[TA]Typher Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/Codex_zpsd3330318.jpg “With a thousand such warriors I could see the doors of hell itself cast down.” -Imperial Navy Admiral Jui Lotan as he watched the Dark Angel's first company break the Iron Warriors siege at Therexia IV “What is it to be a Dark Angel? It is to be the first Legion, the honoured, the Sons of the the Lion” -Excerpt from the Book of Swords, read during the rites of passing A ongoing work in Progress. Praise be onto him on Terra. ….. man, I'm a nerd. Intro Edit: Brothers, as you know this is a work in progress. I've been slowly expanding it absorbing more and more information and feedback from you guys. If you are a member of the Elite DW or just have some info/feedback shoot me a forum email or just post here and we'll either add it or discuss it. As always you guys are the best. Hi guys. Some of you may know me, some may not. For the sake of time I'll just say that I love the Deathwing and pretty much only play them. With the addition of 6th edition and changes in the games meta due to things like new, hard hitting units like the Wraith-knight, cheaper basic troops for shooting codex's like the Tau and new rules for units like Eldar's rending, the Deathwing has seen a decline in versatility and survivability. However we have gained some new rules. These, while not horrible or useless, haven't followed the curve that other codex's have enjoyed. My point in posting this is to help flesh out new ideas, while giving new (and old) players a resource to assist them in performing better with a solid Deathwing List. I know negativity sometimes dwells on the internet, so I'll be the first to say that I'm not a pro. I'm sure I've made a mistake or two (or three). If I did let me know, I'll gladly change it or point out my reasoning. My ideas or conclusions might not match your own. It's OK, I accept that. If you have an idea you want added let me know. I'd like a more comprehensive work and I'm sure others would too. Take what you will from this and discard the rest. If you have had success doing something different that's ok too. I'll gladly add others info to this if they want me too. Also note this is a work in progress (and always should be). For numbers crunching I've used http://www.heresy-online.net/ which has a pretty great math-hammer calculator. Try it out. Index: The Fallen Solemn, taciturn, brooding, relentless, fearless. These are all words to describe those in the Deathwing Dark is there duty and long is their path. You see the 1st company harbors one of the biggest secrets in the galaxy. The burden is heavy and even if they were not re-forged in the Lion's stoic image the weight of it would drive them to being grim. You see not all Angel's lost during the great Heresy claim the Lion or the Imperium as their master. Lost in the twisted hand of the warp these traitors return, appearing at seemingly random times and places. Some raise armies and fight against the Imperium. Some try to hide among the humans. Others turn to the renegade legions for safety. It matters not where they go or who they serve. They are the Fallen and they must be found. PART I 1.Pros/Cons 2.Special Rules 3.HQs Belial Chaplains librarians Asmodai Ezekiel Azrael Company Masters 4.Special Units Deathwing Command Squads5.Elites Deathwing Knights Dreadnoughts 6.Troops Deathwing Terminators7.Fast8.Heavy Land Raiders Misc Vehicles PART II 9.Tanking 10. List making Single Land Raider Double Land Raider Foot Slogging Mixed Lists 11. Deployment12. Alpha Strike 13.Wargear Why the Deathwing. Pros and Cons. Acceptance into the Deathwing Like all Elite the members of an Astartes Terminator unit candidates are selected for their martial abilities and status within the Chapter. Unlike other Astartes units Members are also picked for their unintentional discovery of the Fallen. While never planned, as the Chapter takes great strides to separate the uninitiated from potential exposes, this can happen if missions go astray or the wrong paths get crossed. While not the ideal way to enter the 1st Company the only other option is what to do with the misbegotten Initiated is unthinkable, as the knowledge gained much be carefully watched. ”Knowledge is Power. Guard it well” It's also important to note that the within the Deathwing there are circles within circles. Where a simple chain of command might be clear to some.. it is not always the case. And those initiated might not be known to all. (AoD) All inspire to the ranks of the Deathwing, but not all are allowed to join them. Tech-marines can never been a member as their connection to MARS is always looked at with suspicion. Guarding entry is Grand Master Librarian Ezekiel and nothing escapes his sight. Pros: 1. Great Armor. Tactical Dreadnought Armor or Terminator Armor is without a doubt the best armor a marine can have. Fielding a whole armor of this is amazing. Having an army that can weather a brutal storm of fire, when others would die then deliver a punishing counter blow is really fun to play. Plus watching your opponent's look of fear grow when 20 terminators DWA right up in his face. 2. Great close combat ability. With pretty much your whole army equipped with at least a power fist things tend to die when they fight the DW. There are very few units that can stand against a DW assault phase and live . The versatility here is amazing, vehicles, monstrous creatures, troops HQs.. everyone dies to the fists of the 1st company. 3. Relentless heavy weapons. Moving, shooting your heavy weapon and then charging has to make anyone smile. 4. Fearless. Never having to take pinning checks, moral or fear tests can guarantee your troops are moving and fighting. 5. Special Rules. While not enough to match the current meta of 6th, Split Fire, Vengeful Strike and Deathwing Assault all add to the viability of a pure DW list. Cons: 1. Low model count. Let's face it being outnumbered is always going to happen. This can lead to serious uphill battles when multiple objectives are in play. 2. Unit cost. Coming in at 44 points a model without upgrades we face a cost that most other codex's never have too. Besides contributing to a low model count, this also brutally dictates the units available for your list. Things like Dreadnoughts, which are part of DW fluff and a cool option usually go by the wayside just due to the lack of points. 3. Shooting. DW is not know for it's shooting. Even with the Vengeful Strike rule our firepower leaves a lot to be desired. With this said you need to really focus on what HAS to die now when shooting instead of just trying to shoot everything. 4. Lack of mobility. Unlike the Ravenwing, Eldar or Tau battle suits, the Deathwing is basically a foot slogging army. Sure you can Deepstrike closer and take a Land raider as a transport, but at the end of the day a very mobile army can stay out of your charge range without much of a problem. 5. Lack of units. Unlike a mixed wing list the units available to you are fairly limited. The Deathwing is pretty clear what is and isn't part of the DW. While this sounds like a bad thing it the options for the individual units isn't bad and can almost make up for this. “Hard is our armor and deep is our wrath.” -Deathwing Battle Chant. Vengeance Strike: The addition of this rule added to the firepower of the the DW's initial assault, but this alone isn't ground breaking or overpowered and doesn't guarantee you'll cripple your opponent. To get the most from this ability you'll need to hold your shooting units in reserve. IE: not Deathwing Knights of Hammernators. Split Fire: I really like this rule more and more. While it isn't always as important for weapons like Plasma cannons, assault cannons or heavy flamers, the CML's benefit greatly from it. I tend to run CMLs and no longer having to waste anti-infantry shots (storm bolters) on vehicles is a big boon. It's important to note that you don't always have to split fire the heavy weapon. This ability can also be used to “tag” two units, thus letting you shoot with a majority of your shots at a distant target and then charge a closer unit that only 1 of your storm bolters fired at. Deathwing assault: With the poorly written addition of this rule, I wavered on it's usefulness. It was hard to tell if it was better or worse than previous versions. With the clarification in April it seems that it is subpar to previous editions as now we have to have things on the board. This can be tricky as placing too little on the board can cause you to lose if you're not careful. That's ok. We're Deathwing and although it's not perfect we'll make it work. Dropping in on turn turn 1 can really help you coral mobile armies like Eldar or bike lists. Dropping in on turn 2 can add a whole turn of survivability for your troops. It's hard to say which you should do, but I find either is good. Your list will help you decide which turn you'll probably want to drop in. ”Talk now or talk later it matters not. I will inflict such pain that you will regret your existence either way” -Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain Israfil during the interrogation of Field Marshall Bylne. As Deathwing players we have a lot of options. From the super-cheap support class of the Librarian to the Master of the Unforgiven himself. While you can play your list anyway you want.. some characters do have better synergy than others. Belial, Master of the Deathwing. A must have if you want to field all Terms. Sure you can take Azrael instead, but then that opens a whole list of problems regarding transport and what unit to attach him to and wasted special rules that we won't go into here. Needless to say Belial complements a pure DW list more. The good. Deepstriking without scattering. This ability can really help define your list as you can guarantee the key position he and his unit land. With sufficient firepower and positioning you can inflict tremendous damage. Teleport homer. While this wargear runs contrary to using his non-scattering ability to DWA as he has to be on the board BEFORE they can use it.. IE: if he DWA's anyone that uses his homer can't DWA. Coming in piece meal by placing addition units into regular reserve can lead to your low model count being killed one at a time. However, using the Homer with Belial starting on the board and DWAing on turn two lets you move Belial up the board and surround him with troops in turn two. While I don't usually do this, it's not a bad idea with proper positioning as Brother March10k brings up you can build a irresistible force that lumbers up the field. Of course DWAing in on turn 2 is a must as you have to DWA at the beginning of the movement phase unless you are playing defensive and only DWAing for the vengeance strike, Neither tactics are wrong. The bad. He doesn't have eternal warrior. In a unit that can easily fight enemies with S8 attacks I find he doesn't always synergize with the unit. Having to refuse a challenge is hard sometimes, but often a necessity. Sometimes this can't be avoided unfortunately as refusing would just direct those attacks against your scoring unit and help ensure that you will not win the combat. This basically helps create a spiral in which each turn you lose more and more troops, ensuring you lose combat over and over until you have no choice but to accept the challenge. Fortunately DW terms are pretty good at CC so this isn't always the case. The ugly. Loadout. This is a matter of much debate here and like the Deathwing themselves often we are all stubborn how we field Him, myself very much included. Some prefer the Sword of Silence and a Storm Bolter, others a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield and some even use lightning claws. All have good qualities. Lets go over them. 1.Lightning claws. Gives an addition attack for a total of 4 (5 on the charge). This is a great option if you know you are fighting units with a 3+ armor save. In my experience this isn't always the case. 2.SoS/SB. It gives 3 attacks (4 on the charge), always wounds on 2s and is AP3. This also gives precision shot on a 5+, which can be useful if you are fighting armies like guard. I find that most of the time my strength 4 SB just can't guarantee things will die to it. We'll go over that in a second. The SoS on the other hand is in the same boat as lighting claws to me. Sure it can be great if the circumstances are right (IE enemies with 3+ armor and an I lower than 5). This lets Belial strike first and thin out the enemy before they get to strike. Not a bad thing. When accepting a duel with a Powerfist Sergeant this can give you the advantage as you strike before him. Against higher initiative enemies like Eldar, or weak CC units like Tau that have little chance to hurt you or against vehicles it's beneficial abilities are wasted. I'm not saying that it's bad in those events, just that it doesn't have benefits over the TH/SS or LC. 3.Thunder hammer/Storm Shield. The improved invulnerable save can make a big difference against things that insta-kill him (we'll discuss that in detail in TANKING), and gives him more survivability in general. The thunder hammer usually wounds on 2+ but at the cost of striking last, which isn't always a factor (see above). In addition it is AP2 and can insta-kill most Hqs and units in the game. It has a much better chance to destroy vehicles with it's higher strength and adds +1 to the vehicle pen chart. BOOM! I also find that having Belial tanking shots for the squad can save models, which in such a low model count list can make a huge difference (See TANKING). This is my personal preference of course either are good and it's up to you which you take. Let's do some numbers crunching. Vs A basic Tau Fire Warrior Lightning Claws Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 88.89% Wounds: 2.37 Unsaved Wounds: 2.37 Models Killed: 2.37 Options: Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour Hammer Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Unsaved Wounds: 1.667 Models Killed: 1.667 Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill SoS Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Unsaved Wounds: 1.667 Models Killed: 1.667 Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2 As you can see the LC excel vs lower toughness enemies with armor no better than 3+. The Hammer and SoS tie for in killyness, with initiative being the only factor. If you really want to know... 10 firewarriors attacking have a 27% chance to kill 1 term. This falls only to 22% if the SoS kills 2 model. Not a massive savings. LC's dominance continues against marines but the LC's ratio lowers and grows closer to the SoS and TH's ratio. Vs Marines (T4, 3+ Armor) Lightning Claws Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 75% Wounds: 2 Unsaved Wounds: 2 Models Killed: 2 Options: Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour Hammer Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Unsaved Wounds: 1.667 Models Killed: 1.667 Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill SoS Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Unsaved Wounds: 1.667 Models Killed: 1.667 Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2 The more the enemies toughness increases the closer these three weapons get, until T5, which the SoS and hammer take the lead, tieing in killyness (Yes I made up this word). Again, the only difference between the SoS and TH is initiative. 