Deathwing: Tactica

[Dafoo]

Thank you for the quick reference math. I was getting sick of pulling out my calculator. I noticed Imperial Guard Flashlights were not in the tanking section. I guess I got lucky I haven't had much success with knights. Although I have a LOT of IG, Eldar and Tau where I play; C:SM are common too I am willing to bet they have been giddy with their new GravGuns even though I haven't had to run into either player since the update.

 

I REALLY like this Dual Landraider idea but I am curious why everyone tends to favor melee for terminators? I couldn't get a squad into CC to save my life in a couple games and the TL AC has worked wonders with me in the past (Splitfire on the nearest nut to crack open?). Furthermore against Orks DE IG CSM SM BA SW CD Eldar and Nids You can not count on having the charge or initiative let alone the first shot (unless you are in a LR); Against any of those codices you will have the same STR, AP and Saves that you would have with a TH unless they are hitting you at the same Initiative. I don't understand why I would pay 5 pts a model to cancel out two of my special abilities and get a 3++ I will rarely use and have a 24" shorter range of affect.

 

Gravguns get 5 wounds on a squad of Terminators? That sounds like a dead squad of Terminators no matter how you cut it. In particular when you are running 5 man Termie squads (like most DW Armies).

 

Belials Teleport Homer is awesome. You need it. You love it. I used to run an 11 man Belial super deep strike and other than a turn one slay the warlord, first blood and the hunt VC all I got was disappointment afterwards. It was great for apocalypse though!

 

I feel like Rifleman Dreadnaughts should get a mention on this tactica as well. I know they are not the most cost effective but having 2-3 Long range support dreads in your backfield can help a lot. Especially if you want your terminators to deepstrike somewhere else. Worst case scenario you draw fire from LR Belial and his beacon of hope for your 4 DS Terminators. But most of the time they ignore them while they aim at your LR and you get to fire a STR 8-9 shots at BS 5 downrange for 3-4 turns. Of which I am a huge fan.

[march10k]

 

I REALLY like this Dual Landraider idea but I am curious why everyone tends to favor melee for terminators? I couldn't get a squad into CC to save my life in a couple games and the TL AC has worked wonders with me in the past (Splitfire on the nearest nut to crack open?). Furthermore against Orks DE IG CSM SM BA SW CD Eldar and Nids You can not count on having the charge or initiative let alone the first shot (unless you are in a LR); Against any of those codices you will have the same STR, AP and Saves that you would have with a TH unless they are hitting you at the same Initiative. I don't understand why I would pay 5 pts a model to cancel out two of my special abilities and get a 3++ I will rarely use and have a 24" shorter range of affect.

[...]
I feel like Rifleman Dreadnaughts should get a mention on this tactica as well. I know they are not the most cost effective but having 2-3 Long range support dreads in your backfield can help a lot. Especially if you want your terminators to deepstrike somewhere else. Worst case scenario you draw fire from LR Belial and his beacon of hope for your 4 DS Terminators. But most of the time they ignore them while they aim at your LR and you get to fire a STR 8-9 shots at BS 5 downrange for 3-4 turns. Of which I am a huge fan.

I can answer the first bit. People favor melee for terminators because they're extremely good at it, and extremely inefficient at shooting. Let's compare a ten man tactical squad to a tactical terminator squad. We'll give the tactical squad no upgrades except for a plasma cannon and a powerfist in the interest of making the two units as similar as possible. The terminators get a plasma cannon also.

Cost:

The terminators cost 245 for five models, tactical squad costs 180 for ten. So the terminators need to do a MUCH better job, since you get half as many models for 1/3 more points.

Shooting:

Beyond 24", it's the same, one plasma cannon. At 24", add nine boltgun shots for the tacticals (unrealistic, they'd normally have a special weapon instead of one of the shots), and eight for the terminators. Inside 12", it's still eight shots for the terminators, but it's 18 for the tactical squad. Clearly, you get more and better shooting from a tactical squad than from a terminator squad, in spite of the termies costing more!

Being shot at:

AP4 and worse (most weapons, but includes every standard infantry weapon, so there are a lot of them): Terminator armor fails half as many saves, but there are half as many terminators...so it's even.

