Drop List support

[Urauloth]

Not to derail, but how useful are vindicators in general? I like them in theory, but when I start putting them in lists I either run out of heavy support slots for long fangs really fast or end up without the armour saturation to make a vindicator or two survivable. They're probably my favourite tank, fluffwise, and they're great minis, but I'm not entirely sure how good an investment they are unless I'm prepared to commit to building my whole force around them.

[Bulweih]

Maybe be biased here aswell, but I like them. Once you get how to deploy and use them to the most effect they're a great addition to some builds, including my droppod list.

They're a mainstay in my apoc army, kill tally is high and rising, I can only recommend them.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Not to derail, but how useful are vindicators in general? I like them in theory, but when I start putting them in lists I either run out of heavy support slots for long fangs really fast or end up without the armour saturation to make a vindicator or two survivable. They're probably my favourite tank, fluffwise, and they're great minis, but I'm not entirely sure how good an investment they are unless I'm prepared to commit to building my whole force around them.

 

I actually think they are wonderful to play with, and you don't need to build your army around them at all for them to be useful. They are plenty useful for setting up vindicators to control objectives.

 

Personally I think if you're ramming a bunch of drop pods down someones throat it's going to be hard to not concentrate on those first and foremost. 

 

The big issue (and the reason I didn't mention them) is what grey mage said... accidently scattering on your own units. As long as you're not playing a 1999+1 tournament you can always take double Heavy Supports right? 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

May not block line of save well... but empty pods can contest objectives can't they? Drop em on someone that thinks they have one.

Vehicles cannot be denial units, unless otherwise specified, such as the Big Guns Never Tire scenario, allowing LRs, preds, vindies, and whirlwinds to control objectives.

 

Edit: Nor can they claim linebreaker.

If the drop pod is part of a scoring unit they can contest objectives... 

[Wulfebane]

If the drop pod is part of a scoring unit they can contest objectives... 

Incorrect.

 

In fact, should a scoring unit be embarked in a vehicle, they are unable to contest an objective.

 

BRB, pg.123

Scoring units -

"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does Not count as a scoring unit:

- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building."

 

Denial units -

"In the Eternal Wars missions, all units (including troops) are denial units, save for a few exceptions given below:

- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a transport vehicle, or is occupying a building."

 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

 

If the drop pod is part of a scoring unit they can contest objectives...

Incorrect.

In fact, should a scoring unit be embarked in a vehicle, they are unable to contest an objective.

BRB, pg.123

>

Scoring units -
"There are a few exceptions, however, when a unit of troops does Not count as a scoring unit:
- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a Transport vehicle, or is occupying a building."

Denial units -
"In the Eternal Wars missions, all units (including troops) are denial units, save for a few exceptions given below:
- If it is a vehicle, or is a unit currently embarked on a transport vehicle, or is occupying a building."

And you'd be right. I was reading online yesterday, but the replies I read were obviously wrong. (I finally have a rulebook so I'll be more up to speed on the rules in the fuchur)

Alright.. now y'all answer me this question. Ironclad dreads.. didn't think we had access to them, however upon doing an internet search I found a thread that was talking about SWs having access to the Space Marine Dreadnought and Tank variants in the C:SM book, in a white dwarf. This, would give C:SW access to the Ironclads since they are variants of the Dreadnought, however... I don't know what the real answer is on the matter.

I feel like using Drop Pod'd dreadnoughts along with TDAWGs in Drop Pods with Combi Weapons and a squad of nasty GH's coming in on turn one would be a challenge to deal with. Especially if I go on the bottom of turn one. Flamer's and MM's on the dreads would be really nice for disposing of heavier targets and will accent the combi-weapons very well.. Then turn two I can bring in the rest of the pods that have the other GH's squads who will come in and do what they do best with lesser resistance. What do you guys think?

[Wulfebane]

Our codex only permits regular and venerable dreadnoughts. To use the ironclad, you'd have to ally with another codex to have access.

 

As to the tactic, I've never fielded dreads in my Wolves army, but others have used a dp dread to great effect.

[MeatGrinder]

I run a pod list myself and usually find it lacking a hammer. You have your podding GH squads coming down but I find you lack a strong combat unit to break whatever engages on your GH squads. Because of this Ill be adding in a couple of TWC and a TWC lord on my next shopping spree. Ive been dissapointed by Bikers before and I dont think Ill go back to taking them.

 

You can alternatively support your pods with more pods. Taking enough to have 2 strong waves seems to work well, all the etc lists this year had 5/6 pods, with some having no less than 9.

[Grey Mage]

Wrong codex, the 3rd edition codex was FAQd to allow us access to all the new SM vehicles, then they took them away.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

I run a pod list myself and usually find it lacking a hammer. You have your podding GH squads coming down but I find you lack a strong combat unit to break whatever engages on your GH squads. Because of this Ill be adding in a couple of TWC and a TWC lord on my next shopping spree. Ive been dissapointed by Bikers before and I dont think Ill go back to taking them.

