Picking Themes and Things

[Julgolax]

(Quick note: I'm not sure if this goes in Liber Astartes or General Discussion, sorry ahead of time!)

 

I'm starting this thread because in spite of my best efforts, my brain just can't stay happy with any one of my many, MANY ideas for a space marine chapter that no one's seen before.

 

The first part of my problem is, I have so many ideas that I like, it seems impossible to pick one to begin with. The second part of my problem is that if I do pick an idea, I can't seem to stay happy with it because of outside influences, whatever they may be.

 

I've had a ton of great ideas that may or may not have been used before. Inspiration for these ideas have come from everywhere including other works of GW, video games, and movies. Some ideas even push the boundaries of lore, challenging what can, would, and does happen in the Imperium. (I even came up with an idea on how to make Cadian space marines plausible)

 

I will say that one of the longest standing sources of inspiration have been Pedro Kantor, Gabriel Seth, Medieval Knights, Special Forces (Navy SEALS), and the function-over-fasion look of this Lysander... simply awesome. ( http://chestofcolors.com/wp-content/gallery/kacpero-warhammer-40k/lysanderCMON.jpg )

 

The question is... why can't I seem to pick something and stick with it? Or perhaps, how could I fortify myself with a decision? I don't see it as a light decision because once you commit to a full space marine army, you have to have color, insignia, company markings, squad markings, and theme down pat or it might end up a giant regret. (like when I tried a black templars army... lets not go there).

[Octavulg]

The question is... why can't I seem to pick something and stick with it?

Because you're a bad person?

I don't know. Have you considered a course of meditation and reflection? Do you face this problem in other facets of your life?

Or perhaps, how could I fortify myself with a decision?

First, stop pursuing uniqueness. It is greatly overrated. Uniqueness is not creativity. Nor is it intrinsically interesting. Snowflakes are all unique. People are all unique. It does nothing to make either of them more pleasing. Making something no one has seen before is very easy. Making something good and worthy of your continued attention is a lot trickier.

Second, figure out what elements you like (you seem to have done that). Then figure out what elements of THOSE you like. For example, when writing the Steel Dogs, I originally wanted Rogue Trader marines. Then I focused in on what elements I liked about the Space Marines of Rogue Trader - I ended up with the horrible nature of the recruits and the general grittiness of the setting (when it wasn't being ridiculous).

This may require some deep thought. "I like Navy SEALS because they're badass" and "I like knights because they wear shiny colours" would be a poor foundation for a chapter. Getting into the more subtle and more nuanced elements of your influences is always a good idea.

Another option is to pick a concept and add a twist to it. The Ice Lords are Dark Angels who are knightly in the chivalric sense. This results in a chapter that hates Jonson, because Jonson's a git. In this case, you have to grab the idea and then wring every bit of character out of it that you can - not smearing it all over the chapter, but really understanding and exploring the implications of the change you have proposed, and really understanding how the chapter would come to be that way. It helps if you combine this with the steps above, since then you get an idea you're thematically invested in that's also an interesting exploration of the universe.

The first two steps are more important than the third, for all that the third is what a lot of people try to do.

[TrashMan]

I'd also sugegst subtlety.

 

A Chapter inspired by something and a chapter mimicking something are two different things. Don't over-do yout theme.

 

If you want a japan-inspired chapter, don't make them look completely like samurai, act like them and have names and titles like them (Shogun insted of Chapter Master, etc..).

Be subtle. Don't overdo it. The theme shouldn't be immediately obvious.

[Ace Debonair]

I also prefer the more subtle approaches.

The most painful part of reading an IA for me is when someone takes names or titles from other things and shoe-horns them in with the subtlety of a crowbar being jammed up your nose. In extreme cases, it's stopped me from even wanting to comment on an otherwise good idea.

King Arthur and Japan are the two classic examples of non-subtlety. There's ALWAYS a Chapter Master Arthur who might or might not yet be a Dreadnought, a traitor-Lancelot-equivalent and a psyker called Nerlin or something else equally blatant, all from planet Albamelot or similar.

Chapters based on Japan usually find gratuitous Japanese words thrown in, which is like slapping a guy in the face with your theme, and most of them equate scouts to ninjas regardless of any sense. Samurai and Ninjas have basically nothing in common except they were both present in Feudal Japan. It's like having a Native American Chapter whose scouts are Cowboys. All traitors will be called Ronin (instead of you know, traitors) and be anti-hero-non-chaos guys who are still good deep down somehow because Chaos Samurai is INCONCIEVABLE.

This is purely a personal taste thing, however, as some of the really blatant IAs have also been widely popular, so there's clearly no 'one true method' of theming a Chapter.

Heck, my Stonebound were about as subtle as an exploding car, and they were popular with everyone except me.

So, that said, taking ideas from things you like is still a great way to theme a chapter.

My advice, however, would be to take aspects from more than one source, and don't be afraid to adapt or adjust naming conventions. Borrowing from many places lets you mask or reinforce the theme as you see fit.

My Rift Lords, for example, borrow names from a bunch of characters I've used for other stories in the past (with the spelling mixed up - anagrams can sometimes be your friend ), along with taking influence for their titles from a book I once read and their ships' names from the very first RPG I ever played.

For example, you might want to blend both King Arthur and Ancient Japan into one chapter, because you love you some honour-centric marines.

This might give you Shogun-led Companies who sit at a Round Table on board their battle barge Camelot Bushido where each Shogun also swears allegiance to their first-amongst-equals, the Once and Future Daimyo Arthur Nobunaga. Scouts are ninjas, marines are Knights, but assault marines are Samurai and have katanas.