10 marines have a 41% chance to kill 1 Term. If the SoS does follow averages killing two marines will drop that return percentage down to 33% chance to kill 1 Term. While 8% is good, it's not earth shattering. As you can see here against the more common enemies you'll face all three are relatively close, with the LC slightly ahead against weaker troops. These stats start to change dramatically when facing tougher or high value opponents. Vs Nobs (2W, 5+Invul, FNP) LC Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 75% Wounds: 2 Saved Wounds: 0.667 Unsaved Wounds: 1.333 Options: Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour SoS Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 0.556 Unsaved Wounds: 1.111 Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2 Hammer Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 0.556 Unsaved Wounds: 2.222 Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill As you can see here both the LC and SoS manage to inflict 1 wound each, while the TH kills 2 models. Against Nobs with at least 3 attacks each this can make a huge difference. Initiative here doesn't come into play here as the nobs survive both the LC and SoS and get to deliver their blows. Against biker nobs (T5) insta-kill doesn't come in to play and the TH and SoS tie at inflicting 1 wound each, while the LC fall off. Vs a Tau Ridtide Hammer Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 0.556 Unsaved Wounds: 1.111 Options: Ignore Armour SoS Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 1.389 Unsaved Wounds: 0.278 Options: Wound On 2 As you can see here 2+ armor gives the SoS really tough time, dropping it down to just 27% to inflict 1 wound. Compare that to the hammer that is sitting on delivering 1 wound. Vs Wraith Knight SoS Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 0.556 Unsaved Wounds: 1.111 Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2 Hammer Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 1 Saved Wounds: 0.333 Unsaved Wounds: 0.667 Options: Ignore Armour As you can see here T7 and up starts to give the TH more problems, while the SoS stays consistent. SoS vs TH against TEQ SoS Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 1.389 Unsaved Wounds: 0.278 Models Killed: 0.278 Options: Wound On 2 Thunder Hammer Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 0.556 Unsaved Wounds: 1.111 Models Killed: 1.111 Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill Deathwing Symbol The broken sword represents the breaking of the Lion's Sword during his fight with Luther. http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/DAsymbolS_zpsa0cf86be.jpg It is rumored that the Fallen Known as Cypher now holds that sword. His intent is unknown, but the Angels will stop at nothing to find and capture him. Against TEQs the SoS falls to only 27% chance to inflict a wound. While 2+ armor isn't always what you'll face depending on the meta in your area it's common enough that you will see it. The TH does remarkably better there pulling in 1.11 wound on average. Note that is this was a non-eternal warrior HQ the TH would easily slay him on average. In summation all three have areas in which they excel. The LC obviously work better against weak CC units, but drop to uselessness against higher toughness enemies or 2+ armor saves. The SoS really doesn't stand apart from the TH until you are fighting T7 and above enemies, or against Initiative 4 or less enemies that have AP2 weapons (I can only think of Chaos Chosen armed with power axes. Anything else?). It's also important to note that against most things that Belial will get to attack before there is a reduction in the chance they will get to kill your terms by him thinning them out, but the number's we're seeing again most common enemies aren't profound, but I wouldn't discount that advantage. The TH stays on par with the SoS against most things and really shines against vehicles, 2+ armor save models and multiple wound enemies with T4 or less. Now that we've gone over that until we're sick lets move on. I want to toss some SoS/SB precision shot numbers up just to see how useful it is and sniping is always fun. The examples are only showing the precision hits, not the generic hits. VS MEQ (T4 3+Armor) Shots: 2 Hit Chance: 33.33% (hitting basically at BS 2) Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 0.333 Saved Wounds: 0.222 Unsaved Wounds: 0.111 Options: Hit On 5 That's a 11% chance to snipe a heavy weapon. Not fantastic. (Although it is fun >:) ) VS Nobs (T4, 4+Armor, 2 wounds) Attacker Group 1 Shots: 2 Hit Chance: 33.33% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 0.333 Saved Wounds: 0.167 Unsaved Wounds: 0.167 Options: Hit On 5 As you can see here sniping a Nob gets even harder. I also didn't add in the look out sir rule for a nob leading a unit, or the FNP roll any reasonable Ork list would have in a nob unit. Both of these drop the 16% chance to about 8%. VS IG (T3, 5+Armor) Attacker Group 1 Shots: 2 Hit Chance: 33.33% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 66.67% Wounds: 0.444 Unsaved Wounds: 0.444 Options: Ignore Armour, Hit On 5 Here is where it gets funner. More fun? Screw it... it's fun. Against IG you now have a 44% chance! That isn't bad, but again you won't always be fighting IG. Over all this perk really doesn't push the SoS/SB combo over the top. So after ingesting (or just skipping) the wall of numbers I just build I think anyone would be hard pressed to name a clear winner. I'll talk about the Iron Halo Vs Storm Shield survivability in TANKING. “No one but the Supreme Master of the Angels himself commands such stoic titan's of war” -Enlightened Astartes researcher Killian Fornik III refering to Master of the Deathwing Belial before his mysterious death. Interrogator-Chaplains While they are extremely fluffy to have I really never field one due to the value of our Librarians now. However for those that do I'll go over them. Company Master stats line is the first thing that really stands out. 3 attacks at initiative 5 and 3 wounds are nice. You could give this guy Term armor and the Mace of Redemption and really make him a killing machine. Of course at 170 points his costs detracts for additional troops. Barring the MoR I find that his power maul isn't always useful depending on what you are fighting (MEQs). While his Zealot rule gives a brutal re-roll to hit ability in the first round of combat for him and his unit in CC the fearless component is useless as all the DW already have it. Again.. I never field one but I don't think it's detrimental if you do. A matter of preference. I think a lot of people would place him in a DWK unit. I wouldn't. The DWKs aren't scoring and you can use him to tank wounds in a scoring term unit. But like I said I don't use them. Lets look at his Killyness © VS MEQ I-Chaplain w/MOR Maul Attacks: 5 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 4.444 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 3.704 Unsaved Wounds: 3.704 Models Killed: 3.704 Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour I-Chaplain Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 3.556 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 2.963 Saved Wounds: 1.975 Unsaved Wounds: 0.988 Models Killed: 0.988 Options: Reroll Hit Here we see that trading your Storm Bolter for the Mace of Redemption and keeping your maul will absolutely wreck a MEQ unit on the charge, killing 4. Wow. Of course your paying 170ish points. That's a lot in a DW list. Compared to a basic I-Chap with a maul that only pulls in 1 wound on average. Fearless is rather common in the game with allies being allowed now it's pretty easy for any army to have a unit with the rule. Lets look at round two with our two I-Chaplains. I-Chaplain w/MOR Maul Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 2.222 Unsaved Wounds: 2.222 Models Killed: 2.222 Options: Ignore Armour I-Chaplain Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 1.111 Unsaved Wounds: 0.556 Models Killed: 0.556 The MoR/Maul chap still pulls in 2 kills while the basic I-chap is only at 55% to kill one. Not great for a model that runs about 140 pts. Against 4+ armor the two are more on par, with a charging MoR/Maul pulling in 3.7 wounds and the basic Maul a steady 2.9. 1 kill for 30pts.. the MoR isn't as great in these cases. In the second round vs 4+ armor the two get even closer with the MoR/Maul bringing in a 2.22 wound average and the Maul showing a 1.6 average. Again that 30pts weapon isn't paying for itself at all with both averaging 2 wounds. From looking at these numbers the MoR shines vs the Maul when fighting 3+ armor, and pulls near even with anything worse. If someone here is sold on them feel free to write a IC tactica and if you want I'll copy and paste it here, giving you full credit. Librarians With the reduction of cost in this addition and Divination I find it hard to pass up a Librarian no matter what kind of list I make. A Librarian in Term armor, digital weapons (re-roll 1 failed to-wound per assault phase) is 35 points cheaper than a IC with term armor. Making him level 2 makes (along with the digital weapon) makes them both 140pts. Lets compare the two. Vs (MEQ) Marines. Chap Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 3.556 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 2.963 Saved Wounds: 1.975 Unsaved Wounds: 0.988 Options: Reroll Hit Librarian with a Force Staff Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 97.22% Wounds: 2.593 Saved Wounds: 1.728 Unsaved Wounds: 0.864 Options: Reroll Hit, Reroll Wound Librarian with a Force Sword Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 75% Wounds: 2 Unsaved Wounds: 2 Options: Reroll Hit, Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour In this example both characters are charging and re-roll hits. The Librarian also rerolls 1 wound. You can see the IC has a 98% chance to cause a wound with his AP4 maul the the Lib is very close behind with 86% and actually better than the IC with a power sword puling in 2 wounds! Of course you can give them both the Mace of Redemption and the IC will pull ahead again, but not by much and the 170 points he takes up can't help your scoring units. Even against troops like Eldar with 4+ saves the IC pulls 2.9 wounds vs the Librarian 2.4. Now looking at this you can see that they are fairly close in CC. However, the Lib has the ability to insta-kill with his force weapon. This can be important and shouldn't be discounted. I have killed a fair amount of enemy characters and monstrous creatures with my Lib, where a IC would have only cause a couple of wounds. Now couple this with his Psyker abilities (IE Prescience) and he becomes a force multiplier in a way that the IC can't match. This is important as low model count dictates that your units have to perform. There isn't much wiggle room. Also remember prescience counts for all roll to hits, this includes shooting and it can be used EVERY round instead of just the first round of CC. With many units in 40k being fearless this is a big advantage, as you will find yourself in consecutive rounds of combat. I know people will bring on the perils topic, but with LD 10 I find it really ever comes into play with only a 8.3% chance of rolling 11 or more. Comparing the two, both have their benefits, with the Chaplain being better at inflicting wounds over all, but the Lib being more of a support HQ, with the added bonus of possibility insta-killing something. I wouldn't discount the Chaplain if other people used him, but for me personally I prefer the Lib. Asmodai I have the old model of his guy. Love it. It's metal and heavy and if I lose I can always wing it at my opponent. Other than that he's not that great. He only has I-Chaplain stats but causes fear and has a instant-death weapon that strikes at S4 Ap-. Neither of those special abilities are great. If you've ever ran the Perfidious Relic with your DWK's you'll know that it's rare that fear comes into play. Insta-death isn't bad, but only S4 AP-? Hardly reliable. I'd rather field a Lib with a force weapon of a I-Chaplain with the MoR. Ezekiel I like The Holder of the Keys, Ezekiel. He complements the DW well, with I-Chaplain stats, a Force Weapon and adding +1 WS to all within 6”. He is expensive though and doesn't have a Invuln Save. He's also a lvl 3 psyker, but is forced to take Mind Worm, which isn't reliable. I'd love to field him with my DWK, giving them WS6, but I never seem to find the points. Azrael If you taking Azrael instead of Belial you are forfeiting Belial's non-scattering ability and his Teleport Homer. This removes the reliability of your DWA as it limits your ability to strike exactly where you need to, thus blunting your alpha strike. This is bad. Dropping units behind enemy lines to shoot rear armor, or to use vengeance strike's re-roll wounds ability with heavy flamers is brutal and shouldn't be thrown away lightly. Plus bad scatters can subject you to another round of shooting before you get to charge. Belial can guarantee a next round charge. Frag grenades are good, but not giving your Lib (attached to DWK in a LR) terminator armor you still have them. Also a LRC has frag launchers, giving the unit that exits it frag nades that turn. Az 4+ invul is wasted on the DWK as they all have a 3+ invuln. Remember the DWK don't benefit from vengeance strike, so they should be in the transports, not shooting terms. Picking your Warlord Trait is nice, but not game changing. Placing him with a normal troop choice limits them from DWAing. Again this blunts your alpha strike and they won't benefit from vengeance strike. That also limits them to footslogging or transport in a LR. Ideally you don't want terms walking, as they excel in CC, not shooting. This also limits their exposure to shooting, which is important. Don't get me wrong I love Az, but in with a term heavy list Belial is more valuable and taking them both is redundant. In a mixed wing list, with bikes he might be a valid option. Company Masters With Belial stats this HQ only seems to be different in the fact that you can have a custom loadout (at the cost of Belial's special abilities). I don't know what circumstance you'd field this HQ over the others. ”BodyGuard? Bodyguard you say? No.. these are not my bodyguard. They are the future of my chapter. They are the best among us. They are the ones that will lead us when I am gone. They do not protect me. It is I that protects them.” -Grand Master Sariel of the 1st Company. Deathwing Command Squads Banners: There are only two reasons to take this unit. The main one is for the Banner of Fortitude(BoF) and the second being the Deathwing Banner(DWB). The BoF provides a 24” mobile feel no pain (FNP) bubble to units. While this 5+ save might not seem like a huge boon, I'll tell you it is. At 85 pts the Bof is expensive, but saving just two Terminators will pay for itself. This can be big in a low model count army. Saving 3 or 4 models in a battle might not be much if you are a guard or Tau commander, but saving those same 4 guys when you only have a 25 model army? Huge. The DWB on the other hand gives a +1 attack bonus to any model with in 6”. While this might sound good it pales in comparison to the BoF in a DW list. While performing better in a mixed wing list. Let me explain. Providing a 24” FNP bubble to units, instead of models like the DWB, lets you have units further than 24”. Only 1 model has to be within 24” for the whole unit to gain this benefit. This can lead you to use it for your whole list, thus increasing the chances to save troops. It is a force multiplier. http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/Misc%2040k/DWCRange_zpsaa966f1d.jpg In this example you can see that on a 6' x 4' board the banner can take up a lot of real estate. In my opinion, the DWB works better as a lone wolf deathstar bomb (compared to the BoF). Attach Belial drop him behind enemy line (hopefully he survives being focus fired while unsupported) and his unit wrecks face against one unit. The 6” effective range of the banner leads you to charge either the same unit, or very close units. With all of your models wielding power fists.. you usually don't need to double team enemy units. If you add an apothecary you are only paying ten points less for the combo than the BoF. Would you rather have a unit only FNP or a 24” FNP