Nephilim Jetfighter

[CovertToaster]

It is kinda hard to make a case for it, but given the mod intervention I will play by the rules!

 

If you're going to take one, without a doubt you want to take the AMB, I wouldn't expect it to be an AA threat in a game vs fliers, you're not taking out any Night Scyhtes anytime soon so you may as well just invest in the anti-horde aspect.  Hopefully you'll get your reserve roll and it will come in.  

 

Strafing Run is probably the best rule it has, I don't see much of a use for unrelenting hunter as I'd rather have a moving vehicle with no weapons than a stationary one that can still shoot me.  

 

Honestly the best strategy this thing has going for it, is hoping that your opponent decides to dedicate shots trying to shoot it down.  Additionally, I would run this in lists that are not fast attack heavy, like DW lists.  In the end though, take a Darktalon, you'll be much happier with the results.

 Unrelenting Hunter allows you to lock velocity which means that the opposing flyer can still move AND shoot but can't alter it's speed, evade, or move flatout. So whatever speed it was moving at when it was immobilised it has to keep going. It's supposed to allow you to muck with your opponents target selection I think otherwise it makes them a little easier to kill. If your nephilim is harassing anything that can hover then your opponent can essentially stop, make you fly past, and then shoot you from behind unless you can score an immobilised result on them first. Not that great a rule but not completely hopeless either. It would be better in an environment that relied on blowing vehicles up rather than just removing hull points, which it can't do.

 

However forcing your opponent into hover mode changes the unit type from flyer to skimmer so full BS for ground troops helps them to kill flyers but it's hardly a standalone vehicle.

 

Personally I would like GW to do nothing more than add one point of strength to the missiles so you have a one in three chance of glancing AV12 flyers then firing two per turn may actually do some good and of course reduce the cost by 10-20 points.

 

I would field one or two but the way they are now I would much rather take a chance on a pair of riflemen dreads as the re-rolls would probably get more damage through for the points.

[Biggabertha]

An opponent of mine spilled something I've yet to check up in detail myself but flying models (hovering or otherwise) that get Immobilised twice immediately crash (and burn).

 

I tried to proxy in three Nephilims to see how this could work but I couldn't keep more than one Nephilim on the table at once: it's such a high priority target once it hits the table and I figured out why: that Twin Linked Lascannon Immobilising Land Raiders, Vindicators and punching through Whirlwinds are nuts (totally killing Whirlwinds, that is).

 

But best of all, is forcing Dreadnoughts into Immobilising. Opponents fear this completely once it hits them once or twice but sheesh, this is all based on a "bad" roll on the Penetration Damage Table. I guess it just makes it a bit nicer to make up for what appears to be a poor unit.

 

Unfortunately, we can't have this unit buffed at all: bad enough Chaos Space Marines got smacked hard by a ton of our units but sheesh, for us to have a REAL answer to one of their best units (Helldrake) is just too harsh.

 

 

I've had INCREDIBLE fun with the Nephilim and while it does cost a ton in comparison with others etc. it is just so nice that our Codex is flexible enough for both good aesthetics and to look like a huge threat.

For example... No one's "scared" of Black Knights the first time they see them but we all know different... They'll be one of the first to be nerfed, I'm sure.

[Crazy Jay]

In case anyone is curious as to my army build for my next game, I've posted it in the DA army list forum located here...

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281405-2000pt-vs-dark-eldarnecron/

 

Thank you for all the discussion.

[Ultra Magnus]

Although the AMB variant seems more popular (relatively speaking), I am coming around to the idea of it's anti-vehicle lascannon configuration. Trying to glance an AV12 5++ HP regenerating flyer seems like a waste of time to me. Instead, the Nephilim's lascannnon gives you more penetrating opportunities which, even if it doesn't kill it outright, will essentially disable it for a turn which ends up saving one of your units on the ground from death by BBQ (templates can't fire snap shots).

 

It's ability to increase immobilize results also has significant benefits. Remember that if a vehicle is already immobilized, a second immobilized result (1/3 chance with the Nephilim) will inflict an additional hull point of damage thus giving you a strong possibility of taking down a Helldrake in two rounds of shooting. This also has benefits against most ground targets, as you would much rather immobilize a Land Raider, Rhino, or Vindicator, instead of removing it's "bubble wrap" storm bolter on a weapon destroyed roll. 

 

Still, it doesn't come cheap but something to think about. Would be interesting to see how it stacks up mathammer wise to a Mortis lascannon dreadnought though.