Fine. Now, add some subtlety.

This might give you clan-companies who recruit only from specific kingdoms and/or their knightly orders back on their homeworld. They are nominally led by a Chapter Master (selected by the other Captains, maybe?) but when the Chapter faces difficult decisions, a council of all available Captains is called and all are afforded equal standing. Scouts are as much squires to veterans as warriors in their own right, and there is an elite cadre of warriors in each clan-company whose duty is to seek out and slay the toughest foes on any given battlefield.

It might also give you better names.

So to sum up, while subtlety isn't for everyone, it can be worth applying to any idea you are otherwise unsure of.

EDIT:

Incorrect grammar made it sound like King Arthur was a traitor-lancelot equivalent psyker called Nerlin. EPIC FAIL on my part!

[Julgolax]

Well, I too am a student of subtlety really. When I referenced Gabriel Seth and Pedro Kantor, they're Chapter Masters who look the part but aren't gilded head to toe like Marneus Calgar (a.k.a. ridiculous).  They inspire me the most because they both have their own niches, like their chapters with theme, equipment, armor, and play style.

 

Since I like close combat, I do tend to lean more towards flexible infantry, aggressive elites, and supportive armor/vehicles.

 

For my Primarch of choice, I'm really on the fence between Dorn (Imperial Fists tactics) and Jaghatai Khan (White Scars tactics).

 

My favorite ideas, ones that I like the most at least, usually revolve around the idea of a tribal or feudal homeworld from which the chapter draws it's recruits and it's culture. As an example, I went so far as to take the idea behind Avatar, these floating cave-strewn mountains and apply it to the Sky Sentinels chapter. Tribes of humans who live on Pranagar have built a civilization among the mists and clouds of the planet's floating land masses. Every generation, the tribes are brought together for basically a "moot" and the first born boys are offered to the chapter. The chapter itself favors mobile warfare, particularly jump packs, storm gunships, thunderhawks, drop pods, and as it's signature weapon would be power spears (rather than swords) in the same style as the hunting spears used by the tribesmen who leap into the sky (tied with rope) and spear the giant birds that inhabit the planet.

 

And that's just one idea.

[Ace Debonair]

Ah. One tip I can give happily is to not let current game mechanics dictate anything much about your Chapter.

If you pick the Khan, and next codex makes bikes and White Scars' traits much less desirable, you'll suddenly either feel like you backed the wrong horse or have to change big chunks of your marines' background.

So I'd suggest picking the Primarch whose personality and values you like most, regardless of anything else.

Another point I'd respectfully bring up, alongside Octavulg's earlier point about individuality being nothing special: theme doesn't make for a great Chapter in and of itself. The key thing is personality - how do your marines view the galaxy around them? How do they view other Imperial factions? Do they prefer to protect civilians or ruthlessly eradicate their foes?

Working out the personality of your DIY Chapter can make a lot of choices much easier for you.

In your case, you've already said you don't like fancy ornamentation, and like to take the fight to the enemy. I could see both those traits in either Imperial Fists, White Scars or Raven Guard successors with very little change from their parent Chapters, so you might actually be further down the path I'm suggesting than I myself am right now!

[Julgolax]

If it's personality, I like to think space marines ARE protectors of mankind, not just automatons or a sword to be wielded. My chapter would think their homeworld is sacred to them (like Ithaka is to the Iron Snakes or Fenris is to the Space Wolves) and from there they patrol the systems and sectors of their segmentum. They are brutal in combat and prosecute wars ruthlessly against aliens and traitors as they should, BUT civilian casualties are severely frowned upon. I like riding the border between ferocious and civil, no chapter should be willing to slaughter innocent people unless Exterminatus is the ONLY answer.

[Disruptor_fe404]

"I like knights because they wear shiny colours" would be a poor foundation for a chapter.

Whoa there! It can totally be a good foundation for a Chapter!

Well, until you want to write an IA, that is. Then it's truly terrible.

[Ace Debonair]

If it's personality, I like to think space marines ARE protectors of mankind, not just automatons or a sword to be wielded. My chapter would think their homeworld is sacred to them (like Ithaka is to the Iron Snakes or Fenris is to the Space Wolves) and from there they patrol the systems and sectors of their segmentum. They are brutal in combat and prosecute wars ruthlessly against aliens and traitors as they should, BUT civilian casualties are severely frowned upon. I like riding the border between ferocious and civil, no chapter should be willing to slaughter innocent people unless Exterminatus is the ONLY answer.

Transposing that mindset onto a Chapter could make for quite a good read.

And then from there my next step, if it was me making this chapter, would be looking for themes that tie in well with the personality of your chapter, or ones that provide a stark contrast if you're a glutton for C&C.

For example, you could use a wild-west type theme with your marines as the only sheriffs in town, protecting the innocent and coming down like a storm on anyone who dares endanger the worlds under your watch.

Or a sort of knights-errant approach, where it is your Emperor-sworn duty to protect the planet/system/sector and the people therein, a duty that is viewed as more important than your Chapter's life or death.

Or you could use both themes. Or neither! This is the part, really, where you can find something that inspires you and draw your favourite aspects from that to give your Chapter more flavour. The possibilities are almost limitless.

"I like knights because they wear shiny colours" would be a poor foundation for a chapter.

Whoa there! It can totally be a good foundation for a Chapter!

Well, until you want to write an IA, that is. Then it's truly terrible.

Tell us why they like shiny colours (eg: 'camouflage is the colour of cowardice') and then it could work in an IA. Possibly.