bubble? Remember model retention should be a high priority for you. Having a 24" FNP bubble can save bodies and if you roll 1s like I do.. this is important. Apothecary: The DW apothecary is overpriced he is for what he does. You would think that removing his power fist would give you a rather substantial price reduction of FNP, but no. you are paying a lot of points for his S4 AP- attacks. Taking him reduces the units effectiveness in CC, thus helping to negate the bonus attacks the DWB provides. If you field the Deathwing Banner AND a Apoth you are paying 50pts for 2 extra power fist attacks and 3 S4 Ap- attacks (5 extra PF attacks from the DWB – the 3 that you lose from not having a PF with a Apothecary = 2. Now add the 3 attacks that a Apothecary would have from the banner and you only gain 2 extra PF attacks and 3 S4 AP- attacks for your 50 pt banner. I'd rather take another Terminator for those points. Powerfist Term compared to a slap fighting Apothecary against a MEQ (WS4 T4 3+Armor) Attacker Group 1 Attacks: 2 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 1 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 0.5 Saved Wounds: 0.333 Models Killed: 0.167 Attacker Group 2 Attacks: 2 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 1 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.833 Unsaved Wounds: 0.833 Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill As you can see taking a apothecary reduces the combat effectiveness of the unit, with the PF term having a 83% chance to kill a MEQ compared to a 16% chance from the Apoth. Not to mention insta-killing things, being massively more effective vs vehicles and monstrous creatures and 2+armor targets. Add in a charge and the fist averages over 1 wound. The Apoth barely breaks 20%. For 10 points more you can get a Banner of Fortitude instead of the Deathwing banner and Apothecary. it's a no-brainier, Equipment: Leaving the with just PF's and SB isn't a bad option, but it will lead to you valuable banner getting focused early. Terminators are not the best shooters, so forgoing this shouldn't be a huge factor. As Brother Paul points our using the Deathwing Banner and all Lightning Claws can be a hard hitting option. They do excel against hordes, like Orks or IG blobs. Against MEQs (WS4 T4) they average about 14 kills on the charge. Compare that to a Hammer/Powerfist 11 kills. Note that if these are marines.. BOTH weapons kills them to the man. The excess wounds are discounted. Against WS3 T3 models the LC's increase to 19 kills and the TH/PF stay constant at 11. This is more telling for the LC's as armies horde armies with initiative's less than 4 might not be able to even attack back as you've killed everyone within 2”. Against models like Monstrous Creatures, T5+ models, Vehicles, 2+ Armor Lightning Claws start to fall off in effectiveness while the TH/PF stay consistent. While your local meta might be light on these things not everyone's is. Wrath knights and riptide spam is common for me, along with vehicle and beastly warlords. Are common for me, so I prefer the consistent reliability of the TH/PFs. I won't discount the claw/DWB combo because it does have it's merits. Like I've said before it's up to you. It is important to note that without the DWB the claws are not as effective. In the examples above I included the DWB for the LC but not the TH/PFs. I also included Prescience from a Lib. I like to equip them with TH/SS and much as possible. Making them hard to kill is important as anyone familiar with Dark Angel's banners will focus them. I also wouldn't place Belial in this unit. You want to spread out your threats. Placing all your high value items and people in one unit makes target priority easy for your opponent. Placing Belial in a normal unit of Terminators will spread the threat out. It's much harder for your opponent to pick between shooting the enemies warlord or his FNP banner or his Knights. Lumping all your valuable assets in one unit makes that job a lot easier. We want our enemies to shoot piece meal at our units. Losing 1 guy in each squad isn't as painful as losing 1 whole squad. Tactics like this save your units and allow you to reach the enemy and hold scoring objectives. Losing a full unit every turn limits your options and reduces your abilities to inflict damage or hold objectives. Model retention is a priority but unit retention even a higher one. Deathwing Champion: (-Thx Paul) For 5 pts this guy is pretty good. You gain +2S AP2 at initiative and precision strike because he's a character. Not bad. I usually field one (because I took the time to paint him :p ) I never place a Character in this unit so challenges are not a huge deal. Remember spread out your threats. ”We are the sententials of the Circle, Protectors of the path and our name is secret to everyone, Even you. Now leave of suffer your fate.” – Unknown Dark Angel in Terminator Armor wielding a mace, described by Inquisitor Helioux after his attempted questioning. Deathwing Knights Quite possibility the best unit in the game. Hammer of Wrath, S10 AP2 Maces, 3+ invuln, T5 they are amazing. I primarily use them to hunt the biggest threat in the game, IE monstrous creatures, AV14 vehicles other Terminators. I almost always field them and find they are best served in a LRC. It's also important to try to give them a extra guy or two if you have the points as overwatch or just normal shooting can hurt their efficiency. Placing your Lib with them gives them the valuable re-roll that complements their maces and insures that when they activate them they kill what they need too. There is nothing worse than activating your maces, assaulting a horde of biker nobs with their +1 WS banner and rolling low, thus missing instead of inst-killing them. By putting your Lib and DWK in a LRC you have three units on the board, giving you the ability to hold 4 in reserve for DWA. It's also worth nothing that they can take the watcher with the relic, which causes fear and adds +1 to the deny the witch roll. Placing your Lib here has the synergistic effect of increasing your deny the witch roll to 4+ (3+ if you have a higher level). While fear can't really be relied on it's not a bad option for 10pts. Toughness 5 is great, but does have it's draw backs as you have to be bunched up to make use of it. Blast templates like Plasma cannons will still wound you on 2+ and cause multiple wounds due to being so close to each other, leading to no real benefit. Against non-blast shooting that is S6 of less it's amazing. The wording of this ability allows you to boost any other model or unit up to T5 also (as long as they have the inner circle rule). So, theoretically you could base your unit of Knights right against a unit of normal Terminators and as long as most of the normal terminators are touching at least two Knights.. Both units are T5! While it sounds great... blast templates will wreck you. However.. if you are playing a army with little to no templates this isn't a bad idea. Making a solid block of Terminators sandwiching a unit of Knights would be hard to kill. Maybe not always practical, but fun. http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/Knight_zps03080284.jpg In this example the Knights (for the sake of the example they are the Ultramarine Terms in the middle) are surrounded by Normal (Scoring) Terms. Because a majority of both Term units are touching at least 2 Knights they are T5. While this formation is an example I'm sure you could see the potential. I watched a player foot slog his whole DW list across the board like this. 5+ units alternating between Knights and normal Terms. It worked semi-well until he played a Template spamming Marine player. Then he was tabled fast. Knights also have precision strikes. Rolling a 6 to hit lets you place the wound on any model you are engaged with. This is a great ability vs some enemies. Killing a Ork Painboy, or Power Fist before they get to strike is awesome. 5 DWK (including a knight master) vs a Wraith knight Attacker Group 1 Attacks: 12 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 8 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 6.667 Saved Wounds: 2.222 Unsaved Wounds: 4.444 Options: Ignore Armour Attacker Group 2 Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 0.444 Saved Wounds: 0.148 Unsaved Wounds: 0.296 Options: Ignore Armour As you can see here with 5 DWK your odds to one shot the Wraith knight falls short with just 5 of the WK's 6 wounds delivered. Now let's look at the benefits from taking DWK with a Lib or a I-Chap. 5 DWK (including a knight master) with a Lib using prescience/IC vs a Wraith knight Attacker Group 1 Attacks: 12 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 10.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 8.889 Saved Wounds: 2.963 Unsaved Wounds: 5.926 Models Killed: 0.988 Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour Attacker Group 2 Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 3.556 Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 0.593 Saved Wounds: 0.198 Unsaved Wounds: 0.395 Models Killed: 0.066 Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour As you can see here now they deliver the killing blow this time, letting them move on to the next target. For the sake of completeness I added the stats for both a attached I-chap and a Lib armed with a Force Axe Lib Vs I-Chap Lib w/ F. Axe Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 0.444 Saved Wounds: 0.148 Unsaved Wounds: 0.296 Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour Lib w/ F. Maul Attacks: 3 Hit Chance: 88.89% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 0.444 Saved Wounds: 0.296 Unsaved Wounds: 0.148 Options: Reroll Hit Interrogator Chaplain Attacks: 4 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 2.667 Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 0.444 Saved Wounds: 0.296 Unsaved Wounds: 0.148 (.79 with the MoR) The Ties of the Unforgiven While is has not been proven that they are still Legion, many with in the Imperium foster mistrust over the intentions of the Dark Angels and their successor Chapters due to the closeness they work and the secrecy they shroud themselves with. This has given Even the High Lords of Terra Pause and has limited any further successor Chapters for the Angels. Both do poorly vs the Wraith knight, with the Lib actually Better then the more expensive IC, with a 30% chance to wound with a F. Axe and tieing with the I-C with the maul at 15%. Of course the Lib's percentage includes the ability to use the force weapon against the WK to insta-kill him if you happen to roll badly with the DWK. Remember you only have a 8% chance to peril on LD 10. Survivability IG Lasgun Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 0.833 Saved Wounds: 0.694 Unsaved Wounds: 0.139 Models Killed: 0.139 Tau Fire Warrior Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 2.5 Saved Wounds: 2.083 Unsaved Wounds: 0.417 Models Killed: 0.417 SM Bolter Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 6.667 Wound Chance: 33.33% Wounds: 2.222 Saved Wounds: 1.852 Unsaved Wounds: 0.37 Models Killed: 0.37 Eldar Shuriken Catapult/Avenger Shuriken Shots: 20 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 13.333 Wound Chance: 16.67% Rend Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 2.222 Rend Wounds: 2.222 Saved Wounds: 1.852 Unsaved Wounds: 0.37 Unsaved Rending Wounds: 0.741 Models Killed: 1.111 Options: Rending Plasma Gun Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.556 Saved Wounds: 0.37 Unsaved Wounds: 0.185 Models Killed: 0.185 Options: Ignore Armour Having a toughness of 5 really hurts some enemies. As you can see 10 IG flashlights are only pulling in a 13% chance to kill a DWK per ten shots. Tau Fire Warriors do a much better with 41% with their S5 guns, while the standard Bolter only hits about 37% on average. Rending and always having 2 shots per ten troops help the Eldar Dire Avengers and Guardians with an average of 1.11 wounds per shooting phase. Luckily their range sucks. While usually feared by TEQ's (Terminator equivalents) a plasma gun only shows a 18% kill ratio per shots. Not really scary vs a storm shield. Dreadnoughts – Relics of War ”I have lived for thousands of years. I have fought every against every form of Heresy, Alien and Mutant known to mankind. I sleep in unrest and wake to War. I am a tool of need. A spear from the Lion himself. I am the manifest wrath of the Emperor himself and I am your Death.” -Brother-Dreadnought Nathanial, Former Grand Master of the Dark Angels Normal Dreadnought. -Under construction- Rifleman Dreadnought. -Under construction- Mortis Dreadnoughts (Forge World) I don't know why this is only forgeworld instead of in the C:DA but it's not bad. for just over 100 pts you get a sky firing monster. Of course it's still AV12 so it's not as good as the next option. Here is a free link to them. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/s/Smupdate.pdf Contemptors (Forge World) With AV13 in the front, AV11 in the back and a 5+ Invuln a Contemptor has a bit more survivability. With load outs like the Kheres Assault Cannon (S6 AP4 heavy6) and the conversion-beam cannon (S10 AP1 large blast if over 42") These dreads really start to pay for themselves. Not to mention WS5, which gives their dreadnought fist a good advantage over most things. Sorry I don't have a link for them. But I'm sure you could probably find them. Hitting a unit of Biker Nobs or Nurgle Marines with the Conversion Beam's S10 AP1 hit makes Enemy players cry. Mortis Contemptors (Forge World) These are my absolute favorites and exactly what the DW needs by way of support. Again AV13 and a 5+ Invuln. They have quite a number of options, but I find giving them 2x Kheres Assault cannons (YES! that is 12 shots) and a CML the best one. Like the mortis if it doesn't move it has skyfire and interceptor. Last game I used one against a C:SM player it killed two flyers and his Allied Sammuel. Against Necrons it laid waste to a horde of scarabs that tried to kill it in my shooting phase and later in overwatch. None of them reached him. I could bore you with stats on this but with 12 rending shots, 2 missiles shots, skyfire, interceptor and BS5 you get the point. Foreworld updates in case you want to see the changes to mortis and contemptors. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf “And come onto me those willing to stand apart, cloaking themselves in secrecy and Death and deliver the Emperor's wrath” -Dark Angel Interrogator-Chaplain Duma during the rites of the Skull and Sword. Deathwing Terminators Of course these are our only option, but a great one at that. How many we take and what loadout to give them are the only option here. As your only scoring unit in a DW list you should really try to maximize these units and protect them as much as possible. It's completely possible to have them focused and lose the game in the first couple of game turns. Try to shoot for at least three scoring units. These also should be the units that you DWA, as the benefit from Vengeance strike. This helps to maximize the effectiveness of your unit, which is always a good thing. There are a couple of schools of thought here.. see: list making for more info. Survivability Lets look at the averages of surviving vs some of the most common enemies. I've ran some numbers vs units shooting one (1) round of shooting. Note doesn't count special rules like Rapid fire. For those numbers just double the “models killed” number as twice the number of shots would be connecting. VS a standard Terminator (5+ Invulnerable) IG Lasgun Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 33.