Something rotten in the troops section.....

[the jeske]

To not turn this in to why chaos sucks vol. XXXX , what am trying to point out here is not something like "play demons or tau" , but the difference in the design policy [or my lack of understanding of the GW design policy as a whole]. How can the same company say that it want us want to play mixed armies [which by the way ain't a bad thing from GW point of view] and imo fail at it , while at the same time making FW legion rules which are as riggid as a 3.5 codex redone in to 6th could be ? Why can take make you want to play legion X as it would act in fluff for FW and can't do the same in a csm one ? Are supplements suppose to change that [the BL one was a bit disappointing. It would have been good when the chaos codex came out , but not now] , is the community as a whole missing something here ?

[zyl-]

Do you think that if they make the cross supplements. which would allow CSM and Daemons in a single army list entry, that you would actually field Chaos Space Marines of any type over daemons as troops?

 

That acctually relies enourmously on the specifics of the rules, as sometimes a small change can do a lot. What if 1ksons suddenly were able to get a 2++? What if berzerkers could scout or ride a chariot or get the "decapitate" rule? What if noise marines could rend? What if plague marines got a 4 or better fnp? What if heralds could roll with marines (fearless csm under the effects of a locus.. it'd be like a dark apostle that works)? What if cultists could get special rules (somewhat like zombies)?

[Excessus]

I think much of the dysfunction amongst the chaos troop choises are the overlapping expertise areas.

 

The Berzerkers are supposed to be a fearful close combat unit, that's their niche. Unfortunately, Plague Marines do close combat way better, and even Noise Marines are up there in the melee top. Thousand Sons are animated suits of armour, supposed to be nigh indestructeable. Though Plague marines do this better, and even Noise Marines with the icon does it better, while dishing out comparable damage. CSM are cheaper, but squishy when compared to Plague Marines, their main niche is being able to be taken without HQ tax. Cultists does nothing that allied IG or daemons won't do better...

 

The cult units should have been very niched units, with their own area of expertise unmatched by the other cult units..

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Get rid of Feel no pain, plague knives and special weapons on the Plague marines, and they would no longer make the cults suck in comparison.

[Tenebris]

Their roles are overlapping indeed but my main problem with our troops section is that every unit entry is far too expensive for an unit that has almost no options for transportation. The Rhino and the Land are good and all but nowadays with the game that has become a chase after Eldar skimmers, Space Marine Bikers and even after the Tau, our troops can hardly compete in this game. For troops options that require the almost mandatory Rhino and struggle to find their place in this fast paced game, which is indeed a positive shift from the trench warfare from the first months, our CSM units are regardless of setup or cult unimpressive. 

 

I say that the problem for our troop performance is not only their setup but more so the shift in the game pace, with mechanized or deep striking armies ever more present, it is easy to understand why our options appear inadequate. 

[hornywingythingy]

If only we had had lord on bike unlocks bikes as troops, jump lord unlocks raptors as troops, that for sure would help. Would only need an faq to fix too.....

[Iron_Within]

So, we hate everything yeah yeah our codex is complete garbage *insert rants ad nauseum about the terribleness of our troops and everything in our codex*

 

What troops selection from other codexes is are ours better than then? 

[Ishagu]

Not read every response in this topic, but Chaos players have NOTHING to complain about.

 

You have everything from cheap hordes, to tough as nails, fearless plague marines. Not to mention cheap (cheapest infact) and easily upgraded power armoured marines.

 

With special characters like Typhus for example, you can make cultists in to fearless and super point effective blob objective holders or meat shields.

 

Effective and varied choices. Quit complaining

[the jeske]

You know that would be as .  If I came to you in 5th ed and said . Marine players should quit to whine , Grey Hunters and RAS msu are awesome units .Both bring with them dexs that are full of  effective and varied choices .

 

And you would go "But I play ultramarines".

 

 

What troops selection from other codexes is are ours better than then?

Just marine dexs?

[daboarder]

Not read every response in this topic, but Chaos players have NOTHING to complain about.

You have everything from cheap hordes, to tough as nails, fearless plague marines. Not to mention cheap (cheapest infact) and easily upgraded power armoured marines.

