Nephilim Jetfighter

[Crazy Jay]

I haven't been playing long and but the general thought is that the Nephilim isn't worth it's points and it's a waste. I got a chance to field 2 of these bad boys in my last game (proxied) and they were well worth their points. I do understand that just about every thing is situational but against Necrons it was great. Using the Avenger Megabolter, Heavy Bolter and the missiles that was 10 AP 4 shots that went into the groups. Very effective. Now I don't know how much anti air necrons have, but I didn't see much and so they had their run of the battle field. I feel like even had I only fielded one, it would have done well.

Anyone else like to use it or have had success with it I'd love to hear your stories and strategies.

[Syphid]

The Nephilim can put out a lot of Ap 4 shots, but if you want mass AP 4 why not just take two Whirlwinds and save yourself 50 points?

[Pyro X]

Whirlwind have less movement and can die easier if I am not mistaken

[Syphid]

Whirlwind have less movement and can die easier if I am not mistaken

 

 

Not necessarily.  Same front and side AV and number of HPs.  Nephilim is a flyer, but you can keep a Whirwind out of line of sight lobbing pieplates out to 48".  Also for the cost of one Nephilim, you can get two Whirlwinds and a Techmarine to keep them running and increase cover save.

[elphilo]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. The problem is the Nephilim is too many points for what it does. Its great it did work for you and I love hearing it. But please keep in mind that is not the norm for it. Compare it to the Eldar flyer and you'll see why it isn't that good.

 

Whirlwind have less movement and can die easier if I am not mistaken

Syphid responded and I agree with what he said, but you could always take a vindicator for less than the Nephilim and that is truly scary. Hell you could take a Vindicator AND a Whirlwind for only 10 points more than the Nephilim. Which now that I think about it is something I should start doing. 

[InstantKarma]

Dare I even ask about the Dark Talon?

[elphilo]

Yeah the Nephilim does its job better as Anti Infantry with the avenger mega bolter. But then you run into the same problem as before.

[abraxus]

My problem with the Nephilim can be summed up as follows:

 

Nephilim

180 points

3 Hull points

11 AV all around

Twin-linked Heavy bolter

Twin-linked Lascannon

6 assault cannon equivalent missiles

0 transport capacity

 

Storm Raven

200 Points

4 Hull points

12 AV all around

Twin-linked Heavy Bolter (with other options)

Twin-linked Lascannon

4 almost lascannon equivalent missiles

Lots of transport space

Can add even more weapons

So
for 20 less points I lose a TON of functionality, and only gain a much better looking model.   I would own 3 of these models if the rules supported it. (Same with the Land Speeder Vengeance and Broadside... maybe it's good that the rules are bleh,... keeps me married).

 

[Pyro X]

the only thing that the dark talon has that is semi good is the stassis bomb but don't you have to be zooming to drop it?

[Retaliation]

It's also the only reliable multi-use source of blind in our codex. So unlike the jetfighter, it actually has niches nothing else in the codex can really fill. I've been tempted to get one and just use it to troll tau pathfinders. Even if they take a Shas'ui with blacksun filters, only the shas'ui is immune.

 

At that point though, why not just ally with space marines for a land speeder storm if that's your goal?

[ValourousHeart]

@ Crazy Joe,

It is good to hear that you are having such success with the Nephilim.  I have a couple that I am building that I just can’t wait to field.

 

Necron’s don’t have a lot that deals with flyers well except Tesla weapons, which get 3 hits for every 6 you roll to hit.

 

From a math hammer perspective there is nothing wrong with the Nephilim in comparison to just about every unit in the game vs. flyers.  The real problem is that there are a few units in the game that simply outclass everything else. (Raven, Drake, & Vendetta)

 

As far as effectiveness vs. av12 flyers & cost, the Nephilim is on par with 4 Flak ML Dev Squad.

 

So just ignore these nay-say-ers.  After all it could be that you understand something about how to use the Nephilim that other people do not, or something about your play style that just works well with it, or you might just be a better player than these others.

 

I know for me that I am not a better player, I’m good, but not better.  However in 4^th and 5^th (haven’t got to play much in 6^th) there was something natural in my play style with RW that enabled me to take my list and win with it, when others could not with the same list.

 

@ Abraxus,

The problem with that comparison is that it fails to consider the fact that these units are from 2 different codexes.  It also fails to address the issue of play style, which some codex play better to your style than others do.  Or even the difference between your play style and mine.  If we were comparing the Vendetta with the Valkyrie or even the Storm Raven to the Storm Talon, you would have a valid point.