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 1.389 Unsaved Wounds: 0.278 Models Killed: 0.278 Tau Fire Warrior Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 66.67% Wounds: 3.333 Saved Wounds: 2.778 Unsaved Wounds: 0.556 Models Killed: 0.556 SM Bolter Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 6.667 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 3.333 Saved Wounds: 2.778 Unsaved Wounds: 0.556 Models Killed: 0.556 Eldar Shuriken Catipult/Avenger Shuriken Shots: 20 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 13.333 Wound Chance: 33.33% Rend Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 4.444 Rend Wounds: 2.222 Saved Wounds: 3.704 Unsaved Wounds: 0.741 Unsaved Rending Wounds: 1.481 Models Killed: 2.222 Options: Rending 1 shot Plasma Gun Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.556 Saved Wounds: 0.185 Unsaved Wounds: 0.37 Models Killed: 0.37 Options: Ignore Armour As you can see ten IG shots fall short with only 27% chance to kill one Term per ten shots. Even rapid firing this is hardly threatening. The basic Bolter and rail rifle from Tau tie for 56% to kill 1 Terminator. Rapid fire would bring that up a tad with 1.12 terminators dead (unless you roll 1's like I do). Eldar Guardians and Dire Avengers take the lead with always shooting two shots and rending. Of course having a 18” and a 12” range hurt them, but inflicting an average 2.22 wounds per shooting phase does not. We often think of a plasma gun as a huge threat with it's 37% to kill a marine. A unit of 5 Veterans all armed with a plasma gun shooting twice would increase that to 3.7 wounds... ouch. I post these numbers not to overwhelm you or to fill your brain with trivial numbers, but to give you an idea of what odds your taking by trying to weather the storm of fire you'll face. Hopefully it helps. Let's run those same numbers vs a SS terminator. VS Storm Shield Terminator. IG Lasgun Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 33.33% Wounds: 1.667 Saved Wounds: 1.389 Unsaved Wounds: 0.278 Models Killed: 0.278 Tau Fire Warrior Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 50% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 66.67% Wounds: 3.333 Saved Wounds: 2.778 Unsaved Wounds: 0.556 Models Killed: 0.556 SM Bolter Shots: 10 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 6.667 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 3.333 Saved Wounds: 2.778 Unsaved Wounds: 0.556 Models Killed: 0.556 Eldar Shuriken Catipult/Avenger Shuriken Shots: 20 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 13.333 Wound Chance: 33.33% Rend Wound Chance: 16.67% Wounds: 4.444 Rend Wounds: 2.222 Saved Wounds: 3.704 Unsaved Wounds: 0.741 Unsaved Rending Wounds: 0.741 Models Killed: 1.481 Options: Rending Plasma Gun Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.556 Saved Wounds: 0.37 Unsaved Wounds: 0.185 Models Killed: 0.185 Options: Ignore Armour As you can see the Lasgun, Bolter and Rail Rifle all stay consistent, while our little Eldar friends fall to only 1.4 wounds and the Plasma only hits an 18% chance to take that Terminator down. Not bad. Heavy Weapons: CML: -Anti-Everything Baring the MM on a Land Raider or a Dreadnought's loadout this is really the only solid anti-vehicle ranged weapon of the Deathwing. You also have the option to shoot them as frag missiles, which is great against hordes. I try to always take at least 2 of these. Plasma Cannon: -Anti-MEQ/TEQ With the addition of 6th edition we've gained this weapon. While I don't really use it I can see it's potential. Terminators excel in CC, and hopefully you'll be close to the enemy for most of the game. Having a weapon that can scatter back into you is scary to me. It's AP2 Blast template can be disastrous. Of course you can always Split Fire this shot away to a far unit. In addition the 'Gets Hot' rule is worrisome. I know it's a long shot, but this weapon just doesn't seem as reliable as a CML or assault cannon to me. I wouldn't fault others for using it as it is a good weapon against MEQs, but I tend not to. Assault Cannon: -Anti-infantry/Anti-vehicle (if you roll well) Who doesn't like rending? With 4 shots and the chance to inflict damage on even the toughest armor this weapon is a solid choice. Heavy Flamer: -Anti-infantry I wouldn't run this weapon on a unit that wasn't in a Land Raider or DWAing with Belial, as it might not get to be used before it shoots. However, using it with either of the options named above will cause great damage. Using it in conjunction with Belial's non-scattering ability will let you re-roll wounds on the turn it comes in. Flaming whole units of Eldar of Tau and watching them all melt is amazing. None. Of course you could always take bikes to help with DWA scatter, but then it's not a pure DW list and those points could be used for more scoring units. Black Knights might be ok, but again they are a expensive none scoring unit. On the bright side they draw fire away from your scoring units. I won't go anymore in depth about this as I'm not a RW player. Anyone that wants to write a mixed wing tactica addition feel free. ”Think of a Astartes Land raider not as a tank, but more of a mobile fortress” -Imperial Guard Armor Commander Xio Xiano adressing Imperial tank commanders. Land raiders Deathwing Units While the Dark Angels Chapter comprises of a vast diversity of units and weapons only a select few are part of the Deathwing. Besides the Inner Circle themselves, who are all members, only Knights, Terminators, Dreadnoughts and Land raiders comprise the 1st Company (5th Ed C:DA). I usually purchase my Land Raider Crusader from here. I know I can take it as a dedicated transport, but I'm not sure if it counts as a unit for purposes of reverses that way and we'll need as many units on the board as possible to let more units DWA. You can also use a LR without the Deathwing Vehicle rule if it's taken this way. Sometimes points are so tight that going without this upgrade is a necessity. Always take the Multi-Melta option and dozer blade. With power of the machine spirit you can move 12' and fire it at full ballistic skill. Getting immobilized on turn one can result in your Knights getting picked apart as they try to cross the board. for 5 pts Dozer blades are a must have. Personally I always run my Crusader. Pro: 24' range on everything. Pro: Anti-horde /Anti-Vehicle (with the MM upgrade) Pro: Power of the machine spirit Pro: Mobile terrain. Con: Cost. At a basic 250pts, before upgrades that you really should be taking it detracts from your scoring units. Con: One 10pt Melta can wreck it. A Normal LR might not be a bad idea as it would add additional anti-vehicle, although sacrificing transport space. I've never used a Redeemer, but between the limitations of a vehicle moving and shooting template weapons they look problematic on paper. If anyone have more practical information on using them let me know. As it stands they don't look as effective. Misc other Vehicles Vindicators -Under construction- Predators -Under construction- Whirl Winds -Under construction- -Updates- 10/31/13 Fleshed out the DWC and DWT 10/27/13 Added Spoiler tags to streamline reading. -Thanks Paulochromis. 10/26/13 Added Misc facts, Fixed the indexing to (hopefully) a cleaner look 10/24/13 Updated the HQ section, Updated DWKs, Added easier index titles. Minor additions here and there. 10/07/13 Updated Belial, I-Chap, DW Terms, Company Masters (lol), added List making section 10/04/13 Updated DW command squads 10/04/13 Updated DWKs with stats Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 ”It is often not how the enemy strikes, but where he does!” -Lion El'jonson, Primarch to the Dark Angels. In the past I've always hid my attached characters in the back of the group, holding them back to ensure their abilities don't get wasted. After a few games however I realized that once Belial deepstrikes all his special rules are pretty much used. With a wound pool equal to two extra terminators I found that I could use those two wounds to mitigate damage, thus saving terminators. In a low model count list retaining those troops becomes paramount. So Belial has to step up. http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/BatRep/Tank1_zps1b858354.jpg In this diagram I've placed Belial's group near three different enemy units, all armed with different weapons. Using more “mathhammer” lets look at the survivability of some of these attacks. 3 Crisis suits shooting AP2 (with +1 BS markerlights)vs normal Terms. Attacker Group 1 Shots: 6 Hit Chance: 83.33% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 4.167 Saved Wounds: 1.389 Unsaved Wounds: 2.778 Options: Ignore Armour That is a 3 models killed (rounding). Ugh! 3 Crisis suits shooting AP2 (with +1 BS markerlights)vs Belial with SS Attacker Group 1 Shots: 6 Hit Chance: 83.33% Hits: 5 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 4.167 Saved Wounds: 2.778 Unsaved Wounds: 1.389 Options: Ignore Armour Again rounding that is only 1 wound! Belial just saved three models while only taking 1 wound. Plasma and Bolter Vs Normal Terminator Bolter Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 50% Wounds: 0.333 Saved Wounds: 0.278 Unsaved Wounds: 0.056 [Plasma Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.556 Saved Wounds: 0.185 Unsaved Wounds: 0.37 As you can see that a normal bolter shot has about a 6% (rounding) chance to kill a terminator, while a plasma shot has a 37% chance to kill a terminator. That is a huge jump. Now taking in account a storm shield your chances vs AP2 and AP1 increase dramatically. Plasma vs StormShield Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.556 Saved Wounds: 0.37 Unsaved Wounds: 0.185 A 19% percent of taking a wound. Basically 1 in 5 plasma shots cause a wound. Now compare that to an Iron Halo. plasma vs Iron Halo Shots: 1 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 0.667 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 0.556 Saved Wounds: 0.278 Unsaved Wounds: 0.278 A 28% of taking a wound. This just a little less than 1 in 3 shots. With Belial having 2 wounds to spare (before you are forced to look out sir), which would you rather risk? The 1/3rd or 1/5th of a chance to take that wound? With a SS you have a 81% chance to mitigate that wound, thus you retain that wound to save another terminator. Of course you can say that the IH has a 72% chance to do that same thing. Like in poker you aren't dealing in absolutes here. With the dice gods sometimes being fickle, most likely outgunned and always being out manned we really need to play the odds to our favor. Mitigating the higher risks will help rain in the randomness that so often cripples armies with such little wiggle room. Now lets look at that diagram again. http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/BatRep/Tank1_zps1b858354.jpg So ideally, you want Belial in front and a SS terminator and a normal terminator on each side of him (Equal distance to the enemy). These will be the 'look out sir' fall guys. 1.10 Fire Warriors shooting without markerlights. Now a SS won't improve your chances to survive as the Term armor is better than the SS's protection. A fire warrior has a 5.6% chance per shot to kill a Terminator, With such a low chance you can safely 'look out sir' these to normal terms. This way you save Belial's wound pool for more dangerous stuff. 2.The Hammer head shooting a strength 8(or greater) shot that is AP2 has a 19% (rounding up) chance to kill a TH/SS Marine. This of course could be tanked by Belial, but failure would insta-kill him. These shots are better served by “lookout sir” on your TH/SS term. Again we are playing the odds here. Not subjugating Belial to insta-death is usually preferable. 3.3 Crisis suits firing plasma into our squad with and without markerlights. These are the hits that Belial should take as they don't insta-kill him and he benefits from his high chance to nullify them. He has about an 80% chance to mitigate them and 2 wounds to do it in (the chance to wound actually ranges from 13% to 23% depending on the amount of markerlights used). Now compare that to a 28% to 46% chance to wound vs a non SS term depending on the number of markerlights used. Belial with the IH would fall at 21% to 34% depending on the number of markerlights used. Needless to say we want to have the lowest chance to take that wound. Here the SS win's by at least 10% per hit. Of course these circumstances can change. For example, if your opponent doesn't have very many of any AP2 weapons, then Belial should be tanking the 2+ armor hits. Remember the retaining of models will help you win the game. Belial isn't a scoring unit but his unit is. Of course he can surrender 'slay the warlord' victory points, but holding a multiple point objective at the end of the game vs losing 1 VP due to his death might be preferable. It's also worth noting that other IC's can perform this function too, although not as well due to the lack of a SS. Coupled with the TH's viability which we covered in the HQ:Belial section we can see that the odds favor TH/SS as a force multiplier. ”The Angels have continued to advance despite casualties, but have stopped short of our defensive lines. I don't think we'll need any assistan......*Bzzzt*” -Last words of the Renegade Warsmith Jenik before a coordinated vindicator strike was unleashed on him. Like most people I make my lists with the assumption that each unit has a goal or area or responsibility. While this can be generic as in 'anti-infantry' it can also be more defined as in 'draw threat/anti-infantry/Anti-horde'. All lists need some semblance of balance. There are the basic list needs: Anti-troop units, anti-vehicle units and the more advanced needs like anti-air, psykers. Balancing the basics and adjusting the levels of each can make the difference between winning and watching a horde of dreadnoughts curb stomp you as you shoot bolters at them. As Terminators these roles are usually a little more broad, as having a unit of power fists can pretty much kill everything. Even with this in place I still make rolls for each of my units. Sure, they can break those rolls if needed, but hopefully it isn't necessary. Scoring units are also very important. I see a lot of people making 2 five man scoring units in their lists and stacking elites, DWC, LR, lions, tiger and bears.... etc.. While this isn't always bad, depending on which mission you are playing if can lead to crushing defeats in others. As a rule you should always be shooting for at least 3 scoring units. Take what works and dump the rest. If your I-Chaplain is dual wielding two bologna sandwiches while running around in a chicken suit and crushing peoples hopes, dreams and armies.. then by all means use them. Just because I, or others don't use certain units.. doesn't mean you can't. Having a fluid list will help you grow as a player. “This water, the softest substance in the world, which could be contained in the smallest jar, only seemed weak. In reality, it could penetrate the hardest substance in the world. That was it! I wanted to be like the nature of water.” -Bruce Lee Single Land Raider Lists 1: Hammer and Anvil (Typher's List) Deathwing Stands Apart Once clad in Black Armor, the 1st Company remained so until they discovered that a few of their own had fallen, protecting one of the few Chapters recruiting worlds from a Gene-Steeler Invasion. Victorious, they had saved the future of the Chapter, but payed the highest of prices. When they were found it was discovered that they had painted their armor white, the color of death. Today the Deathwing honors them by continuing the tradition. (the Book Deathwing) Belial -TH/SS Librarian (Load out is situational, with a Force Axe usually in a all comers list) 5x DWK 10x Terminators -2x Hvy Flamers, 2x TH/SS 5x Terminators – 1x TH/SS, CML 5x Terminators – 1x TH/SS, CML LRC – Multi-Melta, Dozer Blade, Deathwing Vehicle (when I have the points) This isn't usually my whole list, only about 1725pts. With the extra points I tend to change things up. Vindicators, Dreads, WW or just buffing up my knights and