With special characters like Typhus for example, you can make cultists in to fearless and super point effective blob objective holders or meat shields.

Effective and varied choices. Quit complaining

 

So yeah we dont have cheap easily upgraded marines anymore mate

Nor do we have effective and varied choicea

[hornywingythingy]

So, we hate everything yeah yeah our codex is complete garbage *insert rants ad nauseum about the terribleness of our troops and everything in our codex*

 

What troops selection from other codexes is are ours better than then?

Eldar, crons, demons (massively so for demons, of the five choices three are top heir usable units in a variety of options. Plus they come with deepstrike as std, meaning they don't need transports.)

[Iron_Within]

Sorry I wasn't clear:

I meant which Troops choice are the Chaos Space Marines Troop choices better than? Not the other way around. The other way around is easy

[hornywingythingy]

Ahh! Lol.

 

TBH, plaguies aren't too bad, its just a shame you have the lord tax. Plague zombies are good, but its a shame you have to take typhus, if it was just a nurgle sorcerer that would be awesome.

[Lucien Eilam]

I don't understand the complaints about basic CSM squads. When playing Space Marines, I'd trade my Tactical Squads for them in a heartbeat. With added CCWs and two special weapons, they manage to be both more flexible and more focused.

 

They're obviously not as good as the options that Eldar have, but that's a complaint shared by basically every other codex in the game.

[Ishagu]

 

 

Not read every response in this topic, but Chaos players have NOTHING to complain about.

You have everything from cheap hordes, to tough as nails, fearless plague marines. Not to mention cheap (cheapest infact) and easily upgraded power armoured marines.

With special characters like Typhus for example, you can make cultists in to fearless and super point effective blob objective holders or meat shields.

Effective and varied choices. Quit complaining

So yeah we dont have cheap easily upgraded marines anymore mate

Nor do we have effective and varied choicea

Yes you do. A standard csm is 13 points. For an exrtra point he can have a ccw on top of the bolter. Not to mention the marks or icons they can be boosted with.

[Agent Purple]

 

 

 

Not read every response in this topic, but Chaos players have NOTHING to complain about.

You have everything from cheap hordes, to tough as nails, fearless plague marines. Not to mention cheap (cheapest infact) and easily upgraded power armoured marines.

With special characters like Typhus for example, you can make cultists in to fearless and super point effective blob objective holders or meat shields.

Effective and varied choices. Quit complaining

So yeah we dont have cheap easily upgraded marines anymore mate

Nor do we have effective and varied choicea

Yes you do. A standard csm is 13 points. For an exrtra point he can have a ccw on top of the bolter. Not to mention the marks or icons they can be boosted with.

 

What an ignorant comment.

 

minimum cost to put 10 CSM on the field = 140 points

 

minimum cost to put 10 tacticals on the field = 140 points

 

Chaos space marines are exactly 0 points cheaper (effectively) than loyalist marines. Not cheap.

 

Chaos gets free champion, crippled by champions of chaos rule, over the tactical squad.

 

Tactical squad gets combat squads, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF.

 

minimum cost to put 10 csm on the field with extra ccw = 158 points

 

10 grey hunters costs 150 points, 8 points cheaper

 

Chaos again gets a free crippled champion.  And now that rhino's dont really work, CSM have no real good delivery system for this type of unit since we don't have drop pods, and therefore no way to take midfield or threaten melee easily.

 

Greys get counter attack, ATSKNF, and 2 free special weapons. For 8 points cheaper.

 

Chaos will never be able to mass more MEQ bodies on the field than any loyalist equivalent.

 

When you do the math on cultists, they are just worse pointed guardsmen in the same way that CSM are just worse marines.

 

Marks are pointless  too as they hike up points costs drastically while providing only a  minor (read - inefficient with respect to just buying more marines) bonus.

 

Icons are vulnerable to snipe, and to get the good (FNP) one, you need to pay the MoS tax.

 

So easily upgraded? Yeah, easily as in, it's easy to write this crap down on my army list. Good upgrades? No. In fact they shouldn't be referred to as upgrades since that implies they make the models better, when in actuality all they do is make them more points inefficient, since the upgrades are all more points than they are worth.

