Something rotten in the troops section.....

[hornywingythingy]

I was doing a comparison in my head, of what troop choices are considered good by conventional wisdom, and their points cost, and whilst I know inter codex comparisons aren't always useful, I do think it shows some of our problems.

5 plague marines, double plasma, rhino with havoc launcher (197) resilient, mobile and powerful, but require a nurgle lord to unlock and the rhino is a hell of a first blood risk.

10 csm, double plasma, rhino (205) cheap as chips, but less resilient, doesn't require a marked lord unlock, rhino still first blood risk.

4X10 cultists (200) cheap as chips reserved backfield cowerers sadly probably our most effective troop as it leaves more points for units that do damage.

5 dire avengers, holofield wave serpent with scatter laser (200) cheap scoring with a dakka battle tank, arguably one of the most irtitatingly good troops in the game.

4X3 eldar jetbikes, (204) like cultists, but more manouverable, resilient and frankly amazing.

So a few choices there all around the 200 pt mark, illustrating why our scoring except cultists is , anyone else got any examples of other 6th ed troops better off than ours?

[Iron_Within]

Shouldn't this be in the complaints thread?

[hornywingythingy]

Possibly, I thought it was divergent enough to warrant a separate discussion, but I'd bow to a moderator opinions if they thought otherwise.

[Noctus Cornix]

Our units aren't . This is a biased comparison using units from a single codex that is based around good but expensive units that comes few in numbers.

[the jeske]

 

So a few choices there all around the 200 pt mark, illustrating why our

scoring except cultists is cr*p, anyone else got any examples of other

6th ed troops better off than ours?

H-man was an Iron Warrior player. IW good. Phil Kelly and eldar player. Eldar good. etc etc etc

 

 

 

 

 

Our units aren't cra*p. This is a biased comparison using units from a

single codex that is based around good but expensive units that comes

few in numbers.

 

Want to see tau firewarriors , tau scoring suits , Plagies , necron for 200pts ?

[Noctus Cornix]

Go ahead. It doesn't prove anything aside from the fact that our units have a little competition. Doesn't mean they are bad.

[the jeske]

Go ahead. It doesn't prove anything aside from the fact that our units have a little competition. Doesn't mean they are bad.

0_o not touching the whole "PMs may not be something an AL wants to play" , what do you mean by competition . the only good thing about cultists is that they cost less then csm , csm are inferior to pms . out of the 3 troops mentioned here , non are fast , non are shoty and one is resilient . And let us remember that unlike all the other codex , our troops force us in to pre build armies. A necron player can take 5 immortals/warriors in a scyth in every list , same with 3-4 jet bikers for eldar . PMs on the other hand force us to take a nurgle lord and then we have to do something with him , besides turning him in to a tax with 3A.

Even supplemnt dex like the tau one that do force the taking of HQs , let tau players take HQs they would have taken anyway. A nurgle lord is not an auto include in to every legion or no legion list .

[hornywingythingy]

Our units aren't cra*p. This is a biased comparison using units from a single codex that is based around good but expensive units that comes few in numbers.

As the jeske has already pointed out you can do it for other dexes, its just eldar and csm are the only ones I had to hand.

[Tenebris]

Been there, tried anything, cultists, MSU Tsons even, Blastmaster Noisies and so on...sadly not one was quite up to my expectations and I agree with most of the Chaos players that the CSM codex is in dire need for a remake of the troop choices. If you play cult troops you are sidelined to a specific army list build and if you rely on generalist troops than you are crippling yourself with units that cannot stand up to the competition from the other books. A basic SM Tactical Squad outclasses many of our cult and generic options due to a wider choice in wargear, transportation and above all, chapter tactics aka traits.

 

For the basic cost of 140 points you have ten marines that have either rerolls, FnP, Scout or Hit&Run or Crusader...without counting the goodies that come with the package, grav guns, drop pods, army wide buffing characters to support them.

 

Indeed there is something rotten in our troops section 

[Fibonacci]

Shouldn't this be in the complaints thread?

yes

[the jeske]

no , that is a design question . He isn't asking why chaos stuff is bad/good , but why is there a difference in DT policy of constructing troops to both codex before [necron, GK] and after the csm dex. And it is not the "woe us , GW is hating on us" , but the actualy viable question of "what was the DT thinking". Specialy as this isn't the end of 6th ed.