AP3 (um...krak missiles, mainly). Here, in this small category, the termies have a significant advantage. Thing is, there aren't that many AP3 shooting weapons, and they tend to be antitank weapons, so the volume of fire is going to be low.

AP2 and better. Termies have a 5+ save, marines have no save. Assuming no cover save, and a cover save would wipe out any terminator advantage, termies save 1/3 of wounds...but only have half as many models. Termies are far worse than marines here!

Overall, if you're going to be shot at, it's far better to have twice as many power armored models for fewer points!

Melee Defense:

Non-AP weapons: same story as lasguns. Terminators fail half as many wounds, but have half as many models. They do cost more per wound, so marines have an advantage here.

AP3 weapons: This is generally as good as it's going to get if you want to strike at initiative. Marines get no save, and terminators get a 2+!

AP2 weapons: Generally, this means striking last, which runs the risk of dying without striking! Terminators have a 5+ save natively, and access to a 3+ save via a storm shield.

Overall, when it comes to resisting enemy melee, on a per-point basis, marines and terminators are about equal. This may surprise people who tend to think in terms of per-model defense, where the terminator is obviously superior.

Melee offense:

Here's where the terminator brings it home. The default weapon on every model is a powerfist. And every model has base 2 attacks, versus 1 for the marines. Terminators are matching the number of attacks (assuming no charge bonus) that marines get with combat knives...only they're doing it with powerfists. S8 AP2 on every attack, versus S4 AP-. The offensive output of terminators in melee is off the charts. And they have the option of dropping the fist for a pair of claws, which drops them to S4 and AP3, but lets them reroll wounds and gives them an extra attack. Or, for 5 points, they get a TH/SS, which gives them good protection against plasma, melta, and lascannons, as well as enemy AP2 melee weapons. Surprisingly, people continue to favor the powerfist on sergeants, in spite of how it cripples them in a challenge by making them go last, so the storm shield lets them eat marines in melee without taking much pain in return. Also, the Thunderhammer has a few special rules that the powerfist lacks, but I find that they rarely impact the game. The tactical squad's only melee weapon that has an AP value is carried by the sergeant, who is vulnerable to being challenged. This not only puts him at special risk of being killed, but challenging him eliminates his ability to apply potential S8 AP2 wounds to the enemy squad. In theory, the tactical sergeant, having charged, might apply as many as three such wounds to...well, an enemy sergeant, netting one kill, and he might still die in the process! The advantage of the terminators is not only that they have more AP melee weapons than normal, they also can't be sidelined in a challenge. Also, they have access to chainfists, which nobody else can have. This makes them premiere tankbusters. Melta weapons, the shooty equivalent to the chainfist, are almost universally going to get one shot per turn. The chainfist gets as many attacks as the terminator gets. While a powerfist gives a tactical squad a fighting chance against a vehicle with a WS profile, a powerfist on every model ensures that terminators will win the combat, and a chainfist will virtually always penetrate on every hit. In fact, chainfists usually penetrate AV14, while powerfists need 6s to glance, and are marginal against AV13.

Summary:

Tactical dreadnought armor is actually worse than power armor, on a point for point basis, whether you're in shooting or in melee. Point-for-point and squad for squad, terminator shooting is also worse than tactical marine shooting. The only real advantage that terminators have is their incredible damage output in melee. Therefore, that's where they belong. Now, in 6th edition, the addition of the vengeance strike rule has buffed terminator shooting slightly, and the nerfing of power weapons has reduced the need for storm shields somewhat, and (rightly so) there has been a points cost attached to the storm shield, all in an attempt to make the basic tactical terminator a good choice, which it hasn't been since way back in 3rd edition. I think it's succeeded. The Thunderhammer isn't really better than the powerfist in melee, and the standard complaint about thundernators is that they aren't shooting when they're not in melee. Terminators still belong in melee, but the changes are enough that it's reasonable to suggest that the stormbolter version is at least as good as the thunderhammer version because it has inifinitely more damage output in between melee sessions and very similar performance in melee, especially on a per-point basis. Personally, I no longer DWA thundernators, but I do load up a crusader with them, because the time spent inside the tank, combined with the inability to benefit from vengeance strike, wipe out any reason to take stormbolters.