 

MoN shouldn't more than 2 ppm. Other marks probably 1 ppm. CSM on the whole are about 20 points over priced at minimum buy-in compared to other MEQ.

 

Having lots of bad options does not = varied.

[daboarder]

I don't understand the complaints about basic CSM squads. When playing Space Marines, I'd trade my Tactical Squads for them in a heartbeat. With added CCWs and two special weapons, they manage to be both more flexible and more focused.

 

They're obviously not as good as the options that Eldar have, but that's a complaint shared by basically every other codex in the game.

 

I don't understand the complaints about basic CSM squads. When playing Space Marines, I'd trade my Tactical Squads for them in a heartbeat. With added CCWs and two special weapons, they manage to be both more flexible and more focused.

 

They're obviously not as good as the options that Eldar have, but that's a complaint shared by basically every other codex in the game.

Why would you ever swap tacs for CSM's? please elaborate.

[Lucien Eilam]

Why would you ever swap tacs for CSM's? please elaborate.

 

Two special weapons is vastly superior to one special and one heavy. You can always fire both at full BS and your shooting is never compromised by having to fire weapons at sub-optimal targets - against anything I'm firing a krak missile at, for example, boltguns and a special weapon are probably useless or wasted.

 

For 18 points, they can all have two attacks base, which raises them into a whole other category in assault. Small disruptive units can't tar-pit them as long, and many more units become viable targets for charging. With two specials, anything charging them faces them overwatching better than any Tactical Squad, then fighting as well as an Assault Squad.

 

What would I be giving up?

 

Combat Squads, which makes hardly any difference to Tactical Squads because they can get all the same options on 2 squads of 5 and Marine players rarely run out of Troops slots.

 

ATSKNF, which is a hindrance as often as it is a bonus. The most common reason it comes into play: one last Tactical Marine survives to keep a combat going another turn instead of being swept, so I don't get to shoot at that unit.

 

Chapter Tactics, which for Tactical Marines, in my case, means one shooting phase of re-rolls to hit. The biggest loss, but I'd rather be shooting more effectively every turn, which is what you get with 2x special.

 

I play both armies. In my experience, my much-maligned Chaos Space Marines always make a bigger contribution than my Tactical Squads.

[the jeske]

 

Combat Squads, which makes hardly any difference to Tactical Squads

because they can get all the same options on 2 squads of 5 and Marine

players rarely run out of Troops slots.

false. you can run a 5 man tac with a hvy weapon . so you can do with tacs what chaos normaly does with NM , but without being forced to take a specific HQ and with a larger pool of hvy weapons.

 

 

 

ATSKNF, which is a hindrance as often as it is a bonus. The most common

reason it comes into play: one last Tactical Marine survives to keep a

combat going another turn instead of being swept, so I don't get to

shoot at that unit.

Sure thing . it is better to run away from shoting and not auto regroup  or get run down in hth , but get the option that when something catchs your csm unit [in your case a high cost also melee upgraded csm , so you will have fewer csm then a normal csm unit would run] and beats it in melee , you can run and then you get the option to shot at the unit. Now if something beats up a csm unit with melee upgrades then it is either a death star or multiple units. You won't stop those with shoting , specialy when your shoting department is smaller , because you invested in to melee upgrades.

[Lucien Eilam]

false. you can run a 5 man tac with a hvy weapon .

 

I know, that's what I said - in the case of troops, I don't really get any benefit buying a unit of 10 and splitting it vs buying 2x 5, so I wouldn't miss it if Tactical Marines didn't have the rule. How is it "false"?

 

Sure thing . it is better to run away from shoting and not auto regroup  or get run down in hth , but get the option that when something catchs your csm unit [in your case a high cost also melee upgraded csm , so you will have fewer csm then a normal csm unit would run] and beats it in melee , you can run and then you get the option to shot at the unit. Now if something beats up a csm unit with melee upgrades then it is either a death star or multiple units. You won't stop those with shoting , specialy when your shoting department is smaller , because you invested in to melee upgrades.