adding more upgrades is usually what I do. It changes and I haven't found a complete list yet. Mess around with what you like. With the core units and tactics in place anything else is a bonus. In 2500 or 2250 lists I usually add a Command squad or just more Scoring Terms. Tactics. I classify my DW terms as two different options. Belial's close up unit (The Anvil) and mobile fire bases. And the LRC with the Knights my (The Hammer). For Belial's unit I find that a larger unit of DW terminators can really pay off. The 'Anvil' will usually deepstrike close to the enemy and thus (hopefully) draw more fire. Letting your 5 man scoring units survive. A ten man dual heavy flamer unit that can DS without scatter = death and easy first blood. Ideally you can take 1 flamer and a CML instead, use the Flamer and Storm Bolters against infrantry and CML rear armor of vehicles. With split fire you can deal out some real punishment. Example 1 http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/BatRep/DWA1_zpsabe50147.jpg In this example. your main target is the Tau commander and the unit of marker lights he's joined. Like I've stated before with the limited shooting you'll have target priority should be paramount. In this case killing the marker lights will hamper the Tau and help you dramatically in later rounds and hopefully if he doesn't escape too far you could charge him next turn. While one of your flamers split fires into the scoring unit of Fire Warriors in the trees the other flamer, along with the storm bolters, kills as many marker lights as possible. Remember vengeance strike for re-rolling missed and wounds on the flamer. The large unit also helps with survival and gives you access to have two weapons. You can also see that I have Belial in front of the other DW Terms I'll cover this later in TANKING. This unit's role is high priority targets, threat Generation and second turn charge. Example 2 http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/BatRep/DWA2_zpsdf2cfcf5.jpg If you fight against more experienced players you'll see things like this. Transports hiding scoring units. That's ok. Here you can see how I would drop the my Mobile Fire base units. I always arm these term units with CMLS. With random scattering you need a weapon that can hit at distance. In this scenario I'd use the CML units to pop the transports BEFORE my Belial unit shoots. this way if you are able to take the transport down Belial's units flamers make short work of the scoring units inside, with flamers that ignore cover. Of course if your dice go bad you can always double flame the Tau in the trees. The Anvil (Belial's squad) Drop in, draw fire, inflict damage and the Hammer (the LRC with the Knights) advances to bring death focusing the hard targets that need to die (wrathknights/other terms), while the object holding CML units and Command squads rain death and advance, charging where they can and taking objectives. Pretty simple. With proper positioning and tanking you should be able to inflict massive damage, while mitigating most of his. Keeping your scoring units alive and blunting his offensive potential with a hard hitting DWA will usually win you the game. As of now I only run 1 Landraider so I find this strategy pretty successful (I only have one :( ). Dual Land Raiders Lists 1: March10k's List +++++++++++++ Classified ++++++++++++++ +++++++++ Clearance: Alpha-Primus ++++++++ +Feed halted +Clearance Pending........ Accepted by Permission of March10k, praise be onto him. Belial The 1st The Dark Angels were the first Legion to be created. They date back further than any other Legion and actually participated in the unification wars of Terra. Because they hold this honored role and because they had to first alone, they had access to tech and weapons that no other legion did. They also had multiple wings, including the Dreadwing, Ironwing and Stormwing. (The Unremembered Empire) Librarian on bike with PFG 5 Deathwing with CML and one CF (DWA turn 2) 5 Deathwing with CML and one CF (DWA turn 2) 5 Deathwing with 3 TH/SS and one HF/CF (Belial; mounted) 5 Knights (mounted) Crusader with DW upgrade Crusader with DW upgrade Further Coming.... :D Foot Sloggers Lists +++++++++++++ Classified ++++++++++++++ +++++++++ Clearance: Alpha-Primus ++++++++ +Feed halted +Clearance Pending.... Mixed Wing Lists +++++++++++++ Classified ++++++++++++++ +++++++++ Clearance: Alpha-Primus ++++++++ +Feed halted +Clearance Pending.... ++++++++Classified++++++++ +++Astartes: Mortem Alae+++ ++++++++Classified++++++++ +++Astartes: Mortem Alae+++ ++++++++Classified++++++++ +++Astartes: Mortem Alae+++ +Feed Accepted +Clearance Pending........ Accepted by Permission of DarkAngelDentist, praise be onto him. Thanks to DarkAngelDentist for contributing to the Tactica. He's spearheading the Wargear section and has done a great job. So without further adieu I'll let him take point. Wargear: Not every Deathwing army will have much opportunity to play around the wargear section of the Dark angels armoury but when including a second HQ it is well worth taking the time to assess the wargear items they have access to and which ones will best benefit the rest of your list. Whether you take a librarian or interrogator chaplain may have some impact on this but we'll come to that later. Wargear is also one of the very few areas where you can fill out and play around with spare points once the units and major equipment options have been settled. Basic Gear Combi-weapons: First item for review are combi-weapons, they all cost the same and fall into the same functional slot. A one-shot special weapon at the cost of dropping your storm bolter down to a bolter. A flamer shot is potent for a deathwing assaulting HQ as it benefits from vengeful strike (another one-shot ability in general) and used in this way makes for a nasty aggressive drop into enemy mobs of bunched up models. A melta shot is similarly valuable in an army with such limited anti-tank options and again, you can use the vengeful strike rule to improve reliability and also get it into position. (Although like the flamer you will likely be putting a lot of eggs in one basket by including Belial in the same unit to ensure you get perfect placement.) Lastly we have the plasmagun, I find this the most generic option and probably the most reliably useful since you get two shots up to 12" away. Since plasma has both decent strength and low AP it's very dangerous to the rear armour of enemy tanks and dependable against most things with a toughness value. As with the others you can improve reliability by using the special weapon part on the turn you arrive via deep strike but with the plasma I feel it's less important thanks to both multiple shots and better effective range. Auspex: This item is cheap and on the surface might seem situational due to the short range and requirement that you sacrifice the model's shooting. This can impact list building and your in-game tactics, especially if you took a combi-weapon. However the benefit can be substantial, the unit you target with the auspex need not be the same unit the squad your character is attached shoots at. This makes the auspex very flexible as the debuff to the enemy unit's cover saves applies the whole of your army. Need to shift guard off an aegis defence line? Well a 5+ cover save is a lot less reliable than a 4+ and even going to ground won't save them nearly as well as they'd normally expect. Probably more beneficial though is the ability to reduce the cover save jinking skimmers or night fight effect that vehicles frequently try to benefit from. Lessening the chances of your precious anti-tank shots failing to damage enemy tanks can be invaluable for an elite low model count army like Deathwing. The 12" of the auspex does demand that the model carrying it be up in the opponent's face and to be so right from the start if you want to really exploit the auspex, which is likely to mean a deathwing assault with Belial on turn one. This can appear a risky tactic (and it may well be) but the rewards can be great. Infravisor: This item has it uses and can be particularly helpful for regular Dark angel lists but night fight shouldn't be much of a concern for a Deathwing army, few of it's weapons have the range to make night fighting that significant (and can be mitigated by the auspex as well) and more importantly will only apply to the unit the character has joined. The risk against the 'Blind' special rule is also not good for a deathwing army. I wouldn't take it myself as the uses are very specialised and the Deathwing are poorly equipped to take advantage of them. Melta bombs: I remember when terminators had no option for any type of grenade but now our HQ choices can take melta bombs even when wearing terminator armour. Now you might ask why this is such a good thing when a squad can buy a chainfist on a terminator for the same cost and get even better tank busting potential due to the extra attacks. However an independent character carrying melta bombs has a couple of significant advantages. Firstly you can place them inside any unit to give it a potent extra bit of tank busting tech. Second is that it gives the character an attack against even the very toughest targets regardless of his other weapons. If you took a power weapon on your librarian and find yourself up against a land raider, or even a regular tank then having the melta bomb means they have the means to deal with it. The AP 1 is also a small but note-worthy bump in reliability for achieving destroyed results on the damage table. Digital weapons: Anything that improves your characters reliability in combat is welcome and this item is not expensive, particularly useful for power sword and axe wielding librarians who possess few attacks and really rely on their hits wounding but chaplains enjoy the re-roll just as well. On librarians in particular this can have a huge impact thanks to their force weapons instant death ability. Killing a Tau riptide, Eldar wraithknight or daemon prince can swing a game. However it does depend on your characters getting into combats where that one re-roll may or may not prove significant. An affordable and good value item. Porta-rack: This is another item like digital weapons, a bit of a luxury but one well-worth the cost if you do have the points and plan on having your HQs fighting close combats regularly. Ignore the bit about using the enemy teleport homers and causing fear, there is one primary benefit that you should focus on about this item. Preferred enemy is a potent benefit as re-rolls are always good and especially for an army that can suffer so much from just a few bad rolls. Fighting a preferred enemy powerfists will almost never fail to wound, your attacks are that little bit more likely to hit and this even applies to your ranged attacks. Since a model with this special rule grants the benefit to any squad they join it can greatly impace a squads reliability. The big limiting factor is that you must kill an enemy character in a challenge to gain these benefits but since characters range from Bloodthirsters and Hive tyrants all the way down to exarchs and imperial guard sergeants there is a reasonable chance that whatever army you face, you might be able to get your HQ into a fight they can win and thus make use of the porta-rack. I feel this item works better on a chaplain as they have more wounds and attacks so are both more likely to win challenges but also attract them as well. An opponent may well try and use a sergeant's challenge to limit the damage form your HQ so that more of his squad get to strike before the powerfists swing. (A quick side-note on challenges, in a deathwing army careful and sensible use of challenges can be game winning as it removes dangerous charging foes from attacking the rest of the unit or protects your HQ from excessive numbers of attacks and can even allow a single model to hold up an enormous horde of enemies because they can't kill your character and you also keep failing to kill them. The big issue is determining how to get a favourable challenge accepted.) Defensive Items Quick preface before the next few items, always remember that terminators come with a 5+ invulnerable save as standard. A better save is still worth considering because it increases your odds of suvivability but 'look out sir' and storm shields on regular terminators frequently make these items less important outside of challenges. In addition to this interrogator chaplains already come with a 4+ invulnerable save. Conversion field: Considering this is a 4+ invulnerable save it's quite cheap and the fringe benefit of potentially blinding people has merit but you'll likely only ever have it come up on combats and failing a blind test is only really likely against a few foes. Downside is that there is also a chance it could blind your own models (although unlikely) which would be very bad. There are some neat tricks to increase it's impact, although by virtue of choosing to take a wound on your character it is inherently risky. Arguably the most likely to happen in a game will be when your character is fighting a challenge, if you make your invulnerable save they have to test for blind and if they fail the whole unit you are fighting will be blind making your terminators more likely to hit and if the combat goes on for multiple rounds less likely to be hit. I stress that this is the ideal scenario and you are extremely unlikely to see it happen on the table but the potential is there. I don't take this item as points are generally tight and the benefits of upgrading my invulnerable save from 5+ to 4+ just aren't that impressive. I will make one exception, if you fight a lot of Necrons then the value of this option becomes a lot better, both for the increase to your save (due to their often low volume of high quality attacks), terrible initiative values and decent WS and BS. Blinding them can really mess with their plans. Displacer field: The cost of this item makes it quite difficult to make space for considering how restrictive points can be in a Deathwing army. However a 3+ invulnerable save is always good and a librarian wants good saves to help mitigate only having 2 wounds. The displacer effect is an interesting gimmick that has two consequences, one is of very questionable value and the other is much more likely to be of positive use. Whenever your unit is attacked and you make a save with the displacer field, displacement will move the model. He'll still be part of the unit because of the rules for joining and leaving units but this can move him out of coherency. So when enemy units shoot you there is an equal chance the character will be moved closer to the enemy or further away. This could make a charge more difficult or easier for your opponent or make an advance and charge easier or more difficult for you next turn depending on the direction. The more likely and generally more useful situation will be after a combat that you win. After all blows have been resolved your character will (in effect) get an additional D6" movement on top of consolidation albeit in a random direction. This can significantly increase your engagement threat for close combat in the following turn. Power field generator: This item is expensive and potentially a double edged sword, a 4+ invulnerable save for everything within 3" is amazing and can protect a whole unit of terminators or even a squadron of tanks, land raiders become extremely difficult to deal with when they have a good save. However it applies to everything within range so enemies will get the benefit as well. So you have to think carefully about how your list will work on the table when considering this item. Hiding a librarian behind a couple of land raiders has some very obvious merits but you are essentially sacrificing the combat aspect of the bearer and any unit he joins because you