Something rotten in the troops section.....

[Ammonius]

Lol Chaos players seem a bit Emo to me :-P

The truth is that the csm codex offers a huge variety of troop choices that can be unlocked through various HQ choices.

 

The marines with ATSKNF that you complain about are still overpriced and easy to kill.

At least Chaos can stock up on cheap cultists that are worth their weight in gold on the battlefield.

Tell you what:

Why not make up 2-3 1500 point lists with the CSM codex, each with different troop choices that highlight what you are talking about. Then, play 2-3 games with each army list at your FLGS (I wish you were in my town, because I could let you do what you needed with proxies, or let you borrow some of my models) and post batreps of each game.

 

Once you have generated the data and presented your findings then we will be able to easily see the hidden gems in the CSM codex that we have been missing. 

 

Please note: My intent is to encourage you to back up your statements with experience. When you come to a Chaos thread with posts like the above, I really question your motives.

[Ishagu]

For the TS, I'll go with something old.

 

Rubrics, all is dust: Only S5+ ranged wepons can wound them. In melee they're wounded as per normal rules. Plus SnP, fearless, VoTLW, inmune to poison, daemon, MoT.

 

I recently played against a whole thousand sons army in a 2k game. I didn't know what I would be facing but I happened to bring a lot of high powered template weapons.

 

My opponent had fortunate rolls, but his TS survived 3 rounds of multiple Vindicator fire, whilst killing off my drop pod Sternguard units with little difficulty. I was impressed with how they performed. Plague marines would not have performed as well in this battle.

 

I do think that they are expensive. In my opinion, the sorc should not be mandatory in every squad. He costs a lot of extra points over the basic unit...

[Iron_Within]

Post the battle report of your Space Marines vs Thousand Sons then. To make a point though; Thousand Sons are a specialised troops to kill one thing and one thing only: MEQ. A TS squad is costed in the assumption that you are fighting MEQ, fight IG, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Scout Marine armies, Orks or Tyranids and that unit is next to useless, (please for the love of gods don't mention the Sorcerer, just don't do it, really really please don't, it's a hornets nest). A standard Space Marine army in a pick up and play mode would have a challenge against TS (though if he had Assault Terminators the TS are in trouble).

[Excessus]

So you were playing right into the TS strengths, and were amazed they did good???

 

Try using TS and play against Orks/IG/Nids/DE...and so on...armies with a lot of dakka that will kill your superexpensive marines just as well as they would kill regular marines. Neither can you have any useful advantage of their ap3 bolters against them either because they ignore their armour just as well as regular bolters! Also, say hello to the wondrous TS sergeant, the aspiring sorcerer that has some very useless spells that he will kill himself using...

[minigun762]

If someone takes the time to respond back to the rest of the board showing success with Chaos, the least we could do is not tear them down for trying.

Instead of pointing to the counters of a particular unit that has met success, why not try to build on that success?

 

I've already commented before that this thread was walking a fine line. This is not the topic to voice your non-constructive comments in. That topic already exists just for that purpose.

 

[Excessus]

Well, you pay a premium points price for Thousand Sons, and their strengths are against MEQ with low-ap weapons. If you are playing against something else, there is a very large chance you won't get your points investment back for them...

[Brother Ambroz]

The problem is that success was mostly luck and playing to the units strengths. How can we properly analyze a unit without finding the units weaknesses?

[the jeske]

If someone takes the time to respond back to the rest of the board showing success with Chaos, the least we could do is not tear them down for trying.

Instead of pointing to the counters of a particular unit that has met success, why not try to build on that success?

 

I've already commented before that this thread was walking a fine line. This is not the topic to voice your non-constructive comments in. That topic already exists just for that purpose.

 

 

Well 1ksons were done [as in tested] when RunePriest wanted to remake his army for 6th, I did testing and someone else did too . That was done pre eldar/tau though. Zerker armies are limited to rush builds using multiple units of maulers and the self ally codex. They got minimaly more rounded up , but still can't deal with very good shoting and which is beyond bogus have problems with good melee units[deathstars to be more precise] and same problems with inability to deal with flyer stuff. Tyfus builds are ment for time play , doubt people want to here tips about that . The 3 LR rush builds , work like the marine ones only with weaker LR , same problems with melta and objectives taking only without POTMS to help out. The NM builds have problems with car parks , tau and eldar , demons and necron , then ones that do melee have problems with MC using lists . Out of all mixed armies the nurgle ones are the best .

[hornywingythingy]

Out of all mixed armies the nurgle ones are the best .

Did you see the csm/csm list goatboy put on bols today? It was interesting, its certainly worthy of discussion, though on topic, the scoring was four units of ten cultists.