 

But this comparison is like comparing the BA Storm Raven with the GK Storm Raven, which has less to do with their different missiles, and more to do with their vehicle upgrades and the troops that they might transport.  In the same vein comparing the Nephilim to the Storm Raven without comparing Black Knights & Deathwing Knight to Honor Guard & Death Company, really misses the big picture.

 

So if you want a Storm Raven, you have to decide if you want to start with a codex that has it or do you want to play DA and just ally one in… but if you ally you have to count all the extra stuff that you have to field to get the raven… and if that raven plus everything else is the cost of 2 Nephilims, did you really get a bargain?

[Syphid]

If Blacksword missiles had Armorbane then I think it would be balanced enough for the points.

[InstantKarma]

It's also the only reliable multi-use source of blind in our codex. So unlike the jetfighter, it actually has niches nothing else in the codex can really fill. I've been tempted to get one and just use it to troll tau pathfinders. Even if they take a Shas'ui with blacksun filters, only the shas'ui is immune.

At that point though, why not just ally with space marines for a land speeder storm if that's your goal?

Because if you have the 'Dakka Pole' and play it so your Dark Talon flies near your LRC that is holding the 'Dakka Pole', whatever it targets will in addition to the rift cannon be taking an addition 24 re-rollable bolter hits Hopefully this isn't the 'only way' the Dark Talon would be powerful, but the thought of the DT and LRC with the 'Dakka Pole' both shooting the same target seems to hit a level of cheese that is almost as distrubing as it is hysterical!

[Crazy Jay]

@ Crazy Joe,

It is good to hear that you are having such success with the Nephilim.  I have a couple that I am building that I just can’t wait to field.

 

Necron’s don’t have a lot that deals with flyers well except Tesla weapons, which get 3 hits for every 6 you roll to hit.

 

From a math hammer perspective there is nothing wrong with the Nephilim in comparison to just about every unit in the game vs. flyers.  The real problem is that there are a few units in the game that simply outclass everything else. (Raven, Drake, & Vendetta)

 

As far as effectiveness vs. av12 flyers & cost, the Nephilim is on par with 4 Flak ML Dev Squad.

 

So just ignore these nay-say-ers.  After all it could be that you understand something about how to use the Nephilim that other people do not, or something about your play style that just works well with it, or you might just be a better player than these others.

 

I know for me that I am not a better player, I’m good, but not better.  However in 4^th and 5^th (haven’t got to play much in 6^th) there was something natural in my play style with RW that enabled me to take my list and win with it, when others could not with the same list.

 

@ Abraxus,

The problem with that comparison is that it fails to consider the fact that these units are from 2 different codexes.  It also fails to address the issue of play style, which some codex play better to your style than others do.  Or even the difference between your play style and mine.  If we were comparing the Vendetta with the Valkyrie or even the Storm Raven to the Storm Talon, you would have a valid point.

 

But this comparison is like comparing the BA Storm Raven with the GK Storm Raven, which has less to do with their different missiles, and more to do with their vehicle upgrades and the troops that they might transport.  In the same vein comparing the Nephilim to the Storm Raven without comparing Black Knights & Deathwing Knight to Honor Guard & Death Company, really misses the big picture.

 

So if you want a Storm Raven, you have to decide if you want to start with a codex that has it or do you want to play DA and just ally one in… but if you ally you have to count all the extra stuff that you have to field to get the raven… and if that raven plus everything else is the cost of 2 Nephilims, did you really get a bargain?

Thank you, you said it better than I could have. I know the Nephilim is situational, but I'm starting to think it's under rated as well. If the opposing army has all their anti air eggs in one basket, it's fairly routine to target it first so that when the Neph comes in, it can go after priority targets. I don't compare it to anything not in the Dark Angel codex. While the whirlwind and vindicator can put out lots of hits, they are also much easier targets in of themselves. I'm not going to argue that the missiles could be better but as it stands its not a bad unit.

[Retaliation]

@ Crazy Joe,

It is good to hear that you are having such success with the Nephilim. I have a couple that I am building that I just can’t wait to field.

Necron’s don’t have a lot that deals with flyers well except Tesla weapons, which get 3 hits for every 6 you roll to hit.

From a math hammer perspective there is nothing wrong with the Nephilim in comparison to just about every unit in the game vs. flyers. The real problem is that there are a few units in the game that simply outclass everything else. (Raven, Drake, & Vendetta)

As far as effectiveness vs. av12 flyers & cost, the Nephilim is on par with 4 Flak ML Dev Squad.