I do like the idea of mortis dreads, but I don't have any...why don't you write about them? Typher's intent is that this tactica be a community effort.

 

Gravguns get 5 wounds on a squad of Terminators? That sounds like a dead squad of Terminators no matter how you cut it. In particular when you are running 5 man Termie squads (like most DW Armies).

 

Um...grav guns are extremely dangerous to terminators, but I think it was a shooty centurion squad armed with grav cannons (?) that was shown to wipe a terminator squad in one round of shooting.  That's dangerous, of course, but they're an expensive option available to only one army, and they're not only vulnerable to massed small arms fire and/or plasma, they're dead meat if you assault them.  Regular grav guns are also dangerous, but so is plasma.  I don't see anyone losing his mind over the possibility that an opponent might field plasma.  It's a known danger, and the danger presented by grav weapons is very similar, as should be the response, in spite of the exotic newness of it.  I'd be more afraid of a devastator squad armed with four plasma cannons.  It has more TEQ-busting potential and with six meat shields, it's harder to kill.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I love Mortis Dreads, especially Mortis Contemptors. They regularly get MVP when I use them. If you have one or more then play them every time there is a hard competition game, they will shine like Black Knights but fit into a bone coloured list no problems

@March: you forgot the FAQ again (unless I misread your post)

[march10k]

@Stobz:  Nah, I didn't forget that five terminators only means four fists...but it wasn't particularly relevant to the explanation of why termies belong in assault ;)

[Syphid]

 

 

 

 

Company Master in Terminator Armor? 10 pts cheaper than an Interrogator Chaplain in TDA, has 1 more point of WS and AP3 in melee, and can take a Storm Shield.

Very true.. I'll add it to the list... It's unconventional but fun.

 

I'lll run some numbers tomorrow. It doesn't look like he'll perform as good as either the Lib or IC. How would you run him? What gear? In what unit? How do you think he's more valuable that taking a Lib or IC?

 

Sell me on this.

 

Well, this is my thinking: If you are going to run a model with Mace of Redemption and you're fighting against Chaos Space Marines, then why wouldn't you take WS 6 for ten points cheaper?  You lose Zealot, but because of Inner Circle you're going to be Fearless and re-rolling 1's to hit and wound anyways.  With WS 6 you are increasing the number of units you hit on 3's and reducing the number of units that can hit you on 3's.  Add in the ability to take a storm shield while still being almost even with an Interrogator Chaplain for points, and and I think the Company Master comes out ahead when facing Chaos.  No subtlety or tactics with this HQ, just get him into melee and soak up challenges.

 

Like anything, it depends on your opponent.  I face a lot of CSM so that's usually where my plans come from.

I wish I faced more C:SM...knights are just...WRONG against them, lol...but I'm not willing to say that a master is better just because he can do a similar job for ten points fewer against one army.

 

Certainly not better overall, but shines in some situations.

[march10k]

 

 

I never said the SoS is bad. Ap3 is great, i've even show where it's better than the TH. the problem is it's not clearly better at most it's pretty much equal to the TH.

 

I don't understand your arguement about it's uniqueness. Being unique isn't a factor on why you should take something.

 

 

 

Ah, sorry, I just noticed this, and feel like I have to respond.  It's not the fact that it is unique, it's the factors that make it unique.  As you say, its performance is roughly equal to that of a TH, being slightly ahead in some areas, slightly behind in others...and then there are very rare instances where one or the other is dramatically superior.    But they kill about the same.  Only the SoS does it at I5 and the TH does it at I1.  That, in a nutshell, is why I take the SoS.  If only I could pair it with a storm shield....

[InstantKarma]

I really appreciate the 'back & forth' between Typher and March10k, as I think this is adding to the Tactica by providing us with more perspectives.

I know Typher insisted I leave since I have not finished my conversion from the Greater Good to the Lion but I thought I should let you guys know how much I am enjoying reading your insights.

[Artemid]

I've been really disappointed with the SoS, as my Belial keeps ending up in challenges after the Sergeant eats one round of one, and then he's stuck there the rest of the game because AP3 winds up having absolutely no stopping power. And when you spew him out of a LRC, the two storm bolter shots are barely worth having - I kill almost nothing with my storm bolters, ever.