essentially deny half the wounding/damaging hits you inflict will be ignored because of the save you have granted them. Because the bearer cannot hide inside a transport and use this piece of wargear you will have to weigh up how suvivable you think the bearer will be on the table (and his unit) so anything that blocks line of sight has value. Which makes the land raider tactic a very practical one as the tanks can easily block line of sight. A good choice but very list dependent. Chapter relics: Foe smiter: It's a better storm bolter but that is just about all it is. The extra shot and better AP don't really feel like enough of a bump to justify paying so much. Not a good choice for a deathwing army in light of how tight points tend to be and how else you could spend those points. Lion's roar: There are two ways you can look at this gun, an expensive combi-weapon or a one-shot twin-linked plasma cannon. The twin-linked part comes from the master-crafted rule which results in the same effect and means you are very unlikely to overheat or scatter badly. Whether you feel this gun is worth it's cost will depend quite a lot of what types of armies you face frequently and also what the rest of your list contains but in general I would treat this as a luxury item to splash out on when you find the points spare. Mace of redemption: This is a great weapon but also quite expensive and somewhat less valuable when you consider that all of the HQ options you are likely buying this for already come with a decent melee weapon. Interrogator chaplains do value the AP and it is generally worth replacing your ranged weapon so you benefit from the extra attack for two close combat weapons. This is one of the very, very few ways you can get this extra attack and making your characters better combat opponents has an exponential component as the more enemies you kill before they can strike you and your terminators the fewer attacks coming your way and the more attacks you will have when the terminators get to strike. If you are taking an interrogator chaplain I would strongly consider it but it's very much a personal choice due to the cost and combat requirement. Monster slayer of Caliban: Just about everything said about the mace of redemption applies to this weapon as well but the cost is much higher and it is less reliably effective in combat due to the random table. If you face a lot of multi-wound opponents then there is some merit in considering this weapon but for the cost you could take an extra deathwing terminator and that will almost always be a better choice for your list. Shroud of Heroes: I would almost never take this item because the cost is so high, the shrouded special rule will only apply when the character is on their own and in general you will want your HQs inside of squads to act as wound sinks and support the regular terminators in combat. The only benefit that you will always gain from this is the 'feel no pain' rule that it grants the bearer. Feel no pain is a nice rule but I feel it's too many points for it on a single model who will at most have 3 wounds. There are some corner case combinations (such as a character on a bike who can take much greater advantage of the shrouded rule) but for the cost this relic is too expensive for a Deathwing list. Any item that costs more than a regular terminator has to be weighed against the benefit of that extra body. Some general guidelines for character and wargear selection for Deathwing: It is almost always worth bringing a second HQ to a Deathwing army, librarians in particular because of the excellent support they bring with their psychic powers. Due to the high coste per model/unit for the army it is best to decide on the character early in list construction but not worry about wargear until near the end once the rest of the list has been written. This is because it can be hard to estimate how many points you will have to play with until after you've completed the core of the list. Going back to a character and deciding which items you can bear to let go of can be harder than just re-starting from scratch because of the role you designed the character for originally. (Particularly true of combat characters.) A relatively good guideline to follow for cost is to compare your character to a venerable dreadnought. If the HQ costs more then you might want to reassess them as in some cases a dreadnought will be a more durable addition with potentially more table presence. (A good heavy weapon, armour and excellent tarpit potential.) I think that's all the relevent info I can come up with for each item. Have a read and let me know if you want any changes or clarifications. Kind regards Richard ”In war and Darkness they go, never flinching, never wavering. They fight those nightmares that would give pause to even the bravest of our race. They do this not because they are commanded or there is no one else. They do this because they are the Emperor's Angels of Death, the 1st, the Lion's own, they are the Dark Angels and where they go Evil quakes” -From the ancient book 'The winged sword', by remembrancer Brand Hallow Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485096 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 Like I said guys this is a work in progress. If it helps you great, if not then not a big deal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 While I haven't tried it yet, I don't think it's worth dismissing Azrael outright in a DW army, unless you are set on only fielding Terminators. With Azrael instead of Belial you get: - Chapter Master statline - LD 10 across the board, which is still useful despite being Fearless, especially if you are facing psykers (remember: Deathwing DO NOT HAVE Grim Resolve or ATSKNF, making them vulnerable to Terrify and other leadership shenanigans) - Your choice of warlord trait - 4++ Save for attached squad - Frag grenades He can't Deathwing Assault, but you can't put all of your Deathwing in reserves anyways so there is at least one squad that's going to be either footslogging or riding in a land raider. Now that squad can be attached to a melee monster that can grant them FnP, or Furious Charge, or improved mobility. The only real downside to Azrael is that I don't think he can take a Deathwing Command Squad unless you bring along an Interrogator Chaplain or Librarian. However, because Azrael has the Inner Circle rule he still benefits from the Deathwing banner! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485102 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpedro Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 wow... what a great article... I really enjoyed reading it... I have a Deathwing army on the way all the way from Poland... I live in The Woodlands, TX just getting back into WH40K after many, many years, and have always had a soft spot for Deathwing armies... I would love to see some army lists, especially to help me get started... I will post pics asap of the army I have so far, and I will be adding to it on a regular basis... especially some Land Raider Crusaders... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrender_Monkey Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 This is a great read, now I definitely want to do a Deathwing army.Three questions:1) If I buy a Land Raider using a heavy support choice, can I forego the Deathwing vehicle upgrade and still have terminators ride in it? If I were using it, as you suggested, to transport some Knights and a Librarian I think I'd want to take it, but if I needed to save a few points to squeeze something else in, this is what I'd look to first.2) You mention running a Land Raider Crusader as your transport of choice, but wouldn't the redeemer be a better choice? You can still get six guys in (five knights and a librarian) but I think since you're not taking the salvo banner and are intent on driving into the heart of the enemy the flamestorm cannons have got to be better than hurricane bolters, S6 AP3 ignoring cover? Yes please.3) What is your choice of second power for the Librarian? Normally I go for double divination hoping for perfect timing, but I normally run a shooty army where that makes sense. Stick with Divination looking for more blessings (Forewarning, Misfortune and Precognition would be useful, Foreboding situational) or go for something like Telepathy for some witchfire?I drew up a quick 1650pt list, unfortunately I wasn't able to get that big squad for Belial, but I think it looks pretty solid.BelialDeathwing Command Squad.- Thunder Hammers- Banner of FortitudeLibrarian- Terminator Armour- Rank 2Deathwing Terminator Squad- Cyclone Missile Launcher Deathwing Terminator Squad- Heavy FlamerDeathwing KnightsLand Raider Redeemer- Multi Melta- Deathwing Vehicle - Dozer BladeTotal: 1650I preferred the MM on the Land Raider to Digi Weapons on the Libby because the army is severely lacking in anti armour. 1650 seems to be the standard where I play, but for 1750 I'd look at a couple more terminators in one of the squads plus digi weapons for the librarian. Is two scoring units enough? I could move the thunder hammers to troops and drop the banner for three squads and have some points left over. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
InstantKarma Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 As a budding DA player, I am really loving these 'articles' on DA tactics. While not planing on a pure DW army, I do have two 5 man DW (or 1 10 man!) that I plan on running with my GW so these tactics on their use are very helpful. Also as a Tau player your scenarios are helpful for countering purposes! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Great read, I just wanted to add a bit about the command squad. I do get that you are talking from a pure-DW army standpoint, in that situation you are better off putting more points into expanding your full DW troop choices, rather than the non-scoring, non-foc slot limited squad size unit. But outside the pure DW armies, say a GW with DW support and a RW with DW support they can do pretty well. There are two combos of the command squad that I've found effective: Int-Chaplain 4xLC Terminators + DW Banner DW Champion Librarian - Force Axe - Prescience (if you go ML2 you can take pyschic Shriek) 3xLC Terminators + DW Banner DW Champion Apothecary Both of these squads at full strength can pack a wallop even if it is expected that you will lose some you're making the units you DO have leftover count. Squad A is putting out on a charge: 20 S4AP3 - LC Terms 4 S6 AP2 - Champ 5 S6 AP4 (concussive) (I5) - Chap All of those are re-rollable on misses (Zealot) and all those claws are re-rolling wounds Squad B is putting out on a charge: 15 S4AP3 (I4) 4 S6 Ap2 (I4) Champ 4 S8 AP2 (I1) Apoth 4 S5 AP2 (I1) Libby Again, if you hit your prescience you're rerolling all of them. They are pretty useful if they are in a well supported army! But given the point cost it's about all the room you'll have in the budget for DW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485541 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 The apothecary strikes with S4 AP- because he loses his power fist to get the narthecium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flake Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 For your analysis of Deathwing Knights, I feel you should mention their pseudo T5 and their ability to natively deny the witch on a 5+ with their adamantium will. While I agree that you generally want to put your TDA Libbies with standard Deathwing Units to tank and boost, the increase in survivability when your libby benefits from majority T5 and lowers the deny the witch to a 4+ (with a lvl 1 psyker) can be enough to win games against psyker and anti-infantry heavy armies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 The apothecary strikes with S4 AP- because he loses his power fist to get the narthecium. Totally right, that was a brainlapse. I also haven't used that apoth squad in a while, opting instead for the LC/Chap squad, their purpose is to go in and die! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I'm not really sure if I understand your second example for hammer & anvil tactics. The image shows about 1500 points of Deathwing fighting about 500 points of Tau? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Warrior Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 While I enjoyed this tactics are we going to address the abundance of grav weaponry? It seems to me, that a full unit of devcents with a split for sergeant could wipe two units of termies off of the board a turn even with a a 3++ save. LOS blocking terrain and manoeuvering is the only real answer. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
InstantKarma Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 While I enjoyed this tactics are we going to address the abundance of grav weaponry? It seems to me, that a full unit of devcents with a split for sergeant could wipe two units of termies off of the board a turn even with a a 3++ save. LOS blocking terrain and manoeuvering is the only real answer. Or hitting them first. DWs have the advantage of DWA and unlike Cents, a ++ to one degree or another. Plasma weps seem like they were designed to kill Cents. I'd also point out their Grav-cannons are limited to a 24in range, while grav-guns are a merely 18in. Plasma Gun or Cannon will have between 6 - 12in jump over it's grav counter part and the cannon in particular would have an easy time getting hits with those big bases the Cents have. Also if we were to have a full TT/SS DW squad, no way it would be wipped out, even with 15 BS re-roll hits/wounds. On average you have 13 hits, and 11 wounds (thats with the re-roll), and with the 3++ would leave you with 4 dead termies. Now the standard 5++ would change that to 7 dead DW, which is pretty nasty. If we had a guy with a PFG you end up with about 4-5 dead Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 4, 2013 Author Share Posted October 4, 2013 While I haven't tried it yet, I don't think it's worth dismissing Azrael outright in a DW army, unless you are set on only fielding Terminators. With Azrael instead of Belial you get: - Chapter Master statline - LD 10 across the board, which is still useful despite being Fearless, especially if you are facing psykers (remember: Deathwing DO NOT HAVE Grim Resolve or ATSKNF, making them vulnerable to Terrify and other leadership shenanigans) - Your choice of warlord trait - 4++ Save for attached squad - Frag grenades He can't Deathwing Assault, but you can't put all of your Deathwing in reserves anyways so there is at least one squad that's going to be either footslogging or riding in a land raider. Now that squad can be attached to a melee monster that can grant them FnP, or Furious Charge, or improved mobility. The only real downside to Azrael is that I don't think he can take a Deathwing Command Squad unless you bring along an Interrogator Chaplain or Librarian. However, because Azrael has the Inner Circle rule he still benefits from the Deathwing banner! If you taking Azrael instead of Belial you loose Belial's non-scattering ability. This regulates you to ranged shooting and limits your ability to strike exactly where you need to, thus blunting your DWA alpha strike. This is bad. Dropping his unit behind enemy lines to shoot rear armor, or to use vengeance strike's re-roll wounds ability with heavy flamers is brutal and shouldn't be thrown away lightly. Plus bad scatters can subject you to another round of shooting before you get to charge. Belial can guarantee a next round charge. Frag grenades are good, but not giving your Lib (attatched to DWK in a LR) terminator armor you still have them. Also a LRC has frag launchers, giving the unit that exits it frag nades that turn. Az 4+ invul is wasted on the DWK as they all have a 3+ invuln. Remember the DWK don't benefit from vengeance strike, so they should be in the transports, not shooting terms. Also the warlord trait of furious charge wouldn't benefit the DWK as they are hitting at S6 or S10, which should kill most things. Az doesn't give FNP to his unit, only himself. Placing him with a normal troop choice limits them from DWAing. Again this blunts your alpha strike and doesn't benefit from vengeance strike. That also limits them to footslogging or a LR. Ideally you don't want terms walking, as they excel in CC, not shooting. This also limits their exposer to shooting, which is important. Don't get me wrong I love Az, but in with a term heavy list Belial is more valuable. This is a great read, now I definitely want to do a Deathwing army. Three questions: 1) If I buy a Land Raider using a heavy support choice, can I forego the Deathwing vehicle upgrade and still have terminators ride in it? If I were using it, as you suggested, to transport some Knights and a Librarian I think I'd want to take it, but if I needed to save a few points to squeeze something else in, this is what I'd look to first. 