So just ignore these nay-say-ers. After all it could be that you understand something about how to use the Nephilim that other people do not, or something about your play style that just works well with it, or you might just be a better player than these others.

I know for me that I am not a better player, I’m good, but not better. However in 4^th and 5^th (haven’t got to play much in 6^th) there was something natural in my play style with RW that enabled me to take my list and win with it, when others could not with the same list.

@ Abraxus,

The problem with that comparison is that it fails to consider the fact that these units are from 2 different codexes. It also fails to address the issue of play style, which some codex play better to your style than others do. Or even the difference between your play style and mine. If we were comparing the Vendetta with the Valkyrie or even the Storm Raven to the Storm Talon, you would have a valid point.

But this comparison is like comparing the BA Storm Raven with the GK Storm Raven, which has less to do with their different missiles, and more to do with their vehicle upgrades and the troops that they might transport. In the same vein comparing the Nephilim to the Storm Raven without comparing Black Knights & Deathwing Knight to Honor Guard & Death Company, really misses the big picture.

So if you want a Storm Raven, you have to decide if you want to start with a codex that has it or do you want to play DA and just ally one in… but if you ally you have to count all the extra stuff that you have to field to get the raven… and if that raven plus everything else is the cost of 2 Nephilims, did you really get a bargain?

The jetfighter is worse than 4 flakk missles. An expected .815 vs .889 hull points per shooting phase. Now when you consider that flakk are considered sub par for everyone except Imperial Fists...

Your better off going 4 lascannons + librarian. At least with those you can kill land raiders.

It's also the only reliable multi-use source of blind in our codex. So unlike the jetfighter, it actually has niches nothing else in the codex can really fill. I've been tempted to get one and just use it to troll tau pathfinders. Even if they take a Shas'ui with blacksun filters, only the shas'ui is immune.

At that point though, why not just ally with space marines for a land speeder storm if that's your goal?

Because if you have the 'Dakka Pole' and play it so your Dark Talon flies near your LRC that is holding the 'Dakka Pole', whatever it targets will in addition to the rift cannon be taking an addition 24 re-rollable bolter hits Hopefully this isn't the 'only way' the Dark Talon would be powerful, but the thought of the DT and LRC with the 'Dakka Pole' both shooting the same target seems to hit a level of cheese that is almost as distrubing as it is hysterical!

It does have great synergy with the dakka pole crusader. I didn't really include that because I've seen people complain how hard it is to get the pole in range of the thing.

For some reason I thought it only had one hurricane bolter though.

[InstantKarma]

@ Crazy Joe,

It is good to hear that you are having such success with the Nephilim. I have a couple that I am building that I just can’t wait to field.

Necron’s don’t have a lot that deals with flyers well except Tesla weapons, which get 3 hits for every 6 you roll to hit.

From a math hammer perspective there is nothing wrong with the Nephilim in comparison to just about every unit in the game vs. flyers. The real problem is that there are a few units in the game that simply outclass everything else. (Raven, Drake, & Vendetta)

As far as effectiveness vs. av12 flyers & cost, the Nephilim is on par with 4 Flak ML Dev Squad.

So just ignore these nay-say-ers. After all it could be that you understand something about how to use the Nephilim that other people do not, or something about your play style that just works well with it, or you might just be a better player than these others.

I know for me that I am not a better player, I’m good, but not better. However in 4^th and 5^th (haven’t got to play much in 6^th) there was something natural in my play style with RW that enabled me to take my list and win with it, when others could not with the same list.

@ Abraxus,

The problem with that comparison is that it fails to consider the fact that these units are from 2 different codexes. It also fails to address the issue of play style, which some codex play better to your style than others do. Or even the difference between your play style and mine. If we were comparing the Vendetta with the Valkyrie or even the Storm Raven to the Storm Talon, you would have a valid point.

But this comparison is like comparing the BA Storm Raven with the GK Storm Raven, which has less to do with their different missiles, and more to do with their vehicle upgrades and the troops that they might transport. In the same vein comparing the Nephilim to the Storm Raven without comparing Black Knights & Deathwing Knight to Honor Guard & Death Company, really misses the big picture.

So if you want a Storm Raven, you have to decide if you want to start with a codex that has it or do you want to play DA and just ally one in… but if you ally you have to count all the extra stuff that you have to field to get the raven… and if that raven plus everything else is the cost of 2 Nephilims, did you really get a bargain?