 

You can alternatively support your pods with more pods. Taking enough to have 2 strong waves seems to work well, all the etc lists this year had 5/6 pods, with some having no less than 9.

Don't know how you have come to that conclusion, I mentioned earlier in the thread that my death star unit is a Wolf Lord on Thunder Wolf accompanied by two TWC units. It's just kinda pricey and I haven't got all the models I need for the Drop list yet so I haven't battle tested the death star unit a long with the Drop list. 

 

If what you are saying is that Drop lists in general lack the "hammer" then I'd agree, they do need something of that capacity.

 

I would definitely have 5-6 pods in this list.. or thats the plan. I think dropping off even a shooty Dreadnought with a MM and heavy flamer could really be deadly if it's coming in the first wave of pods along with the WG/TDAWG Combi-melta/Combi-plasma unit and first GH unit. Dropped into a critical area, I can see that really causing a lot of ruckus for my opponent. Then you would have 2 units of LFs firing long range from a nice location. Hammer unit would be for taking care of MCs or other unit that would cause trouble. I saw a battle report yesterday of a Drop list. I had never considered using them before, but this guy was using PAWG and all of them had combi flamers (I think 7 total) and they owned a unit of unit of Eldar (or DE) Beasts... I know Flamers wont be as good as Plasma for MEQ but, that's what the other units I want to drop in on turn one are for. 

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Just play tested my drop list, It was a little more of a thrown together hybrid, as I did not have all of the models I needed to do a full drop pod list... 

My list:

HQ:

Wolf Lord
Thunder Wolf mount, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Saga of the Bear, Thunder Hammer

Rune Priest
Power Armor, CotS, Runic Weapon
JotWW, LL
(w/GH Pack1)

Rune Priest
Power Armor, Runic Weapon
JotWW, murderous hurricane
(w/GH Pack2)

Elites:

WG
Assault Cannon/Chainfist, Combi-Plasma/Power Fist, Combi-Plasma/Stormshield, 2x Storm Bolter/Power Weapon
Drop Pod

Troops:

Grey Hunter Pack 1
9x GH, Power Axe, Plasma Gun, MotW, Standard
Drop Pod

Grey Hunter Pack 2
9x GH, MotW, Plasma Gun
Rhino

Grey Hunter Pack 3
10x GH, 2x Plasma
Drop Pod

FA:

2x TWC
PP/TH, CCW/SS

HS

Long Fang Pack 1
Pack Leader
4x ML

Long Fangs Pack 2

Pack Leader
3x Heavy Bolter, 2x Lascannon

Vindicator

Conclusions..

More Drop Pods: In a drop pod list, more drop pods was a must... like I said though Don't quite have all the Pods I would like as of yet. TDAWGS and Pack 3 came in first, I tried to play them a little more defensively, but my opponent who was playing blood angels made quick work of the TDAWGS with A LOT of plasma fire. They were gone by turn 2 and did nothing. Pack 3 did take quite a beating and lasted out till turn 4 where they were ended pretty swiftly. 

Vindicator: was left in reserves where it unfortunately made it out of reserves before my other Drop Pod and was subsequently destroyed the next turn by a Deep Striking Libby and his blood lance. If it would have made it up the board it may have possibly had an impact, as my opponent did not have much AT other than the blood lance libby... didn't  have any synergy with the list though.

Long Fangs: Did okay.. I have been consistently failed by my ML long fangs since I first started using em, I figured it's because it was just one pack, but I am starting to doubt the missiles. Yes on paper they are very good, I never role with them in a game. On the other hand, the star unit in this list was probably the Heavy Bolter Long Fangs. Game was "Big Guns Never Tire" with 3 objectives, one objectives was on my side (which Long Fangs Pack 2 sat one) and the other was mid field basically.. with a Hammer and Anvil deployment the HBs had plenty of range to shoot midfield, and when my buddy and opponent went to deep strike his Vanguard vets and proceeded to assault with said unit, the Long Fangs returned him the big middle finger of a no in the form of heavy bolter overwatch shots. It was brilliant. They, I think have become my new favorite unit in this list. I know in a Drop List, getting in the backfield and taking out the Long Fangs which most likely are lacking in protection will be high priority for most opponents, having the ability to stop a lot of that is really nice. I think from now on I will run a Rune Priest with Prescience along with that LFs Pack.

TWC and Thunder Lord: A very strong but expensive unit, in my experience a great death star. I'll have to try them again in a list that has more Drop Pods, but they didn't do so hot either. Granted the game was on a pool table and we were using books as "ruins" for terrain only. Not much LOS blocking structures on the board at all. Idealy I would run them up the board in LOS blocking cover and get them into CC. The inherent problem is they are so good in CC the opponent will want nothing to do with them getting there, and they will be shot up. It kinda sucks they don't come with an Invuln automaticaly, nor do they have some sort of jink like move or whatever bikes have from moving fast... it would be nice to have a rule for TWC that allowed them to dodge something at any rate.. I digress.. Lots of plasma fire and lots of failed storm shield saves about sums it up. Unit did nothing, and was a waste.