[Biggabertha]

As awesome as the Twin Linked Lascannon Mortis (Contemptor) Dreadnoughts are, they can only take at best, two hull points off and still need two turns to do so - granted, it can be taken in pairs and then problem solved but that's Heavy Support slots used up as opposed to Fast Attack slots.

 

Still, I like the double Immobilised take on things: really liking the idea of multiple Nephilims but damn... not only is our Heavy Support slots severely in competition but so are our Fast Attack slots! I want SO many Black Knights!

 

I think I'll be losing a lot of games in the future... My want for sexy/cool models always trumps my choices in being tactical and rational, lol

[Ultra Magnus]

@Biggabertha

I think you need to look at the lascannon Mortis Dreads like the Nephilim; they are not there to glance but to pen. Any pen roll on the flyer is a win for us. 30% of the time you kill it, you immobilize it, you take away its Baleflammer, or you prevent it from shooting for a turn. A hellturkey that can't flame you is just a turkey!

[SvenONE]

@Biggabertha

 

I think you need to look at the lascannon Mortis Dreads like the Nephilim; they are not there to glance but to pen. Any pen roll on the flyer is a win for us. 30% of the time you kill it, you immobilize it, you take away its Baleflammer, or you prevent it from shooting for a turn. A hellturkey that can't flame you is just a turkey! :)

its especially important to note the FOC and cost of the mortis. FW units are always a tad on the strong side, but the prevalence of the mortis in any DA antiair discussion just proves how limited the AA options are. IMO a FW model shoupdnt be so heavily discussed in a tactics discussion but rather a fluff or fun on.

[plasmamarine]

I used my nephilim a while ago in a apocalypse match and the result was...surprising.

It survived three turns of being shot at by a tau barracuda, an ax10 tiger shark? (the super heavy tau flyer with the two big guns) and two battle cannons with skyfire, AND SURVIVED!

And to top it off the nephilim shot down both the tiger shark and the barracuda, and when it finally went down it chrashed and burned into the enemy tau battlesuit commander, striking down the vile xenos

anyways i agree that it would do well against things on the ground so you have to hope that your opponent doesn't have any flyers of your own

[MadMek83]

I would be happy if GW would reduce Nephilims points let's say 10 points and make either blacksword missiles or avenger mega bolter s7.

[Varizel]

Well today, i took my 2 nephilim jetfighters with Lascannon config to fight against chaos with 2 heldrakes. My list got a dev with Flakk Missiles though and ADL. The Nephilim was quite a star in that game with that config. Honestly when they first show up, i tried to shoot down 1 Heldrake with only 1 HP left, and all my lascannon failed to penetrate ( didn't fire the missile... too cocky), so i thought dang .....

But the next turn, it turned into a crazy dogfight with the heldrake (which had its hp back due to IWND) and both of them managed to land on the back of the Heldrake and blast it out of the sky. The other heldrake was shot down by the ADL b4 it even do anything. After the dogfight my Nephilim went up and killed 4 more Nurgle Oblits in the next 2 turns. So hey... both of them did a good job. I was humming top gun theme on the end of the game while my Nephilim was flying to the edge of the board . Honestly my opponent screw up by letting me get the bead on his heldrake butt. Brother Lukas on Black 5 used to shoot womp rats after all back home .

[hart3856]

Recently I played 2.5k game and fielded a nep and dt against necron. He only fielded one doom so I figured I might have the advantage. He was mopping the floor with my dw termies with his mind shackles and gaussing down my LRC's it was truly bad.

 

The game turned because of those two flyers. His flyer was on the board one half of a turn when I shot it down. Then the fighters went back to hammer ground forces. That stasis bomb saved my tac squad from getting shutoff a objective because his 20 man squad were blinded. Thank goodness it was the big guns never tire scenario otherwise he would have won hands down on points from all the termie squads he sent to the grave.

 

After three turns I was losing badly. By turn 6 when it ended the entire game swung back my way because those planes flat took out open topped vehicles which all necrons are after you pop their av 13 shield.

 

I for one have fielded them three times now and won each time. Once against orks, Nids and now necrons. All had flyers in their respective lists. I feel that our flyers are nowhere near as competitive as some of the other ones. But it all boils down to tactics. Do you know how to take advantage of your movement and board angles so when you come on you can go three rounds shooting each turn before resetting. Also using Hover strike at the perfect time. The flyers work great even though at times they can be very situational. Plus anytime you can get twin link las that mobile it makes an enemy cry when you can reach out and touch them!

