Bounding Overwatch with Noise Marines

[dur3ndal]

So I'm about to start a new army, and I'm torn between a Salamander successor chapter or a Slaaneshi raiding party. I'm leaning towards Chaos, I just don't know how viable my gameplan is. How does this sound -

 

CL with MoS Leading a Cultist horde with flamers

 

Sorc with MoS Leading a Cultist horde with flamers for Symphony

 

4 squads of  5x or 6x Noise Marines with 3x or 4x Sonic Weapons and 1x Blastmaster, and maybe Power Swords/LCs.

 

 

That's the core of the army. The basic plan is that I use the HQs and hordes to screen the Noise Marines, hopefully even using the hordes to give the NM a 5+ cover (that the enemy can't use due to the sonic weaponry). I send the hordes against whatever needs to be tarpitted, or 2+ armor save units. The Noise Marines deploy with good firing lanes, and if they have to move I move 2 squads at a time, with the other 2 in a support by fire position (taking me back to my infantry roots).

 

Thoughts? I'd probably throw in more CC units, either a melta raptor squad or deepstriking termies, maybe daemon allies, to try and threat overload. Or maybe a maulerfiend/helbrute rush as well. Maybe swap out Sorc with Huron for the D3 infiltrate to push the noise marines up turn 1.

 

I want to do this army. I have a cool idea for how to convert my noise marines, and fluff to back it up, but I just don't want it to suck. Thanks for any advice!

[Ammonius]

Check out this thread:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/271966-making-noise-marines-scream/

[the jeske]

In general , too few shots from just 20-24 models . If you want to use BM take 5 dudes . If you want to use SB take 8-10 dudes.  If you do melee take 8-10 syren and no other sonic weapons.

[dur3ndal]

I'm not sure I understand the benefit of taking a larger squad for SB. What'd be the difference between 2x 10 man NM squads and 4x 5 man NM squads? At most 2 sonic weapons? I guess I'm comparing this to the amount of firepower I'd get from an equivilent amount of loyalist marines. 20 tactical marines gets you 4x special or 2x special and 2x heavy, and 14 bolter shots. That's vs 4x Blastmasters (IMHO better than any special weapon or heavy weapon loyalists get, for the points) and 24-48 pinning, ignores cover bolter shots.

 

Edit - To compare like to like, my hope is that with MSUs to minimize the need to reposition and increase flexibility, NM's can outshoot an equivilent point value of tactical marines. I don't have the new SM codex, so I'm not sure about how many tactical marines you could get for 600 points, but I'm guessing it's about 3, 3.5 squads with upgrades and special weapons.  I think NM stand very good odds in that firefight, especially with cover factored in.

 

My hope is that by using MSUs I can maintain a base of fire even if I have to reposition my forces. Wouldn't Tacs or other MEQ have to come into that 24 inch killzone of the sonic blasters to deal with the blastmasters destroying them at farther than that?

[crucial]

Firstly, this sounds like a good enough concept army right there. Which is a good enough reason in itself IMO...

 

The list you mentioned had 92 infantry models in it. Huron makes a bit of sense but you still need that MoS lord - What about allying BL for that 3rd HQ. Use a cultist squad for the manditory troops choice. Maybe a 3rd cultist squad for that HQ? One of the main advantages of this csm dex is TEQ and MEQ combined.

 

I'll be watching this thread to read the reactions. It seems like the reactions may not be favourable to a list that goes all in such as this. The list will almost definately be better than the sum of its parts...

[Phytoon]

I agree about Huron being a good choice for this list. If you take him and your MoS lord in the Primary Detachment, and your sorcerer in the Allied Detachment, you can run the two HQs you want while still being guaranteed an infiltrate. 