The jetfighter is worse than 4 flakk missles. An expected .815 vs .889 hull points per shooting phase. Now when you consider that flakk are considered sub par for everyone except Imperial Fists...

Your better off going 4 lascannons + librarian. At least with those you can kill land raiders.

>

It's also the only reliable multi-use source of blind in our codex. So unlike the jetfighter, it actually has niches nothing else in the codex can really fill. I've been tempted to get one and just use it to troll tau pathfinders. Even if they take a Shas'ui with blacksun filters, only the shas'ui is immune.

At that point though, why not just ally with space marines for a land speeder storm if that's your goal?

Because if you have the 'Dakka Pole' and play it so your Dark Talon flies near your LRC that is holding the 'Dakka Pole', whatever it targets will in addition to the rift cannon be taking an addition 24 re-rollable bolter hits Hopefully this isn't the 'only way' the Dark Talon would be powerful, but the thought of the DT and LRC with the 'Dakka Pole' both shooting the same target seems to hit a level of cheese that is almost as distrubing as it is hysterical!

It does have great synergy with the dakka pole crusader. I didn't really include that because I've seen people complain how hard it is to get the pole in range of the thing.

For some reason I thought it only had one hurricane bolter though.

The model shows two (don't have codex infront of me sorry). It would seem to be a simple matter though of flying the Talon to the LRC and having it stop within 6 in, or am I missing something?

[Retaliation]

Nah it does have two. I checked before I posted. I think I was under the impression that the racks under both wings added up to 1 hurricane bolter. I'm not entirely sure on the exact details of how the banner distance is measured, but since you measure to the hull and it's pretty high, you lose a bit of distance there. Less of a problem with land raiders to be sure, but when you're using ravenwing...

[Eternal Warrior]

From a beauty perspective it's only matched by the dark talon. But for mileage on the table 2 whirlwinds can do work against hordes of gaunts/boyz/fire warriors.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I haven't been playing long and but the general thought is that the Nephilim isn't worth it's points and it's a waste. I got a chance to field 2 of these bad boys in my last game (proxied) and they were well worth their points. I do understand that just about every thing is situational but against Necrons it was great. Using the Avenger Megabolter, Heavy Bolter and the missiles that was 10 AP 4 shots that went into the groups. Very effective. Now I don't know how much anti air necrons have, but I didn't see much and so they had their run of the battle field. I feel like even had I only fielded one, it would have done well.

 

Anyone else like to use it or have had success with it I'd love to hear your stories and strategies.

Bold and colour for people to realize this thead isn't about comparing the Nephilim to other flyers or rant about it. Enough of dead horse beating already. There are hundreds of threads complaining about the Nephilim, let's try to have a positive one for a change,

[elphilo]

 

I haven't been playing long and but the general thought is that the Nephilim isn't worth it's points and it's a waste. I got a chance to field 2 of these bad boys in my last game (proxied) and they were well worth their points. I do understand that just about every thing is situational but against Necrons it was great. Using the Avenger Megabolter, Heavy Bolter and the missiles that was 10 AP 4 shots that went into the groups. Very effective. Now I don't know how much anti air necrons have, but I didn't see much and so they had their run of the battle field. I feel like even had I only fielded one, it would have done well.

 

Anyone else like to use it or have had success with it I'd love to hear your stories and strategies.

Bold and colour for people to realize this thead isn't about comparing the Nephilim to other flyers or rant about it. Enough of dead horse beating already. There are hundreds of threads complaining about the Nephilim, let's try to have a positive one for a change,

Positive? Its a very pretty model :P :D

[Brother dean]

it takes at least one turn of quad gun shooting for it to die... And that avenger cannon makes it a fire magnet. You can use that if you are clever. It kept my speeders alive longer to kill another sisters squad and an exorcist.

[ValourousHeart]

 

@ Crazy Joe,

It is good to hear that you are having such success with the Nephilim.  I have a couple that I am building that I just can’t wait to field.

 

Necron’s don’t have a lot that deals with flyers well except Tesla weapons, which get 3 hits for every 6 you roll to hit.

 

From a math hammer perspective there is nothing wrong with the Nephilim in comparison to just about every unit in the game vs. flyers.  The real problem is that there are a few units in the game that simply outclass everything else. (Raven, Drake, & Vendetta)

 

As far as effectiveness vs. av12 flyers & cost, the Nephilim is on par with 4 Flak ML Dev Squad.

