Ahriman vs Huron, pt for pt which is better for infiltrating

[totgeboren]

To me, the problem with Ahriman is that every time I roll a witchfire spell I think "crap". If I wanted to shoot I would just buy my character a plasma pistol (which will often do more damage than most witchfire spells anyway).

Ahriman is based around shooting spells, but has no spell familiar, and does not reduce the enemy DtW roll or something like that either.

 

Really, the big problem is that 6ed has made blessings king, maledictions a close second and witchfires more or less suck (I know Jaws is good, but the powers from the rulebook).

It is the combination that you have to manage to pass your psychic test, then manage to hit, then go through a DtW roll, then wound, and then finally past the targets save that makes witchfires a bit weak, especially if you consider to points you spend on your sorcerer. From a statistical point of view a Champ with a plasma pistol tend to be better on average at killing stuff at range, and people don't give their champs plasma pistols because it's not worth it.

 

From that perspective, paying Land Raider price for a shooty psycher seem like a bit of a waste. But maybe me and my opponents are just lucky when it comes to passing DtW rolls, but I only tend to get one or two shooty powers off per game anyway.

[oreaper84]

Ahriman is about army synergy, which i believe is the topic of interest for this thread. The question was what is better for master of deception not which hq brings the most stand alone punch. In conjunction with the army as a whole. Ahriman brings a lot to the table and does so with a good degree of flexibility. Granted his best shooting is closer range, but if the army contains a close range shooty unit, then viola roll shooty powers. If the list has the uber smashface unit the wants to be in grips quick and safe, then roll for buffs/debuffs. Also he is a character of some major self buffing with a force weapon so cannot be just ignored in close combat. Just asked me what a buffed up Ahriman did to some death company.

 

This is not about the single shinig all star HQ of the codex, most can agree its neither of these choices. It's about bringing one of the best warlord traits in synergy to the rest of a list.

[daveNYC]

Ahriman brings a nice trait, but he brings it at a heck of a cost.  That and he's packing a Force Stick, an ability that wants witchfire powers, and he has to take a Tzeentch power.

 

So if what you're really after is the infiltration, go with Huron.

[Architect]

I don't care if he's "good" or  not. The point of my post is that you only need to take Ahriman over Huron if you want to have the shootier HQ of the two.

 

What he doesn't have, can't do, sucks at and dies to are all things that just don't matter here. He is more resilient than Huron, if you want to go "there".

[the jeske]

That is not true . Claw meister has a higher chance of killing his opponent in melee at 2/3 the cost. As range goes both die would die the same , if [and this is a big if] we would somehow want to run 1ksons with huron .

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Architect, I'm curious as to how you arrived at that conclusion.  They're both T4 W3 3+/4++; exactly the same defensive stats.  How is Ahriman heartier?

[totgeboren]

Well if you go all out on biomancy, you could potentially get him to have +D3 S, T, I, A plus fleet , IWND, FnP and Eternal Warrior. And if you are fighting a T6 monster, you still have one warp charge left to instant death it using your 5-7 S 7-9 attacks at I 6-8.

 

If you get the blessings from Biomancy, Ahriman will wreak face. And even if you only get witchfires, his staff will at least still allow you to use them all.

[Ishagu]

Who says you need to take witchfire powers with Ahriman???

 

Termies can deepstrike. Doesn't mean you should deploy them that way.

 

Use Ahriman to boost units and advance with Termies or Thousand Sons.

[Hezirah]

Ahriman is stuck with AP4 staff though..

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Well it's not like we can chose our powers unlike a certain mary sue, and all bar one of the lore of Tzeentch's are witchfires, and the "blessing" is the worst in the game so an auto swap out for Tzeentch's firestorm.

You don't aim for it, but the black staff allows you to be able to cast all your powers if you wish unlike a normal sorcerer, who if marked is likely to end up with multiple witchfires. If you don't use multiple witchfires, you are wasting the black staff, and unlike loyalists chaos players generally can do that.
With Ahriman your hoping for  about 2 witchfires, 2 buff/maledictions I'd say.

[Excessus]

I would hope for Endurance, Invisibility and Enfeeble myself and keep him away from the front lines...

 

But when you are speaking of survivability, Huron wins over ahriman definitely! #1 he has a less chance to get perils. #2 he can hide in units with MoN, effectively making him T5 outside challenges. #3 his superior weapons in melee makes him being able to kill things before they get a chance to kill him back.

[Sception]

Ahriman can do a lot of nice things, if you roll well with powers. Or you can roll poorly with powers, and he can be crazy overpriced. I don't think the ability to fire multiple witchfires is worth caring about. Lots of models have rules they don't use. You'll end up with a witchfire from your one Tzeentch spell, but the other three will be rolled like an undivided sorcerer, you just get an extra warp charge to work with, and that's nothing to complain about.

 

Ahriman is basically analagous to a level 3 power armored infantry sorcerer, only he always gets the best warlord trait, has an extra warp charge, has the default tzeentch spell as a bonus spell that you'll probably never use but that doesn't stop you from using another witchfire if you flub your spell rolls and get stuck with one, and lets you take thousand sons as troops, with the special note that infiltrating those thousand sons makes them, well, not 'good' maybe, but certainly suck a lot less. Drawbacks are no spell familiar, no bike or terminator armor, AP4 melee weapon, and costs an arm and a leg.

 

All in all, I wouldn't call him a bad character. But I'd only field him over Huron if I wanted to run a unit of thousand sons.

 

 

Neither Huron nor Ahriman is necessarily 'competitive', though. It seems to me that our infantry is lackluster enough in general that you're better off just minimizing their use rather than dedicating an HQ to try and buff them with infiltrate and psychic powers.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Fair enough, I figured a level 4 might be worth it, cos huron looks like a tax to me.

Huron IS a tax. But you are paying a lot less tax than you would by using Ahriman.