 

So what Jeske is getting at is this: blastmasters are really gods-damned expensive, and will mostly have a different target priority than sonic blasters. Therefore, if you want a blastmaster squad, it should be minimalist so you don't spend a bunch of points on guns that aren't going to be used. Keep the five guys with bolters, just buy a single blastmaster and have the other four guys cheer for him. If you want sonic blasters, their strength lies in volume of fire, so you'll be wanting ten man squads. This is where Huron comes in, because you get to infiltrate D3 infantry, so if you maximize the size of a single squad, you can infiltrate as many dudes as possible, even if you roll only 1 squad. 

 

Basically, if you group together a blastmaster and some sonic blasters, and the blastmaster shoots at a target 25-48" away, the blasters are going to just stand there and watch. If you put together a big squad of sonic blasters with one or two blastmasters then infiltrate them, when the sonic blasters fire, they'll be enough to handle most units, and the blastmaster won't be too helpful. In either case, you're spending points for weapons that are going to be a little less than optimal.

 

So to summarize some of the conclusions found in the Making Noise Marines Scream thread by Bonzi, you'll benefit most from approximately 1 squad of 5 Noise Marines with a blastmaster per 500 points of your army. So 2 of such squads in a 1000 point list. Personally, I like to run two squads from 500 points up, and add more when I get to 1500 or so. As for the sonic blasters, they're tricky to recommend because they require the unit to be mostly static AND at 24" range. 

 

But I do like Cultists, man. So many people underestimate their usefulness that it's almost sad. Just don't bring squads smaller than 20 if you expect them to live for a while.

 

Anyway, the list sound decent. Aside from suggesting the same things that get recommended for every chaos list, all I'd recommend is that Huron. Or maybe a Daemon Prince instead of the sorcerer, but those guys are crazy expensive.

[Emperors Immortals]

I tan a very similar list, thanks to the linked thread above, I got 15 'nettes and herald for CC, dropped my cultists and CC MM units. Now I'm winning and soon ill contribute resilys etc.

 

The main advantage to msu bm. is mutually supported fire lanes to enforce a larger kill zone while making enemy assaults less effective I feel.

 

I'm thinking of dropping my bikes for spawn and a mauler, it should work well.

[dur3ndal]

 

So what Jeske is getting at is this: blastmasters are really gods-damned expensive, and will mostly have a different target priority than sonic blasters. Therefore, if you want a blastmaster squad, it should be minimalist so you don't spend a bunch of points on guns that aren't going to be used. Keep the five guys with bolters, just buy a single blastmaster and have the other four guys cheer for him. If you want sonic blasters, their strength lies in volume of fire, so you'll be wanting ten man squads. This is where Huron comes in, because you get to infiltrate D3 infantry, so if you maximize the size of a single squad, you can infiltrate as many dudes as possible, even if you roll only 1 squad.

Basically, if you group together a blastmaster and some sonic blasters, and the blastmaster shoots at a target 25-48" away, the blasters are going to just stand there and watch. If you put together a big squad of sonic blasters with one or two blastmasters then infiltrate them, when the sonic blasters fire, they'll be enough to handle most units, and the blastmaster won't be too helpful. In either case, you're spending points for weapons that are going to be a little less than optimal.

So to summarize some of the conclusions found in the Making Noise Marines Scream thread by Bonzi, you'll benefit most from approximately 1 squad of 5 Noise Marines with a blastmaster per 500 points of your army. So 2 of such squads in a 1000 point list. Personally, I like to run two squads from 500 points up, and add more when I get to 1500 or so. As for the sonic blasters, they're tricky to recommend because they require the unit to be mostly static AND at 24" range. .