[minigun762]

Shouldn't this be in the complaints thread?

 

If the point of this thread is to discuss constructive ways to fix the issue or to concede that while we might not have tier 1 troop, we have advantage elsewhere, then the thread stays.

 

If the point of this thread is to whine and complain about how unfair life is, then yes, it will get moved.

[Noctus Cornix]

Should probably move it already then.

[hornywingythingy]

Well I think its had fairly valid discussion so far, and I don't think anyone argues we have good fast attack, and usable heavy support choices, admittedly the title could be taken as a bitch, it was intended as a play on words since the first unit for comparison was plague marines.

 

But as always all things flow according to the will of the great moderatii, to paraphrase horribly a talented writer.

[daveNYC]

I think some of this stems from a design philosophy that Troops aren't, or shouldn't be, that special.  Which is fine in a way, if Troops were awesome, then what the Hell are Elites doing?  But that sets up a situation where an army with actual good troops is automatically kicked up a notch or two.  If you have to take two of something, you want that something to be either good or cheap.  Good and cheap is a bonus.

 

The other issue is that it's not just balancing the troops based on the troop, there's the problem of trying to balance troops when they're just being taken as a means to load up on dedicated transports.  I know complaining about GW's playtesting is what all the cool kids are into, but they really do seem to have problems grasping the idea that sometimes units can be overpowered not because of what they can do, but because of what additional unit they allow the player to take.

[Iron_Within]

Thanks for the clarification Minigun. On that note I will now contribute :)

 

I don't think that our Troops our that bad compared to other troops when you consider what it is they are meant to do, which is to take and hold objectives or be delivery-sytems or bubble wrap for more powerful troops.

 

Taking the Dire Avengers example, yes the Dire Avengers along with their tank (because of?) are more killy than ours. However, they are squishy as hell when it comes to holding objectives. Two flamers on that CSM squad with a Champ with combi weapon or Power weapon will be plenty to clear them off, and yes, while they can hide in their transport until the last turn and the tank is fast moving has plenty of firepower, it does not strip cover, and if you have had any sense you will have placed objectives in cover. In cover, going to ground, those 10 Cultists have better survivability than those 5 Dire Avengers, that's before considering the Marines or Plague Marines. Also, their survivability relies on the tank, which means their catapults are useless, as an Eldar player would be better off taking Guardians in this example as they are more numerous at at the 200 mark.

 

In straight killy-ness - our troops are rubbish, but straight killing power is not the aim of the game most of the time, objectives is. That marine unit can have it's Rhino block line of sight (even better if you are cleverly using going flat out to block LOS after the unit has shot), the Dire avengers don't have that.

 

Jetbikes are a harder comparison in that they have speed and are able to get onto objectives quickly for the last minute contest. But in those cases there is only three of them, you need to kill one to force a Ld check. That same Marine unit will kill one Jetbike. Random game length is a good way of scuppering the last second dash, they have to contest on turn 5 or they risk losing, in which case if it goes onto Turn 6 those guys are dead as you marines will kill them rather easily in CC, which if they are both on the same objective will be the aim (and the Eldar player would not want to assault marines in cover with 3 Guardians.

 

For holding objectives the Noise Marines unit is fantastic as well, those Jetbieks will be unlikely to get close with the Blastmaster removing all their survivability.

 

In the end, our Troops are good for one thing, playing the mission, they have the versitility your other examples lack, and we have enough bodies to grab enough objectives (rhino marines for claiming forward obectives and Cultists protecting the backfield makes a nice combination, no the Rhino won't survive but it doesn't matter it's ablative armour and for getting the MEQ into position, nothing more, if it survives the Dirge Caster will help clear objectives).

 

Lastly, the flamer, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the flamer is vastly under-valued by players and underestimated. Against MEQ yes it has limited value but against, Tau, Eldar and the like that you compared, Flamers rip through them and are dirt cheap. A Flamer marine squad is cheaper than any other and it hurts. A Flamer on that backfiend Cultist squad will make it even harder to shift. And when it gets down and dirty to the objective, the Flamer can make the difference between claiming and losing an objective.