2) You mention running a Land Raider Crusader as your transport of choice, but wouldn't the redeemer be a better choice? You can still get six guys in (five knights and a librarian) but I think since you're not taking the salvo banner and are intent on driving into the heart of the enemy the flamestorm cannons have got to be better than hurricane bolters, S6 AP3 ignoring cover? Yes please. 3) What is your choice of second power for the Librarian? Normally I go for double divination hoping for perfect timing, but I normally run a shooty army where that makes sense. Stick with Divination looking for more blessings (Forewarning, Misfortune and Precognition would be useful, Foreboding situational) or go for something like Telepathy for some witchfire? I drew up a quick 1650pt list, unfortunately I wasn't able to get that big squad for Belial, but I think it looks pretty solid. Belial Deathwing Command Squad. - Thunder Hammers - Banner of Fortitude Librarian - Terminator Armour - Rank 2 Deathwing Terminator Squad - Cyclone Missile Launcher Deathwing Terminator Squad - Heavy Flamer Deathwing Knights Land Raider Redeemer - Multi Melta - Deathwing Vehicle - Dozer Blade Total: 1650 I preferred the MM on the Land Raider to Digi Weapons on the Libby because the army is severely lacking in anti armour. 1650 seems to be the standard where I play, but for 1750 I'd look at a couple more terminators in one of the squads plus digi weapons for the librarian. Is two scoring units enough? I could move the thunder hammers to troops and drop the banner for three squads and have some points left over. 1)Yes. If you take the LR as a dedicated transport you HAVE to take the Deathwing Vehicle upgrade. If you take it as a heavy choice you don't have too. I agree, I'd rather had the upgrade, but sometimes there just isn't the points. 2)Yes. A redeemer would be a great choice, but I wouldn't discount the LRC's range. I don't own a redeemer, so I go with the LRC. I'll try to proxy it one of these times and let you know. Good input! 3)The second power if up to you. Sometime sI don't have the spare points for a second power, but if I do I go with Physic shreik (Awesome) or just roll twice on divination. I like your list. 1600 pts is kind of low for a DW list. I'd drop either the DWC or the DWK and add more scoring units. If you are playing something like the relic or the scouring you are going to be at a huge disadvantage. If they focus those two units you're probably going to lose. Thanks for the feed back! Also as a Tau player your scenarios are helpful for countering purposes!You sir are the enemy. Get out. :p For your analysis of Deathwing Knights, I feel you should mention their pseudo T5 and their ability to natively deny the witch on a 5+ with their adamantium will. While I agree that you generally want to put your TDA Libbies with standard Deathwing Units to tank and boost, the increase in survivability when your libby benefits from majority T5 and lowers the deny the witch to a 4+ (with a lvl 1 psyker) can be enough to win games against psyker and anti-infantry heavy armies.Doh! I forgot about T5! I'll have to pour over that section and add some survivabilty stats there. Great catch. I agree I love my Lib in that unit. Remember they only get the admantium will if you buy the 10pt watcher relic. The apothecary strikes with S4 AP- because he loses his power fist to get the narthecium. Totally right, that was a brainlapse. I also haven't used that apoth squad in a while, opting instead for the LC/Chap squad, their purpose is to go in and die!I updated that section to show how horrible the apothecary is compared to a normal term. I'm not really sure if I understand your second example for hammer & anvil tactics. The image shows about 1500 points of Deathwing fighting about 500 points of Tau?You understand it's an example right? When I get the time to add more sections like deployment and alphastrike I'll add more complete versions of a board. I have a few examples battles in the links of my sig. While I enjoyed this tactics are we going to address the abundance of grav weaponry? It seems to me, that a full unit of devcents with a split for sergeant could wipe two units of termies off of the board a turn even with a a 3++ save. LOS blocking terrain and manoeuvering is the only real answer.Yeah, this is what I was talking about in the intro. Some of the new weapons, units, special rules etc..etc... have created a power curve that our new rules hasn't kept up with. A unit of Grav cannon cents would be a target priority. Hopefully your alpha strike kills 1 or 2 before they get to shoot. Lets check some simple mathhammer here (I'll add this in the main section later when I'm not in a hurry.) Normal Terms Vs 3 gravcannon wielding cents Attacker Group 1 Shots: 15 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 10 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 8.333 Saved Wounds: 2.778 Unsaved Wounds: 5.556 Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2 Against normal terms you can see these are devistating with 5 wounds dished out. Note if they happened to split fire that would actually benefit you as they wouldn't be killing a whole unit. SS Terms Vs 3 gravcannon wielding cents Attacker Group 1 Shots: 15 Hit Chance: 66.67% Hits: 10 Wound Chance: 83.33% Wounds: 8.333 Saved Wounds: 5.556 Unsaved Wounds: 2.778 Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2 Against TH/SS terms they fair worse, but not dramatically, with 2.7 (or 3 wounds). This would be a great time to Belial to tank some of these hits. Saving two terms and letting you dish out a brutal charge next turn can even the playing field. Now my tanking idea isn't so bad right? Thanks for the input guys. Remember I'm not a pro. I'm just tossing up what works for me. I know there are some solid DW guys here and I'm not trying to step on toes. If you have a idea toss it up and I'll add it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 On the subject of land raiders in heavy support slots vs dedicated transports, if you play the Big Guns Never Tire mission your (almost) unkillable heavy support land raider is also a scoring unit! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3485908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 ~sigh~. Caveat Emptor, people. I applaud brother Typher for putting in the effort to write this, but I have a feeling that it's the product of a debate that he and I recently had. The write-up on Belial is pretty biased and unsurprisingly ignores some things that I pointed out to him (because they undermine the TH/SS as the "obvious" choice for Belial to carry). Also, the description of terminator troops squads is a little thin, he only discusses the two ways that he employs them. There are others, believe you me! The rest of the HQ write up is missing a few things, too. He doesn't mention that a librarian (which I use) doesn't need to be in the squad that he's augmenting with prescience. If your only concern is providing rerolls, take the librarian and keep him out of combat! If you want your character to fight, the interrogator chaplain with the mace. Accept no substitute! Also, he ignores Belial's telehomer (the only one we have that isn't on a bike!), presumably because he doesn't use it. I guess the bottom line is that this is an opinion piece that explains how the author fights and why. Do not assume that it covers all of the options or is at all objective! I'm typing on my phone now. Maybe I'll write up a more thorough alternate view of Belial and an expansion of the troops section when I get home. As for the crusader versus the redeemer...you don't need anti-MEQ shooting, you have terminators. What your powerfists stink at is killing enough guardsmen, greenskins, or gaunts fast enough. The sexy anti-MEQ flamer just makes you better at what you already do best, maybe once a game. The hurribolters on the crusader should be shooting at least four times. Honestly, their range and rate of fire might even make them better against MEQs! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486054 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Company Master in Terminator Armor? 10 pts cheaper than an Interrogator Chaplain in TDA, has 1 more point of WS and AP3 in melee, and can take a Storm Shield. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486232 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 ~sigh~. Caveat Emptor, people. I applaud brother Typher for putting in the effort to write this, but I have a feeling that it's the product of a debate that he and I recently had. Well first off thank you. I did put a lot of time in this so far and your comment is welcomed. The second part of your statement is incorrect however, as I really haven't seen a lot of DW information from you and only asked about your Belial loadout preference because it was the first time I've seen a comment about it. As for the timing, I've been collecting information for awhile. I suppose I could have inflated the intro part of my port about how I played alot in 3rd Ed and in 5th, but took a break for a couple of years before returning when our 6th ed codex came out. I suppose I could have stated that there really isn't a large repository of information about playing a pure DW list in 6th ed and that trial and error often leads to misgivings and unfun gaming. I do like to help people (Seeing how that's what I do in the world) and coupled with my compulsion to categorize things to make them flow better I have been collecting information for awhile now. Anyway I'll stray from cautioning hubris and say that you had nothing to do with this. The write-up on Belial is pretty biased and unsurprisingly ignores some things that I pointed out to him (because they undermine the TH/SS as the "obvious" choice for Belial to carry). Also, the description of terminator troops squads is a little thin, he only discusses the two ways that he employs them. There are others, believe you me! The rest of the HQ write up is missing a few things, too. He doesn't mention that a librarian (which I use) doesn't need to be in the squad that he's augmenting with prescience. If your only concern is providing rerolls, take the librarian and keep him out of combat! If you want your character to fight, the interrogator chaplain with the mace. Accept no substitute! Also, he ignores Belial's telehomer (the only one we have that isn't on a bike!), presumably because he doesn't use it. I understand what you pointed out to me, but crunching the numbers we see that striking first isn't always a factor. I forget what the percentage was for 10 tac marines to kill a terminator, but believe it was about 8% difference if the SoS killed it's 1.6 marines before they swung. That isn't very huge. But Still, I don't have a problem with the SoS. It's a solid weapon and is easily on par with the TH. The real winner here is the SS, which will keep more models on the board. But, even with that said.. taking the SoS isn't a bad choice. As for the DW troops. you are right. I've only given two ways I PLAY THEM. I even state that this is the was I PLAY THEM. I also wrote that this is a work in progress, and take what you will from it and discard what doesn't apply to you. I understand there are other strategies here. I'd love to hear them. I've given facts, and stats. My goal here is to educate, not blindly bash. I have no problem changing some of my tactics if you can show me a better way. I welcome different approached and would like this to be a collective en-devour as opposed to a 1 man show. I believe I've asked for that a couple of times. Hopefully I've been respectful about it. This work isn't complete. I know I've said it before, but I will cover it again under deployment why I usually deploy my Lib with the DWK. It's rather simple. Reserve limit. a DWK unit + Lib + LRC = 3, giving me 4 units in DWA. I'd much rather have tanking in a DW Term unit, but I can't change the rule as written. Of course we know that foot slogging terms is a horrible idea. And, no.. I don't know why you'd keep the lib out of combat. If you look at his stats he's easily on par with a I-Chap, and in fact can be MORE effective then him against some enemies. I suppose I should talk about Belial's T. homer. I could say that it's nice to have, but over all it runs contrary to his non-scatter rule. We should use our rules to our advantage. DWA + Non-scatter equals a high chance for first blood and hopefully a crippling strike. Now if we wait for a LR with Belial to get close enough (or if his LR gets destroyed or immobilized) his homer is useless and your alpha strike faulters. Not to mention the ability or your opponent deploying his sensitive units away from belial, again limited your alpha strike. DWAing him removes both of those problems. Again, I won't say that I'm arrogant enough to dismiss it as useless, I'm just saying it seems much less useful that not-scattering. I welcome opposing views though and would love to see it shine. I guess the bottom line is that this is an opinion piece that explains how the author fights and why. Do not assume that it covers all of the options or is at all objective! I'm typing on my phone now. Maybe I'll write up a more thorough alternate view of Belial and an expansion of the troops section when I get home. You are correct. It is a work in progress. My intent wasn't to rub people the wrong way, or force my opinions (Or sometimes stats) down anyone's throat. I believe I've stated such a couple of times in it so far. My hope to have a comprehensive volume of information, with workable lists and strats. I'd much rather have a collective effort as opposed to a fractioning of those ideas. PM me with your text and I'll paste it with full credit to you, or feel free to write your own. Either way. Like I said I'm not hear to step on toes. Just help people. As for the crusader versus the redeemer...you don't need anti-MEQ shooting, you have terminators. What your powerfists stink at is killing enough guardsmen, greenskins, or gaunts fast enough. The sexy anti-MEQ flamer just makes you better at what you already do best, maybe once a game. The hurribolters on the crusader should be shooting at least four times. Honestly, their range and rate of fire might even make them better against MEQs!I've never used a redeemer before. If you were playing a horde army like Orks, nids, Tau or Ig, wouldn't two high strength low AP flame templates help clear the field? I'll have to crunch some numbers, but I wouldn't discount it completely over a LRC. But much like the SoS/TH debate... if it works for you. Anyway I hope to hear from you.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486236 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Company Master in Terminator Armor? 