 

I for one like them, I have lots of storm talons and ravens for my other armies but those remind me of helicopter gunships, da flyers are fighters. I have lots of aegis and aa guns for my other armies, but none of these are as fun to field as da fighters. I wish they were a little better in air to air combat but hey that gives us something to look forward to down the road.

 

Here is the bottom line: I have to thank threads like these, because with the sheer amount of complaints these units get, no one fields them, let alone purchases them. So when I pull mine out, people always take note of them. So in a round about way thanks for all the complaining it lets me field something special :)

[Ishagu]

The Nephilim is fine. It's a great flyer and has many uses.

 

I think it should be costed at the 160 point mark though. Still, 3 Hull points is a massive boost over the Storm Talon for example, and AV11 is where flyers should be... (damn you Heldrake)

[[TA]Typher]

I always thought that the Voss pattern strike fighter would look awesome painted as a Nephilim and be a great proxy.

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/large/voss-paint1.jpg

 

It reminds me of the WW2 Corsair fighters.

 

http://www.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/2009-10/19/66420.jpg

 

With that said the amount of negative postings and information about the Neph has always kept me from getting one.

[johnyocum]

I plan to get me a Nephilium soon after returning to Killeen from my current mission.  I will find a way to save up for it, if I don't have the ability to just get one with the last perdiem check.

 

It looks like it's an excellent craft, and I do want the ability to defend the skies from an airborne position as well as from the ground.

[march10k]

the prevalence of the mortis in any DA antiair discussion just proves how limited the AA options are.

 

Oh, for the love of the Emperor!  FW Mortis Dreadnoughts come up in the AA discussions of EVERY loyalist marine chapter.  It doesn't prove that DA don't have AA options, it only proves that a FW mortis is an overpowered option.  Really, two godhammers or TLAC that shoot fliers at their natural BS?  That's "good enough?"  Anything less than that is "limited?"  Hell, even the hydra, the GOLD STANDARD of AAA isn't as good as that.  Our fliers might be a little overcosted (well, one of them is) and not as overpowered as the hellturkey or the flying land raider that you can take nine of, but our AA options are pretty standard.  Or do other people get S12 flak missiles as a free upgrade on their devastators?

[ValourousHeart]

Thank you March10k,

 

Some of these comments are beginning to sound like a broken record. Yes we get it you want the nephilem to have better weapons and a lower price tag.

 

Well I want black knights to have W2. I want it to be a foregone conclusion when I slam that unit into Nob Bikers.

 

We have heard your complaints about a unit some of you have never tried. Now we would like to hear from people that have tried it and find out what worked for them and what didn't.

[SvenONE]

 

the prevalence of the mortis in any DA antiair discussion just proves how limited the AA options are.

 

Oh, for the love of the Emperor!  FW Mortis Dreadnoughts come up in the AA discussions of EVERY loyalist marine chapter.  It doesn't prove that DA don't have AA options, it only proves that a FW mortis is an overpowered option.  Really, two godhammers or TLAC that shoot fliers at their natural BS?  That's "good enough?"  Anything less than that is "limited?"  Hell, even the hydra, the GOLD STANDARD of AAA isn't as good as that.  Our fliers might be a little overcosted (well, one of them is) and not as overpowered as the hellturkey or the flying land raider that you can take nine of, but our AA options are pretty standard.  Or do other people get S12 flak missiles as a free upgrade on their devastators?

 

 

I totally agree it DOES prove FW has overpowered options, it's all they do!  But we're talking specifically about C:DA and C:DA codex units, and by that context the options are limited.

 

And while the mortis' are a part of other loyalist chapter AA discussions, they at least have those stormraven/stormtalon options if need be, both of which provide more utility than the jetfighter for better cost options, not to mention they can also take devs with flakk.  Again, aside from Tau and IG most codices AA options fall in line with one another.  It's just that the Jetfighter LOOKS like it should be an AA option but is actually best used as an anti-infantry option.

 

As we've said in this thread if you're going to take it, take the AMB and you'll be much happier for it.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Just to add my 2c in defence of FW rules; I use several Mortis dreads and/or Mortis Contemptors whenever my opponent is bringing his twin Stormchickens, do they help? Hell yeah, are they overpowered? Hell no, they just help to balance out our armies and give more than a snowballs chance of surviving with DA allowed units(I don't really do allies), he still wins a lot with normal GW overpowered rules :P .