[the jeske]

 

Taking the Dire Avengers example, yes the Dire Avengers along with their

tank (because of?) are more killy than ours. However, they are squishy

as hell when it comes to holding objectives. Two flamers on that CSM

squad with a Champ with combi weapon or Power weapon will be plenty to

clear them off, and yes, while they can hide in their transport until

the last turn and the tank is fast moving has plenty of firepower, it

does not strip cover, and if you have had any sense you will have placed

objectives in cover. In cover, going to ground, those 10 Cultists have

better survivability than those 5 Dire Avengers, that's before

considering the Marines or Plague Marines. Also, their survivability

relies on the tank, which means their catapults are useless, as an Eldar

player would be better off taking Guardians in this example as they are

more numerous at at the 200 mark.

They don't have to sit in the transport till the last turn , it is enough for them to sit in their serpent till their targets are in range . But that aside . If one unit is easier to break , easier to kill[chaos doesn't have any buff spells for units] and kills less and has a shorter range , then it is worse . Yes troops job is to be there at the end of the game and score . problem with chaos stuff is that 2/3 of their troops aren't good at staying[cultists and csm] , 2/3 of them aren't good at killing[pms/cultists and 3/3 of them are bad at speed , while other armies have units that do more then just score . fire warriros do more then just score , farsight suits do more then just scoring , same with jet bikes or necrons warriors/immortals . Even basic stuff like marines outclasses chaos units , because of the suprior mobility. The fact that those dex also have weaker troops , doesn't help us much , because compering their weaker stuff to ours , isn't good for us. And again this is all done in a BL vacuum. What troops does a 1ksons or WE dudes have compering to even the supplement codex guys?

 

 

 

 

In straight killy-ness - our troops are rubbish, but straight killing

power is not the aim of the game most of the time, objectives is. That

marine unit can have it's Rhino block line of sight (even better if you

are cleverly using going flat out to block LOS after the unit has shot),

the Dire avengers don't have that.

Do dire avangers  need it to LoS blocking transport to work? What does it say about chaos units , if they need it . Ah and let us not forget that this works for csm and pms , cultists don't get transports.

 

 

 

For holding objectives the Noise Marines unit is fantastic as well,

those Jetbieks will be unlikely to get close with the Blastmaster

removing all their survivability.

What do I have to sacriffice in an eldar army to take , let say 2 units of windraiders ? nothing . What do I have to do to get NM as troops.  An HQ slot , inability to have PMs as troops etc. Besides there are other better cover/LoS ignoring armies out there and eldar still use the bikers . why? because they are cheap and good.

 

 

 

 

 

Against MEQ yes it has limited value but against, Tau, Eldar and the

like that you compared, Flamers rip through them and are dirt cheap

meq being still the most widely played army aside , how much fire power does a chaos army lose by runing 2x2 or 3x2 flamers instead of the normal plasma . How does it change chaos ability to deal with MC/FMC builds ,and if it is substential how does the rest of the chaos build have to look it to accomodate the smaller fire power.

[Iron_Within]

I probably should have put a disclaimer at the top of my last post to say that I'm avoiding complaining and ranting like crazy, and trying to do a positive.

 

On the note of the Dire Avengers and the Wave Serpent, how quickly could a Wave Serpent Shift a unit of Plague Marines, CSM (both with LOS blocking Rhinos) in cover or a unit of cultists before the objective is clear?

 

I wasn't touching the Lord Tax with a barge pole because there is no good side to it; its a list limiter, nothing more and provides nothing the CSM army and should be in the complaint thread. But in defference to your point yes, it's there, it's a thing and it's not good, however if you're taking a lord already, it's 15 points, that's not a lot. And yes I'm reaching here.

 

In reference to your CSM/Cultists not being survivable; yes you have a point that's why I was talking about specifics - in cover etc. Are you saying that point for point, Tau Firewarriors are more survivable than Chaos Marines, or Cultists when in cover? Note I'm not adding extra's that they can get from other things buffing them as this thread is about those troop units only from the OP. I think going down buffing this etc. cannot lead to anywhere good, and briefly regarding Markerlights (as it's the obvious one as it will strip cover), target priority should be anything that have markerlights like Pathfinders and it's the role of other units to deal with them, hence me trying to leave that discussion at the door/till later.