 

I'm really struggling to parse this paragraph, so I'm going to assume you're agreeing with me again.

 

The rest of the army might stop them shooting, even if the CSM unit they just smashed isn't up to the job. Certainly better than letting them sit safe for a turn and charge me again in the next one, which is what often happens with ATSKNF on everything.

 

Personally, I don't think I've ever lost a game for the sake of 18 points of upgrades. 40k just isn't that finely balanced.

[Brother Aiwass]

He is not agreeing, sounds like sarcasm to me. He is saying that ATSKNF is not a hindrance. SM can auto regroup after being shot and can't be roflstomped when losing in close combat. CSM not. For the same points SM have way better rules (special rule of CSM: Your champion is going to die, or evolve to a chaos spawn), better wargear (grav guns, MM, plascannon), better transports (pods, razors -I don't want razors btw, but razors are intended to maximize benefits of combat squad).

 

And you want to exchange all that just for another plasmagun. Really?

[Ishagu]

Lol Chaos players seem a bit Emo to me :-P

The truth is that the csm codex offers a huge variety of troop choices that can be unlocked through various HQ choices.

 

The marines with ATSKNF that you complain about are still overpriced and easy to kill.

At least Chaos can stock up on cheap cultists that are worth their weight in gold on the battlefield.

[Brother Ambroz]

Lol Chaos players seem a bit Emo to me :-P

The truth is that the csm codex offers a huge variety of troop choices that can be unlocked through various HQ choices.

 

The marines with ATSKNF that you complain about are still overpriced and easy to kill.

At least Chaos can stock up on cheap cultists that are worth their weight in gold on the battlefield.

Emo says the ignorant SM player, how old are you? Try playing C:CSM with all these amazing "options" you've been talking about. Try playing against your own C:SM. The only useable choices that are unlocked via HQs are NM and PMs but even they're not amazing. Zerks and TS are so bad they're not even worth mentioning.

 

Who wants cultists in a Marine force? Even if you do take marks and icons, they're still easy to get bypassed. I had a game where each of my "tac" squads was charged by tooled out wolf lords and the champ of fail rule kicked in and sure enough each squad was wiped by failed morale checks. 250+ points gone from a single bad morale check. How exactly is ATSKNF overpriced?

[AekoldHelbrass]

Sometimes it looks like some of us have some munchkin opponents or are playing tournames, and others do not. When someone would like to change ATSKNF for second special - I'd like to see who are his opponents, are they some squishy xenos or something? Playing against BA and SW taught me that being wiped out on sweeping advance is the last thing I'd like my ccw-oriented army to do.

 

I agree with original author that our troop section is not balanced internally, we have either good option or bad option, and even nothing in between. I'm tired doing homerules to fix that codex, and I do not believe GW will ever fix Chaos again. But what I would do to fix it:

 

1. VotLW gives Fearless, for 2 pts per model. Icon of Vengeance is dropped from the codex.

2. Special weapon or power weapon for every 5 models, not only for first 10.

3. Mark of Khorne as it was before, giving +1A.

4. Champions to have access to armoury of different but simple and cheap weapons, like chaws with Shred, power sword with +1 A or S or I, and so on. Plus access to have TDA or Fleshmetal. In current representation is it hard to believe that our squishy champions will be followed for long.

5. Only marked champion gets Boon Table rolls.

6. A bit off troops, Chosen 2 points cheaper and without auto-included bolter.

7. No idea what to do with Berzerkers. Moving MoK back to +1A will help a bit, making Chainaxe 1pt will help a bit too, but is there a way to make them work in current edition at all? Even if they were 1pt cheaper, it is still awful lot of points for the chance of being shot down before they come to close combat.

8. 1000 Sons. Here's the place where my imagination stops, no idea how to represent rubics with current ruleset. 2 wounds? FnP? 2+ armour? Better psychic powers for sorcerer? Allow sorc to buy more levels?

[Brother Aiwass]

For the TS, I'll go with something old.

 

Rubrics, all is dust: Only S5+ ranged wepons can wound them. In melee they're wounded as per normal rules. Plus SnP, fearless, VoTLW, inmune to poison, daemon, MoT.