I have all the FW books and there are VERY few OP 40k units in them and they listen to feedback and modify rules way more often than GW. They even just lowered the Mortis Contemptor's BS and nerfed the Lucius Pod to keep the moaners happy, I'm not sure why, it was fine how it was.

 

OT: Thanks to those Frater for posting actual anecdotal examples of how our Nephilm is doing on the tabletop, I don't have any Nephs due to their points cost but may be convinced to get a squadron in the new year all going well.

 

:D

stobz

[Grand Master Raziel]

The very first time I fielded my Nephilim, it shot down (blew up) my opponent's fully loaded Storm Raven.  Not only did it kill the Raven, but it also killed 3 of the 5 Assault Terminators and the Dreadnought it was carrying!  It'll probably never do as much for me again, but damn, what a debut!

 

It occurs to me the Nephilim can be helped by Reserve roll manipulation, which we've got some access to.  If it's flyer vs flyer, the one comes onto the board second has the advantage.  Brilliant Planning from the Warlord table can help, but I figure the real action is in Scrier's Gaze (Divination 6).  Assuming we're all using ML2 Librarians, we've got 3 chances to roll up one or both of them.  We can get one automatically if we take Azrael in our lists.

[FlamingDeth]

The trick to the nephilim not sucking is getting rear armor, the place you always want to end up in a dogfight. If you have the AMB that's a ton of shots against AV 10, and with the las cannon you're almost guaranteed a pen. Tricky sometimes, but doable. Honestly I think the real way to cement it as an air superiority fighter worth it's points would be to give it Vector Dancer.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Stormchickens are all around AV12? iirc. They are my current problem so any side will do, the main problem is keeping my key assets alive until the turn after his. Interceptor is the best thing for that IMHO.

[Aradiel]

if by storm chiken you refer to the storm raven, is av is 12/12/12 , helldrake is 12/12/10

this pet names allways made my head hurt i prefer to call things by their name. it less confusing.

what can i say, im getting old

[march10k]

I agree that FW is chock full of stuff that's really interesting, but not overpowered, and usually overpriced.  That said, 90% of what people buy from FW is the same models, over and over...not because repressors are cooler than thunderer siege tanks, but because there are a small number of units (like the repressor) in FW's stock that...well, not all of them are overpowered in the metagame, but they are overpowered compared to an equivalent model in the codex.  Repressors blow rhinos out of the water.  FW mortis dreads (especially contemptors) are far more superior to what's allowed in C: DA than the points difference justifies...besides which, points cost isn't everything.  If your codex doesn't offer melta weapons out of some balance reason that only makes sense to GW, and you take melta-equiped options from FW, you're in effect breaking your codex.  I'm perfectly fine with 95% of what's in FW, because most of it is just cool fluffy stuff that doesn't offer a competitive advantage, and most of the rest is just alternate models for stuff you already have access to. 

 

But for SoB (I play them. so I feel okay about picking on them) to have AV13 transports with a free heavy flamer is a HUGE benefit no matter how many points it costs.  Before the repressor, if you could find a way to get a chimera instead of a rhino, you did so...and not for the multilaser.  A pip stronger on the front and sides, and a shorter side facing (makes it far more likely that a shot is in the front arc), and you can have as many as you want?  For units with access to dual melta or heavy flamer/flamer?  It's a massive improvement that wasn't taken into consideration when the codex was balanced out prior to publication (the last real codex, I mean).  So spamming repressors was a huge improvement.  Instead of hoping that AV11 survived long enough to get you into range (sisters work best at 10" from the enemy), you're confident that you not only survive the trip across the board behind AV13, but you can do a drive-by with two heavy flamers and a flamer when you get there.

 

I'm not saying that FW contemptor mortis dreads are a "win button" of that caliber, but they are a massive improvement over the tools that GW put in our codex.  I'd let you use them, but I sympathize with people who have a problem with it.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gentlemen.. This is a thread about the Nephilim. If you widh to discuss other stuff like FW models, you can open a thread for it.

[InstantKarma]

 

the prevalence of the mortis in any DA antiair discussion just proves how limited the AA options are.

 

Oh, for the love of the Emperor!  FW Mortis Dreadnoughts come up in the AA discussions of EVERY loyalist marine chapter.  It doesn't prove that DA don't have AA options, it only proves that a FW mortis is an overpowered option. 

 

^ True story. FW = OP.  Done, lets move on.

 

I for one am liking this discussion on the Nephilim and think I would like to pick one up.