 

DA don't need LOS block because they would hide inside, the ones in the example that is. They could, but why do that when jumping out means being at closer range than marines can tag you at, also; the firepower is the DA unit in question is minimal compared to the WS, you don't want that maneuvering to hide the unit, the priority would be preventing other units from getting the DA on an objective by shooting the hell out of them.

 

MEQ being most widely played and point out that it's down to local meta, MEQ aren't the most played in my local group, IG, Eldar and Tau are, so flamers have greater use when doing pick and play lists. I wouldn't completly drop plasma either against those lists, I would always have one unit with plasma for light vehicle hunting. But 3 flamers (two flamers one combi) against an IG blob mob or a Firewarrior unit make a nice mess of them.

[hornywingythingy]

I probably should have put a disclaimer at the top of my last post to say that I'm avoiding complaining and ranting like crazy, and trying to do a positive.

 

On the note of the Dire Avengers and the Wave Serpent, how quickly could a Wave Serpent Shift a unit of Plague Marines, CSM (both with LOS blocking Rhinos) in cover or a unit of cultists before the objective is clear?

.

Depends in the range, @ 60 inches they can do d6+1 cover ignoring s7 shots, average 4, average 1 miss, they wound on twos, so likely one marine a turn. @36" they shoot their scatter laser first, 4 shots, average 3 hits, wound on 3s, so likely one dead plague, then the shield fires, twin linked because of the scatter laser, causing an average of 4 hits, and probably another wound. Its dependant on the dice, but average two turns at 36" for one dedicated transport to kill 5 plague marines. The wave serpent gets better vs the cultists and the like since the shield is pinning, and it should usually kill a unit of cultists a turn at 36". That's the math hammer, and the rhino isn't a great los blocker vs the serpent cos its a fast skimmer, and doesn't really care about cover on marines since the ap is terrible.

[the jeske]

the problem with the serpent shield is that , if the eldar player starts our rhinos and our resilient pms will be made very slow.

 

 

Are you saying that point for point, Tau Firewarriors are more survivable than Chaos Marines, or Cultists when in cover?Note I'm not adding extra's that they can get from other things buffing
them as this thread is about those troop units only from the OP. I think
going down buffing this etc.

 

But games are not played in a void . naked csm are not walking up the board against fire warriors . If you take this view eldar suck hard , because serpents are outside source too. But even in a void csm and specialy cultists to die first . there is too much cover ignoring to make them safe in 6th. If SW , who can have +2sv tanks  and ATKNF , can't walk up the board , I doubt our csm or cultists will.

 

 

 

But 3 flamers (two flamers one combi) against an IG blob mob or a Firewarrior unit make a nice mess of them.

Tau have like 2-3 units that wipe out 10 man meq units in cover or in transports per turn ,no matter how spread , per turn . good luck using the flamers without a drop pod.

[zyl-]

At 48" we can put out a pinning, ignores cover, AP3 blast with 4 ablative wounds. 125 points. How does that compare to 125 points of fire warriors? They are falling back before they are even in range.. provided they can move vs pinning. Our troops do have unadulterated awesome.

[hornywingythingy]

Trouble is its only a blast, so likely only two wounds with good scatter.

[the jeske]

At 48" we can put out a pinning, ignores cover, AP3 blast with 4 ablative wounds. 125 points. How does that compare to 125 points of fire warriors? They are falling back before they are even in range.. provided they can move vs pinning. Our troops do have unadulterated awesome.

Ok so in a game of 5 NM vs tau . the NM have an anti cover pining weapon . awesome for those 5nm vs tau games. Now on the other hand in the 1500 or more points games . Those 5 man NM units evaporate much faster then the fire warriors do . And that is all before the tax slanesh lord , being forced to put him in somewhere [our options are slanesh+naked vs making him useful , but that costs points].

 

And as horny says , unless someone tries to play an early WWI french style army you are not going to be hiting ton of fire warriors with a small blast. That doesn't mean that NM are crap [i played them in 5th , now those were the times of crap] or that BM are bad, but it doesn't mean they are good.