10 pts cheaper than an Interrogator Chaplain in TDA, has 1 more point of WS and AP3 in melee, and can take a Storm Shield.Very true.. I'll add it to the list... It's unconventional but fun. I'lll run some numbers tomorrow. It doesn't look like he'll perform as good as either the Lib or IC. How would you run him? What gear? In what unit? How do you think he's more valuable that taking a Lib or IC? Sell me on this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syphid Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Company Master in Terminator Armor? 10 pts cheaper than an Interrogator Chaplain in TDA, has 1 more point of WS and AP3 in melee, and can take a Storm Shield.Very true.. I'll add it to the list... It's unconventional but fun. I'lll run some numbers tomorrow. It doesn't look like he'll perform as good as either the Lib or IC. How would you run him? What gear? In what unit? How do you think he's more valuable that taking a Lib or IC? Sell me on this. Well, this is my thinking: If you are going to run a model with Mace of Redemption and you're fighting against Chaos Space Marines, then why wouldn't you take WS 6 for ten points cheaper? You lose Zealot, but because of Inner Circle you're going to be Fearless and re-rolling 1's to hit and wound anyways. With WS 6 you are increasing the number of units you hit on 3's and reducing the number of units that can hit you on 3's. Add in the ability to take a storm shield while still being almost even with an Interrogator Chaplain for points, and and I think the Company Master comes out ahead when facing Chaos. No subtlety or tactics with this HQ, just get him into melee and soak up challenges. Like anything, it depends on your opponent. I face a lot of CSM so that's usually where my plans come from. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Company Master in Terminator Armor? 10 pts cheaper than an Interrogator Chaplain in TDA, has 1 more point of WS and AP3 in melee, and can take a Storm Shield. Very true.. I'll add it to the list... It's unconventional but fun. I'lll run some numbers tomorrow. It doesn't look like he'll perform as good as either the Lib or IC. How would you run him? What gear? In what unit? How do you think he's more valuable that taking a Lib or IC? Sell me on this. Well, this is my thinking: If you are going to run a model with Mace of Redemption and you're fighting against Chaos Space Marines, then why wouldn't you take WS 6 for ten points cheaper? You lose Zealot, but because of Inner Circle you're going to be Fearless and re-rolling 1's to hit and wound anyways. With WS 6 you are increasing the number of units you hit on 3's and reducing the number of units that can hit you on 3's. Add in the ability to take a storm shield while still being almost even with an Interrogator Chaplain for points, and and I think the Company Master comes out ahead when facing Chaos. No subtlety or tactics with this HQ, just get him into melee and soak up challenges. Like anything, it depends on your opponent. I face a lot of CSM so that's usually where my plans come from. Cool. I'll run the numbers and compare him to the other two options. I'm on my phone now so i can't paste stats. On a side note you got me thinking.. A I-Chap who replaces his storm bolter for the Mace of Redemption, while keeping his mace gains another attack for a total of 4 (5 on the charge). Vs marines he will have a 3.7 wound average on the charge! Sure he loses shooting, but WOW. A CM and a Lib armed with the mace only come in at 2.2 wounds. I'll crunch some numbers on him too. A IC armed this way will reduces the enemy marines chance to kill a term before they get to strike to only 25%. Compare that to the SoS, which will average 2 marine kills which leave the enemy marines a 33% chance to kill a term before they strike, and a TH, which averages 2 kills after the marines strike with a 41% chance. Not bad. He can also tank some, with 3 wounds and a 4+ invuln. Hmmmmm. Anyone tried this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Okay, I'm home now. Perhaps I could have been more diplomatic in my earlier post. I think I've figured out why your tactica rubbed me the wrong way. It's the inconsistency. AP4 on a heavy flamer is good. AP4 on a Crozius Arcanum or force staff is bad. AP3 on a force sword is good. AP3 on the SoS is bad. Enemies with 2+ armor are so numerous that the SoS's AP3 is a deal-breaker, but AP2 weapons that strike at initiative and high-T enemies without 2+ armor are too rare to worry about.As for the factor that you are leaving out vis a vis Belial, Typher, it's not Belial's ability to kill a MEQ before the MEQ potentially kills a member of Belial's squad. You discussed that. What's missing is the big picture surrounding Belial. If you arm him with TH/SS, he doesn't do anything that a thundernator can't do. Yes, the thunderhammer punches tanks better than the SoS. But not any better than any other thunderhammer. And you can have all the thunderhammers you want, so the value of giving Belial one is pretty low. On the other hand, how many I5 WS6 fleshbane AP3 swords are there in the entire game system? I'm not saying that the SoS is better than a thunderhammer against all targets all the time, I'm saying that when the TH is better, you have plenty of them being carried by other marines. The times when the SoS is better might not be common, but when they do turn up, there's nothing else in your list that can do the job.As for the storm shield, it's definitely better than the storm bolter. I would take SoS and SS if I could. And the old version of Belial, with only a 5++, needed the shield. If he still had that 5++, there would be no question that the TH/SS is not just better, but necessary. But he found his iron halo. The difference between 4++ and 3++ is not the same as the difference between 5++ and 3++. It's a 33% improvement instead of a 100% improvement.I understand that the 3++ is critical if you're "tanking" Belial. The trick of throwing him in front (assuming that there is a "front," the enemy does have a vote in what angle he's shooting from) and then eating fire to thin him down to his last wound for the sake of keeping scoring terminators alive has some merit. In fact, I used him exactly that way in 5th edition. His statline was mediocre and he brought absolutely nothing to the fight after he got done unlocking scoring termies. Might as well be a bullet sponge.That's no longer wise. Not only has he gotten better in melee, there's now the "warlord" victory point to consider. If you use him as a bullet sponge, not only are you wasting his offensive capabilities, but you're practically giving away that VP for killing him. You certainly dare not accept a challenge with him...which undermines the "but the SoS's AP3 is not good enough for challenges" argument, by the way. I suppose I should talk about Belial's T. homer. I could say that it's nice to have, but over all it runs contrary to his non-scatter rule. We should use our rules to our advantage. DWA + Non-scatter equals a high chance for first blood and hopefully a crippling strike. Now if we wait for a LR with Belial to get close enough (or if his LR gets destroyed or immobilized) his homer is useless and your alpha strike faulters. Not to mention the ability or your opponent deploying his sensitive units away from belial, again limited your alpha strike. DWAing him removes both of those problems. Again, I won't say that I'm arrogant enough to dismiss it as useless, I'm just saying it seems much less useful that not-scattering. I welcome opposing views though and would love to see it shine. Belials telehomer is the only one that we have that isn't mounted on a bike...and therefore the only one available to a pure deathwing force. If you deepstrike Belial via DWA, you get exactly one squad down scatter-free. But there's no limit to the number of units that can use his telehomer to avoid scattering. Obviously, if you're using his telehomer, you're putting him in a land raider. The telehomer bubble extends from the hull of the tank, making for a huge non-scatter bubble. As an added bonus, the tank's hull can be used to block LOS and protect the DWAing terminators from being shot at by any enemy units that they're not targeting with vengeance strike.If you plan your DWA for turn two, the DWA can land with the edge of one model's base a hair's breadth less than 24" from your starting point. In other words, anywhere on the board you want. Sure, it's funny to call it an alpha strike on the second turn, but if you've prevented the enemy from doing anything useful up to that point and the DWA has the desired effect, then the term fits.As for the tank getting stopped before it can get the telehomer where you want it, that is a valid criticism...but if the enemy manages to blow up a venerable land raider with a 4++ save, don't you think he's earned it? That outcome is significantly less likely than an interceptor *cough*riptide*cough* ripping up your non-scattering squad before it gets a chance to shoot.I've run through this a few times before, but here's one way that the telehomer carried by a crusader can be extremely effective.Run two crusaders side by side, choosing to go second for two reasons. First, so that you see the enemy's deployment before you put the tanks on the board (making "deploying away from Belial" pretty hard to do, especially when you don't know what he's targeting), and second so that you give the enemy nothing to shoot at, except for the crusaders, on turns one and two. Run a librarian on a bike with a PFG and prescience right behind them to provide the 4++. Inside one crusader is Belial with a HF/CF melee terminator squad. Inside the other is a squad of knights. On turn one, drive 12" straight towards your target. Go flat out if it's cowering at the board edge. You can be 6" across the centerline if you want to. On turn two, drop your DWA in a spot where the tanks can screen them from enemy fire without blocking their own fire (after the tanks move, so you'll be dropping the DWA forward of the tanks somewhat). Then move the tanks, shoot the tanks and the DWA, and then charge with two crusaderloads of pain. One nice thing about this is that if the enemy thinks he can blow up a shielded venerable crusader before the bottom of turn two, he has a tough choice to make...which one?DWAing Belial and 10 friends is a nice alpha strike, but it's almost certainly a death sentence because you're throwing him out there alone to draw the enemy in a direction of your choosing, or rushing to get support to him from across the table, or risking scatter with the rest of the DWA. Using a combination of a crusader rush and DWA, you deliver your entire army into the same area so nobody's left unsupported, and you give the enemy nothing but shielded venerable crusaders to shoot at for 1/3 of the game.Now, on the topic of the redeemer. The main thing that's wrong with it is the range of the flamers. It's short to begin with, and it's measured from two separate points on opposite flanks of the tank. It's almost impossible to get more than one of them on target, and even then, you're relying on luck or a mistake by the enemy to give you more than 2-3 hits unless you sacrifice the positioning of the assault ramp in order to ensure the best possible positioning of the one flamer that you're trying to use. Sure, the idea that on a battlefield bedecked with a living carpet of nids or greenskins, you can just drive around and murder dozens of them per turn is attractive. But the reality is that you have to maneuver the side sponson of the tank into a very specific spot to get good results, and doing that more than once per game is unlikely. Against MEQs, one good shot might be enough, but the sixteen shots that a crusader can throw off every turn (ten at long range) will virtually always kill more whether it's MEQs or grots you're targeting, and will pretty much never force you to compromise movement or facing (critical to proper use of the assault ramp!) to get a shot off. The redeemer was okay with a squishy scoring unit inside as an objective camper in 5th edition. Who would dare come running towards those flamers? Now that you can't score from inside the tank, its utility as a transport is diminished. It needs to run around trying to fry stuff, which isn't always compatible with delivering assault troops to their target. JMHO, YMMV, but it's a scary gimmick tank whose bark is worse than its bite. Stick with the proven crusader. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted October 5, 2013 Share Posted October 5, 2013 Company Master in Terminator Armor? 10 pts cheaper than an Interrogator Chaplain in TDA, has 1 more point of WS and AP3 in melee, and can take a Storm Shield.Very true.. I'll add it to the list... It's unconventional but fun. I'lll run some numbers tomorrow. It doesn't look like he'll perform as good as either the Lib or IC. How would you run him? What gear? In what unit? How do you think he's more valuable that taking a Lib or IC? Sell me on this. Well, this is my thinking: If you are going to run a model with Mace of Redemption and you're fighting against Chaos Space Marines, then why wouldn't you take WS 6 for ten points cheaper? You lose Zealot, but because of Inner Circle you're going to be Fearless and re-rolling 1's to hit and wound anyways. With WS 6 you are increasing the number of units you hit on 3's and reducing the number of units that can hit you on 3's. Add in the ability to take a storm shield while still being almost even with an Interrogator Chaplain for points, and and I think the Company Master comes out ahead when facing Chaos. No subtlety or tactics with this HQ, just get him into melee and soak up challenges. Like anything, it depends on your opponent. I face a lot of CSM so that's usually where my plans come from. I wish I faced more C:SM...knights are just...WRONG against them, lol...but I'm not willing to say that a master is better just because he can do a similar job for ten points fewer against one army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted October 5, 2013 Author Share Posted October 5, 2013 Ap4 on a hvy flamer that re-rolls woulds can hit 6+ models even with 3+ armor thats several kills. Compared to a chaplain's 1 wound average. Auto hit, re-roll wound multiple targets... We shouldn't even be discussing this. I never said the SoS is bad. Ap3 is great, i've even show where it's better than the TH. the problem is it's not clearly better at most it's pretty much equal to the TH. I don't understand your arguement about it's uniqueness. Being unique isn't a factor on why you should take something. As for you TH comments, why is it bad to take more? If they are performing why discount them? If your point is to have something different then it's lost on me. Performance is the key, not diversity. And OF COURSE you won't tank Belial until he dies. I really don't mind a debate, but c'mon... That train of thought is almost insulting. As for your list, I like it. I don't run 2 LR but if you do, i can see your tactics being solid. There are some drawbacks, like less bodies, i tend to take either more scoring terms or a DWC with the banner, you also run the chance of losing a vehicle early or the Lib, and can't DWA in the most useful spot. Are you familiar with vassal? A batrep would be awesome. Elipho need to make a couple Too. I have a battle vs the new C:SM i need to make. But there is always risks in any list and I won't discount yours. It's solid. I like that there is more than one way to play DW, which seems to have a steep learning curve. I have no point of referance for the redeemer so I'll not jump in that fight. Anyway I'm going to bed. I'll probably add More to this tomorrow. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/#findComment-3486307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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