Hmm, that makes sense. I think I'd still run mine with sonic weapons, for a few reasons. Firstly because I think that they're badass. Secondly, I look at the sonic weapon has a tremendous utility. For example - It's statistically superior to Inferno Bolts, because it'll kill roughly as many MEQ as they do per volley at 12-24, and it ignores cover. But on top of being excellent at killing MEQ, it'll also decimate GEQ, and it's not too shabby at slaying TEQ with weight of fire, too. I dunno, for me, it just seems like a no brainer upgrade. I end up spending 36 points to give each of my 4 squads the bolter fire of a full tactical squad, and it's pinning and ignores cover. While that's more expensive than a 5th blastmaster, I think at a certain point you hit diminishing returns. So while blastmasters are awesome, they are not a do everything weapon. Sonic blasters cover the niches that blastmasters might struggle with, IE true hordes and TEQ. I think that's worth it, considering they're the backbone of my army, the main offensive punch.
 

The more I think about it, the more I definitely agree that Huron is worth more than a sorcerer. Especially with his random psychic power. While the Slaanesh powers are great, I don't think getting that extra STR or maybe getting a couple maledictions off is comparable to infiltrate and the CC punch he brings.

Given the aggressive nature of this list, would Raptors with Melta be better than Oblits for tank hunting? They could then push into ranged squads if they survive their deepstrike. Maulerfiends could also help plug the anti-tank niche. A pair of them, with a pair of helbrutes for distraction/CC punch, would only be what, 450?

[the jeske]

 

What'd be the difference between 2x 10 man NM squads and 4x 5 man NM squads?

cost. number of slots taken. easyness with which you give up first blood.

 

 

 

IMHO better than any special weapon or heavy weapon loyalists get, for the points

I take it is on tacticals and not counting options like transports .No they are not realy that good. small template still hits like a dude and a half per turn , the no cover thing is cool and with the change to blast vs tanks the BM is not totaly worthless when shoting those [unless they are fliers] , but in general it is worse then 2 plasma.

 

 

 

I think NM stand very good odds in that firefight, especially with cover factored in.

Most deaths come from normal weapons anyway , so cover doesn't play that much of a role +there is a tons of armies that won't give you cover.

 

 

 

Given the aggressive nature of this list, would Raptors with Melta be better than Oblits for tank hunting?

no. bikers > raptors and you still need oblits or oblits/havocks as long range.

[Emperors Immortals]

How do you think 4 las havoks + bodies compares to 2 oblits jeske?

[the jeske]

Tested pre tau codex , they werent resilient enough for my taste and bit too static. Preds were better then them . Right now with tau and serpent shield 5 man suppose units die too fast . Marines can run such units , because they can do drop and pop with drop pods. Some people dislike suicide units , but there is a world of difference between droping in killing something and then dieing vs dieing doing nothing , because your opponent went first . where one is 1 for 1 , the other is what we call 0 for 3 [1 for being killed , 1 for lowering your own army killiness without doing anything and 1 for the next turn where your opponent can focuse fire easier] .

[crucial]

Im planning on using a bastion for any havok squad I take. Makes then all but immune to enemy fire and gives a squad (in this case one of the blastmaster squads) a high vantage point, a cover save and a quadgun that can intercept deep strikers... All for 125pts. 75pts if you dont want the quad.

 

Ive painted ooe up and cat wait to use it. If the bastion remains standing all game thats 20-28 high quality shots depending on game length. The only way I see making expensive las-havoks work imo...

[Emperors Immortals]

Pretty much what I'm seeing. It's too bad, thematically i want havoks, like a lot of people. I'll just have to counts as fir a bit longer.

[dur3ndal]

 

 

What'd be the difference between 2x 10 man NM squads and 4x 5 man NM squads?

cost. number of slots taken. easyness with which you give up first blood.

Yeah, the first blood thing I can see, but the cost difference is only 20 points. I can see the advantage of shaving those points, but I think that given the inflexibility of NM squads, breaking them up into 4 squads is much more of a benefit, because it eases the move or shoot problem.

 

I take it is on tacticals and not counting options like transports .No they are not realy that good. small template still hits like a dude and a half per turn , the no cover thing is cool and with the change to blast vs tanks the BM is not totaly worthless when shoting those [unless they are fliers] , but in general it is worse then 2 plasma.