I mean the flexibility alone . Sniper kroots[to kill those people who may think that grimore on a herald is a good idea] , firewarriors , suits[ally farsight , why not take them when we take suits anyway] or jet bikers[that is why we may not want to run troop suits] . Each one of those units could fit in to any tau build .

CSM are not GH , cultists are not IG blobs/vets . PMs are ok , but still get hurt by the lack of good transport and limit our HQ options. There is a lot of csm players here , people who wanted/want to play csm , but ended playing demons Because random as the army maybe , the list is more flexible [even when your more or less forced in to two builds] then csm . flexible not in the unit choice[that is more or less locked in] , but in a game play. Non of the troops chaos has[that is including the ones that weren't mentioned here] helps with flexibility. Which considering the whole change from 3.5 locked in to legion lists to the 5 and 6th dexs [who were suppose to open the whole codex for all of us] , it seems odd. I mean if the job of the gav and kelly dexs was to make use want to play mixed marked warbands , why isn't that enforced by the rules ?

[daveNYC]

I think there's one other think regarding codex design that impacts us.  GW seems to like creating a 'hook' for the army.  Some crunch gimmick that provides a theme for the army.  GK get psykers everywhere, Necrons get Gauss/Tesla and Reanimation Protocols, Eldar get Battle Focus (and Bladestorm kinda too), SM get Chapter Tactics and ATSKNF, and CSM get Champions of Chaos and VotLW.

[Tenebris]

 

At 48" we can put out a pinning, ignores cover, AP3 blast with 4 ablative wounds. 125 points. How does that compare to 125 points of fire warriors? They are falling back before they are even in range.. provided they can move vs pinning. Our troops do have unadulterated awesome.

Ok so in a game of 5 NM vs tau . the NM have an anti cover pining weapon . awesome for those 5nm vs tau games. Now on the other hand in the 1500 or more points games . Those 5 man NM units evaporate much faster then the fire warriors do . And that is all before the tax slanesh lord , being forced to put him in somewhere [our options are slanesh+naked vs making him useful , but that costs points].

 

And as horny says , unless someone tries to play an early WWI french style army you are not going to be hiting ton of fire warriors with a small blast. That doesn't mean that NM are crap [i played them in 5th , now those were the times of crap] or that BM are bad, but it doesn't mean they are good.

I mean the flexibility alone . Sniper kroots[to kill those people who may think that grimore on a herald is a good idea] , firewarriors , suits[ally farsight , why not take them when we take suits anyway] or jet bikers[that is why we may not want to run troop suits] . Each one of those units could fit in to any tau build .

CSM are not GH , cultists are not IG blobs/vets . PMs are ok , but still get hurt by the lack of good transport and limit our HQ options. There is a lot of csm players here , people who wanted/want to play csm , but ended playing demons Because random as the army maybe , the list is more flexible [even when your more or less forced in to two builds] then csm . flexible not in the unit choice[that is more or less locked in] , but in a game play. Non of the troops chaos has[that is including the ones that weren't mentioned here] helps with flexibility. Which considering the whole change from 3.5 locked in to legion lists to the 5 and 6th dexs [who were suppose to open the whole codex for all of us] , it seems odd. I mean if the job of the gav and kelly dexs was to make use want to play mixed marked warbands , why isn't that enforced by the rules ?

 

My friend, you earned a Like. My sentiment exactly. 

 

In the end MSU, horde, 10 men,...indifferent of setup we as CSM struggle. You want point for point effectiveness, you play either daemons or plague marines. The only time that my Troops section is somehow up to my standard is when I field a combination of Plague Marines with two special weapons in a Rhino, supported by Nurgle zombies to sit on objectives or to tarpit enemy units. This combinations is very effective and even Typhus, aka the tax, usually pulls his weight around. 

 

Sadly everything else is so woefully not optimized for the current meta that it is sometimes a question to play CSM or to go with daemons as main army...and leaving the CSM slot for the Helldrake alone.

 

Do you think that if they make the cross supplements. which would allow CSM and Daemons in a single army list entry, that you would actually field Chaos Space Marines of any type over daemons as troops?