 

So just ignore these nay-say-ers.  After all it could be that you understand something about how to use the Nephilim that other people do not, or something about your play style that just works well with it, or you might just be a better player than these others.

 

I know for me that I am not a better player, I’m good, but not better.  However in 4^th and 5^th (haven’t got to play much in 6^th) there was something natural in my play style with RW that enabled me to take my list and win with it, when others could not with the same list.

 

@ Abraxus,

The problem with that comparison is that it fails to consider the fact that these units are from 2 different codexes.  It also fails to address the issue of play style, which some codex play better to your style than others do.  Or even the difference between your play style and mine.  If we were comparing the Vendetta with the Valkyrie or even the Storm Raven to the Storm Talon, you would have a valid point.

 

But this comparison is like comparing the BA Storm Raven with the GK Storm Raven, which has less to do with their different missiles, and more to do with their vehicle upgrades and the troops that they might transport.  In the same vein comparing the Nephilim to the Storm Raven without comparing Black Knights & Deathwing Knight to Honor Guard & Death Company, really misses the big picture.

 

So if you want a Storm Raven, you have to decide if you want to start with a codex that has it or do you want to play DA and just ally one in… but if you ally you have to count all the extra stuff that you have to field to get the raven… and if that raven plus everything else is the cost of 2 Nephilims, did you really get a bargain?

 

The jetfighter is worse than 4 flakk missles. An expected .815 vs .889 hull points per shooting phase. Now when you consider that flakk are considered sub par for everyone except Imperial Fists...

 

Your better off going 4 lascannons + librarian. At least with those you can kill land raiders.

 

Yes, you could do that.  I personally use attack bikes to hunt Land Raiders.

 

Fair enough on the chance to glance... but if you look at the chance to pen they are equal.

My inital study was to see how well we could do vs. helldrakes, the idea was to see who could kill it the fastest.

It came out to be pretty much a tie between the RWBK, TML speeders, Flakk Dev and Nephilim when you factored in the Dragon's 5++ and regen.

The group that performed the best was 5 speeders w. TML & MM at 12".

This unit was twice the cost of anyother unit that I tested, but the results were not twice as good.

When I added point parity, the TML squad actually came in last.

 

So how well does your lascannon squad do vs flyers?

How well does it do vs. a squad of guants?

And since the Libraran is such an integral part, how many points is that total?

 

This could also be a play style difference between us.  I don't like having only one unit that can perform a job.  So I always build lists with backups.  I also don't like units that only perform one job.  So part of my selection process is to have flexability so no matter where my units are someone can do something.

[Flake]

I play First and Tenth (Deathwing and Scouts) and use a Nephilim with the Avenger Mega Bolter to shore up the Deathwing's serious anti-horde problem. The weight of Str 6 fire the thing can put out against ground targets makes it great for slimming down any IC led squad before I come in for the assault with my DW Command Squad, giving my opponent's characters less room to hide from Thunder Hammers and Powerfists.

 

Like everyone has said, The Neph just can't pull its weight if you're using it to hunt other flyers but since my Deathwing really don't care about other fliers, it makes a perfect gunboat to apply extra firepower to whatever targets my undergunned Terminators are going after.

[SvenONE]

It is kinda hard to make a case for it, but given the mod intervention I will play by the rules!

 

If you're going to take one, without a doubt you want to take the AMB, I wouldn't expect it to be an AA threat in a game vs fliers, you're not taking out any Night Scyhtes anytime soon so you may as well just invest in the anti-horde aspect.  Hopefully you'll get your reserve roll and it will come in.  

 

Strafing Run is probably the best rule it has, I don't see much of a use for unrelenting hunter as I'd rather have a moving vehicle with no weapons than a stationary one that can still shoot me.  

 

Honestly the best strategy this thing has going for it, is hoping that your opponent decides to dedicate shots trying to shoot it down.  Additionally, I would run this in lists that are not fast attack heavy, like DW lists.  In the end though, take a Darktalon, you'll be much happier with the results.

[Crazy Jay]

Thanks for all the replies and thoughts. I've got a game next weekend and I plan to field 1 Nephilim Jetfighter and 2 Whirlwinds. It should make for an interesting side by side comparison. If anyone is curious, I can post my full army build, otherwise I'll try to let you all know how it went.

 

While I expected some Nephilim negativity I am encouraged by those of you that have also found uses and success with it. I wish all of you the best of luck in your future battles (unless it happens to be against me :)  )