I gotta say, I don't agree with this. A blastmaster gives you twice the range, the ability to instant kill, bypass any save that MEQ would get (if I were going up against plasma, I would DEFINITELY keep my MEQ in cover), hit multiple models, and Pen anything short of AV14. That's incredible to have in one package. It's a mini Battle Cannon that ignores cover, and just think about the fear that Battle Cannons invoke. With a small blast and double the range, you're gonna generate a lot more hits a game than with a pair of 24" rapid fire weapons that get hot, and they're much better hits on anything short of TEQ.

 

 

Most deaths come from normal weapons anyway , so cover doesn't play that much of a role +there is a tons of armies that won't give you cover.

I don't think most players would agree with this either. In my experience, the vast majority of the damage my force does comes from Special and Heavy weapons. Also, there are armies that live and die by cover, and think about how common it is to come against an Aegis nowadays. Being able to completely shred those 2+ or 3+ cover save GEQ armies from up to 48" away is huge.

 

 

 

 

I'm leaning away from Havocs too, even though they're some of my favorites. I just don't think LC are dependable enough at punching through armor. It's all about Melta. 

[the jeske]

 

and just think about the fear that Battle Cannons invoke

That stoped being true around 3.5 . Battle cannons have the same problems BM have , only their template is bigger . Again with a BM your hiting 2 dudes with a good scatter , with a slightly worse one your hitting one dude . For much higher cost then 2 plasma.

 

 

 

Also, there are armies that live and die by cover, and think about how common it is to come against an Aegis nowadays

armies that live and die due to having/not having cover stoped being viable as soon as cover ignoring tau arrived in 6th ed. And they weren't that good , when the helldrake came either.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think most players would agree with this either.

Ask a demon , tau or eldar player what kills his units . Ask a sm player why his grav armed bikes are so good now , why centurions are so good .

 

 

 

Yeah, the first blood thing I can see, but the cost difference is only

20 points. I can see the advantage of shaving those points, but I think

that given the inflexibility of NM squads, breaking them up into 4

squads is much more of a benefit, because it eases the move or shoot

problem.

It doesn't you can infiltrate 2 units , if lucky , with 4 units 1 unit [minimum] does nothing for 1 turn. And that is when your lucky , dimnishing returns hurt the smaller squads a lot more .

[dur3ndal]

I don't think we can say that cover has just ceased existing or mattering in 6th ed 40k. Bolstered Camo Cloaked Scouts in the new SM codex look like they're becoming quite popular as objective holders and harassers. Aegis defense lines are still very common in my meta as well. Being able to deny poor armor save armies any kind of save is still a huge benefit. Not everyone plays against Tau every time. Or even against Chaos.

 

As far as small blast only hitting 1, or maybe 2 guys. Yeah, that does happen, but I wouldn't say it's that much more common than the opposite of getting a lot of hits. Maybe at the tournament level, but for the average player I don't think it's fair to say you'll be averaging 1 hit a turn.

 

I'm confused - aren't Grav weapons Special Weapons? I don't understand your point. Most of the examples you listed aren't shooting their basic weapon, but upgraded weapons.

 

The infiltrate isn't a key part of the game plan. It'd be nice to get some flexibility for first turn shooting, but the whole point is that with having MSU squads I can keep the hurt flowing even if I have to reposition. Even if there's a unit in the back field, with the 48" blastmaster range, unless I'm doing a very poor job, they'll have something to shoot at turn 1.

[the jeske]

Yeah, that does happen, but I wouldn't say it's that much more common than the opposite of getting a lot of hits

 why would people keep their models close [against chaos which has helldrakes],just as offten as spread apart ?

 

 

I'm confused - aren't Grav weapons Special Weapons? I don't understand

your point. Most of the examples you listed aren't shooting their basic

weapon, but upgraded weapons.

0_o the BM is not a basic weapon. Technicly neither is the SB as you have to buy it too , but I can let that one slide .