to be an avatar of justice, the guy hangs out with rotting dismembered bodies...

[Scribe]

I think at the highest least detailed level it used to break down like this.

 

VIIIth was a Legion like any other.

Curze takes over Legion

Legion takes on Curze philosophy of Compliance through Fear.

Legion becomes tainted by their methods, just as Curze does.

Legion takes on criminals, becomes 'poisoned'. Curze doesnt acknowledge that his own methods are to blame.

Curze proclaims his Legion tainted, destroy's Nostramo, and joins Horus as its all he realistically can do.

 

Now however, the entire concept of the Legion being 'poisoned' is forgotten. The VIIIth was always poison. Was always corrupt, just under the surface. And Curze was a fool, ignorant, and willfully so.

 

I still quite dislike this new angle, but would love to be convinced otherwise.

[GhostMalone]

Maybe hanging with the dismembered bodies was a sort of repentance and part of his breaking pshyce.

 

I highly doubt we will ever know as to know a primarchs mind is hard enough, but to know kurze would truly destroy any sanity we have left.

 

Let sleeping dogs lie I say.

[Brother Heinrich]

Oh yeah for sure, just as long as :cussing Kyme never touches my beloved legion again. 

And I agree Scribe, I see the poison being a double dose of both poor recruiting standards and Curze's own f-ed up methodology. 

[GhostMalone]

June did a little damage to the NL I agree they should have one author a legion and only let the greats tackle the big E malcadore and such.

 

But when there's a team of writers and GW behind it. This will happen

[Wade Garrett]

I personally think the "dwelling among corpses" is a repentance/atonement thing, like Argel Tal carrying the weapons that killed his brothers.

(Apropeu Khârn quote: "There was symbolism, and then there was morbid obsession. Even the saner Word Bearers had trouble telling the two apart.")

[Scribe]

Guys guys...are we forgetting the Night Lord series? He lived, in the end, in a hall of screaming flesh.

 

Please, try and illuminate me on how hanging with the bodies HE HIMSELF LIKELY STRUNG UP was repentance. :p

[GhostMalone]

To torture himself considering he's a self deranged pshyco, I believe he's capable of it

[Kol Saresk]

Now however, the entire concept of the Legion being 'poisoned' is forgotten. The VIIIth was always poison. Was always corrupt, just under the surface. And Curze was a fool, ignorant, and willfully so.

 

I still quite dislike this new angle, but would love to be convinced otherwise.

Well, I don't think that's the angle. True, they primarily recruited from a penal colomy, but saying everyone who comes out of a penal colony is a criminal is like saying everyone from Australia or Georgia is a criminal. Well, technically Georgia was a debtor's colony but they were still prisoners.

 

So in the case of Terra, I don't necessarily see the posion as always being there. It was more like you had an audience that was more malleable to Curze's way of influence than say, the Dusk Raiders or the Emperor-personally-molded War Hound woul have been.

 

But my opinion might change when I read Massacre.

[Scribe]

Yeah, I'm holding out hope that its not as bad as 'this is the legion of criminals, who recruited more criminals and like...acted like criminals.'

 

EDIT: To the concept of him even seeking forgiveness would fly in the face of what we established as character in PoC.

 

Do not beg for forgiveness, do not ask why, you did this to yourself, and Curze has nobody but himself to blame.

 

EDIT the part 2: Really, Prince of Crows put it perfectly. There is no going back, there is no 'forgive', as to do so is monstrous. The act of forgiveness in his eyes is beyond weakness, beyond the concept of mercy, it would be an acknowledgment that his way is wrong.

[Brother Heinrich]

Yeah I'm with you there, it definitely cheapens the Legion as a whole. God how awesome would that be if the 'corruption' that Curze perceived was really the work of his own hand. No wonder he was crazy... Man I love our Dad lol.

[Scribe]

Sev touches on that as well at at least an option.

 

There is a righteousness that the Night Lords, and especially Curze himself would have felt. You can see his arrogance, his conceit. "There was no other way".

 

He did taint his Legion. 100% in my eyes. Hell even Savage Weapons touches on this beautifully.

 

No weapon wielded without cost.