 

"CSM Sorcerer, Bike, Lvl 3, Sigil of Corruption, Gift of Mutation, Spell Familiar

CSM Chaos Lord, Bike, Powerfist, Lightning Claw, Gift of Mutation, Sigil of Corruption, MoN

Black Legion Sorcerer, Bike, Lvl 3, Sigil of Corruption, Gift of Mutation, The Last Memory of Steve, Veteran of the Long War

Cultists X 10

Cultists X 10

Cultsits X 10

Cultists X 10

Chaos Spawn X 5, MoN

Chaos Spawn X 5, MoN

Heldrake, Bale Flamer

Heldrake, Bale Flamer

Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils

Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils

Maulerfiend, Lasher Tendrils"

 

Personally, I'm not sure what the nurgle bike lord is for, I'd have preferred oblits as the 4th heavy choice instead of him, but that's just me.

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2013/10/goatboys-monday-40k-4-lists-to-control.html?m=1

[the jeske]

list needs the lord , the sorc will be getting realy close to the enemy and spawn don't have asp champions . My problem with goat lists is that their are two folds first those are test lists and second they are ment for events he knows more about then I do [how much terrain there will be , who will be coming etc]. Also in the end one can build a same style army list with demons and it will work better.

 

 

only army list  in his article that has "hopefully" in its description :D .

[minigun762]

 

 

Personally, I'm not sure what the nurgle bike lord is for, I'd have preferred oblits as the 4th heavy choice instead of him, but that's just me.

 

I agree, I suppose he is running with the Spawn but I'd be curious if there wasn't something else you could take instead, like some Oblits or Havocs for a little fire support.

[hornywingythingy]

See, I used to run spawn rush, but I found it had too many issues with tau, and I tended to find the sorcerer did well in combat (force axe ftw) then again, I ran nurgle marked, cos the nurgle lore isn't totally made of fail, and t6 sorcerers are fun.

[the jeske]

sorc to kill squads , one probably rolling biomancy the othe telepathy . invisibility buffs his biker star and 3 models same save and if one gets iron armed he becomes an ok tank , even wihout +3inv or +2sv. sorc to kill squads and fight sgt class stuff,  lord to challange big guys and an iron arm sorc can tank an HQ without a fist class weapons as long as he iron arms himself.

[hornywingythingy]

Its certainly intrigued me enough to try mucking around with spawn again. Though I'd want oblits rather than maulers.

[Chaeron]

Maybe they're there as a distraction point? If they get close, they do well - it's just getting them there.

[hornywingythingy]

Maybe they're there as a distraction point? If they get close, they do well - it's just getting them there.

Yeah, I don't own any though, and I'm not gonna spend £135 on three when I have 6 obliterators already, plus I'm not entirely convinced on maulers.

[zyl-]

My thought: the maulers do better than obliterators here by value of the fact that once they are locked in combat, they can't be shot. If they took obliterators, which are slower, most armies can just dakka them off the board in a moment's notice. The list offers too many targets that are only really killable with heavy weapons with all those nurgle spawn and maulers. 12" a round with buffs tells me that this army IS going to run an opponent out of room by turn 2 in most cases. At least that'd be my argument for maulers over obliterators.

[the jeske]

If an army can dakka oblits off the board it can dakka maulers of the board too. and then in melee turn 2 is only true if the opposing army is medium shoty and has no counter units. if it is fast shoty like necron or eldar , or realy shoty like tau the list doesn't work so well. at the start of the game you play with 5 units , focus fire hurts this a lot and neither maulers nor spawn+bikers are FMC.

[daboarder]

Yeah I don't really see anything in that list a white scars or raven guard list doesn't do much better.

 

and the troops are still largely naff.

[minigun762]

Yeah I don't really see anything in that list a white scars or raven guard list doesn't do much better.

 

and the troops are still largely naff.

 

I don't know, Drakes eat biker armies easily and Spawn are a pretty solid counter to grav weapon spamming. Between the two, you've removed the primary advantages of running a loyalist biker heavy army.

[daboarder]

The difference is that almost every model in a biker army is scoring and cannot be tied down by the spawn or other fast units in combat due to HnR. As such you need to kill almost every model on the table (which isn't a good way to play) Conversely the bike army just needs to kill your troops. And they are faster than you, have more shooting than you and more scoring.

[the jeske]

Very true. Also the world is not made just out of chaos and sm biker lists , there are other armies too and it so happens that against a lot of armies the biker list is more flexible .

The sm biker list doesn't have to take a lot of stuff it wouldn't normaly run [unlike chaos builds] , A marine player if he finds he needs it for his enviroment , can put 3 TC on a landing pad [or 2 and some centurions] , some pods , he can BB SW in pods or IG or self ally to get different perks for his ally units .

[hornywingythingy]

I was playing with the ideas last night, struggling with insomnia again, and it makes a fairly potent 1650 list, its not amazeballs, but looks more fun than three heldrake city. Actually kept two maulers in, might try it out, proxying tervigons for maulers and see what its like, I'm not sure two maulers is enough, but I can't fit them and the oblits in 1650.

[the jeske]

fast as they may be , the problem with maulers[that is when they work , not when they get blown up] is the low A . They blow up AV stuff  that isn't a flyer nicely [but so do MC] , but against squads they lack an aoe attack .

[AekoldHelbrass]

They have lower I than Dreadnought, so you would not want to charge Dreadnought or Decimator with Maulerfiend.