So.. all that said, for Drop Lists, and there support.. They really need something on the ground then and now that can soak up some fire, take some fire, and dish some fire back out. Termie's.. definitely aren't the answer and I think would only really shine if they get into CC the next turn after whittling down whatever unit with Combi's and heavy weapons. Maybe Land Speeders but if you're going to deep strike you will have to wait a turn or so. There is always the more troops and pods option, however if playing a match without much LOS blocking cover.. certain weapons will thin them out quick. However saturation of troops does work well for us. Right now, I am considering ditching the Pod'd TDAWGS for Pod'd Dreadnoughts. 2 Dreadnoughts in Pods is not going to be that much more expensive points wise than a Unit of Kitted out TDAWGS and IMO will be slightly more survivable. They bring a ton of more fire power and can soak up a bit more as well, they can be used a LOS blockers for your troops they are supporting, and can get a nice cover save from the Drop Pod they arrive in. With Weapons like ACs, PCs, and MLs they bring a lot of complimentary hurt to bolters and plasma guns. Of course an opponent with Aircraft is really going to make your day suck, but if they're taking out your Dreads they aren't taking out your troops. If the Dreads survive to see another round though.. you're in a great position, and hopefully you'll be able to get your troops into CC round 2 to prevent taking any further fire. I wouldn't say tanks are as much of a threat to the Dreads as Flyers pose... You can very well drop in a MM Dread with a Pack with MMs and waste whatever needs to be wasted. 

I'm kind of starting to feel like CC Deathstars have suffered the same hit CC Dreads have suffered. It is very easy to shoot anything to do in this edition. Good and bad thing I suppose. I wish I could find a way to make my Rune Priest a little more survivable in CC, I know it's not his role, but it sucks getting your rune Priest challenged when he has no Invuln saves at all. 
 

[Rift Blade]

@ the OP-I'm assuming you've seen this already or was posted earlier in the thread, but get 2 more Drop pods (gives you 5)& give them to your LF-deploy them empty. This lets you bring in your 1st three drop pods with everything in them on turn one. Did you try moving your Rhino forward as fast as possible & put your TWC behind it to give them a cover save? I've played similar lists & found that you have to be ultra aggressive. Anything that is not a LF needs to move forward as much as possible turn one in order to give your opponent as many targets as possible. Don't worry about shooting with anything but LF's. Move & run all other units. This should let your TWC be in charge range of something turn 2.

 

Like the HB LF's. Will have to try it. My only other suggestion is spread your WG out to your other packs & scrap up the points to replace the the WG pack with another GH pack. By adjusting pack sizes to allow for Termies in the Drop pod(& yes unfortunatley a WGPL in PA for the Rhino GH's) it should not be much. Play another game or 2 with your list & then make some decisions. Good luck.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Hail Wolf Brother!

Yes, the plan was to take 5 Drop Pods when I designed the list. I have four, at the time of the game only 3 are built, and after I get the 5th pod I may try the list again and see what is different. I did move my TWC and Lord up behind the Rhino moving 12" each turn, however the Rhino was exploded by Plasma Gun fire turn 4 and the TWC and Lord unit was already being shot at by a unit that deep striked and moved up from behind. In all honesty though, I designed a new list that I'm pretty excited about. 

HQ:

Rune Priest
CotS, Runic Weapon, Power Armor
LL, JotWW

Rune Priest
Runic Weapon, Power Armor
JotWW, MH

Rune Priest
Runic Weapon, Power Armor
Prescience, (other book power)

Elite:

Dreadnought
Plasma Cannon, CCW/HF
Drop Pod

Dreadnought
A/C, ML
Drop Pod

Troops:

GH Pack 1
9x GH, Plasma Gun, MotW, Standard, Power Axe
Drop Pod

GH Pack 2
9x GH, Plasma Gun, MoTW, Standard Power Axe
Drop Pod

GH Pack 3
10x GH, 2x Plasma Gun
Drop Pod

GH Pack 4, 
10 GH, 2x Plasma Gun
Drop Pod

GH Pack 5
10x GH, 2x Plasma Gun, Plasma Pistol, MotW, Standard, Power Axe
Drop Pod

HS

Long Fang Pack 1
Pack Leader
3x Heavy Bolter
2x Lascannon

Long Fang Pack 2
Pack Leader
4x Missile Launcher
1x Lascannon

7 Drop Pods will allow me to throw down 4 drop pods of nastiness on turn one and with the fire power on those Dreads I should be able to do a lot of damage when they come in. I would feel sorry for my opponent if I  get turn 2 with this list. I think I'll have the 2 rune priests come down in Drop Pods while the last Rune Priest (who will probably be my Warlord) will stay back with Long Fang Pack 1 to really make them nasty.