[SvenONE]

I've been really disappointed with the SoS, as my Belial keeps ending up in challenges after the Sergeant eats one round of one, and then he's stuck there the rest of the game because AP3 winds up having absolutely no stopping power. And when you spew him out of a LRC, the two storm bolter shots are barely worth having - I kill almost nothing with my storm bolters, ever.

 

This is why the debate against SoS is so strong, and I enjoy the one that's happening here.

 

Belial dicussions are synonymous with Deathwing lists there's no doubt about it.  5th edition Belial was a BARGAIN.  6th is highway robbery, especially since our terminators cost more on top of him.  I love Belial and his fluff, I absolutely hate his rules, and stats.  For the most part, he's a bully of horde units, but terrible against any HQ worth their salt. Unless of course you give him a TH/SS, after all it's free.  Sure he can beat up hordes of infantry (if he can get close enough without his squad dying around him), but once he's in combat with any unit worth fighting he's going to die.  If your sergeant is dead by the time you reach an HQ unit, you're going to be challenged, either accept and die, or decline and not be used at all.  

 

Luckily he doesn't cost as much as a Dante, Mephiston, Lysander or Calgar, but they're also bringing a lot more to the table than he is with their cost than he is with his.  As a personal mantra when he's in my lists, he's got the TH/SS, concussive can go a long way, especially if you're in a challenge.  If I were a cheeky player I'd see who my opponent is and say "oh he's got SoS" (horde-y armies) but I don't really see that as a fair tactic.

 

I don't want to poo-poo on people's thoughts on Belial or DW armies because I think that a DW army is probably one of the most fun fluff armies to play and has yielded me some of the most entertaining games, most of which were "fun losses".  But I have a really hard time getting behind the SoS because more often than not, I need to inflict as many wounds as I can with him, in as few rounds as possible -- anyone else with a 2+ (any HQ worth a damn) is just going to shrug them off.

[[TA]Typher]

Sorry guys, I've been gone. Between getting dragged to a wedding and working on my gaming table and terrain with my boys (it's looking good now), i've been unable to update. I'll try to sit down and update some.

 

P.S. Sveone i agree. I often lookout sir my sgt, as he's subpar in cc compared to a fist or like atremid said he dies fast in a challenge leaving Belial to be stuck in one next round. sometimes that's just the way it is. With things like the eternal shield (which we are going to see spammed) neither weapon excells. I recently fought a C:SM player who had a chaptermaster with artificer armor, eternal shield, power axe and the iron hands trait (it will not die). In situations like this we see how subpar belial is. The SM player ate my sgt. And belial spend three rounds slap fighting with him. Luckily i took the TH/SS or belial would have died.

 

P.S. As for march's plasma cannon vs gravaton cannon lethality debate I'd respectfully disagree. If you DWA near the devs with PCs you have the option of running and spreading out instead of shooting. This leads to the possiblity of taking a maximum of 4 hits instead a possible 20. You don't have this option vs a GC, as it's shooting is a salvo and guarunteed to make multiple hits. (Also with Belial you could DS an inch away from the PC's and dare them to shoot. Lol!)

 

Although this isn't a perfect solution as it removes your option to ahoot, thus denying you the cengeance strike bonus. Like in everything 40k there is always a downside.

 

Target priority should be a priority and both of the squads mention should be on your immediate kill list. Would you rather kill the cents first, who have a 5.56 wound average vs terms? Or a ten man tac squad, who have about a 40% to inflict 1 wound? Idealy units like this shoukd shoot only once before they are shown the lion's mercy.

[march10k]

Better yet, roll up on the centurions with a crusader and smack them in the face before they get to shoot at your termies!

 

I understand the argument that SoS, lacking AP2, is going to fail against many overpriced HQs.  But, people, it's ONE MODEL in the enemy army.  I don't know how your games go, but in mine, the warlords end up in an epic duel maybe....one game out of 20?  In my experience, neither side is willing to risk giving up that warlord VP.  Even if I gave Belial TH/SS, if I want to kill the enemy warlord, I'm not giving the enemy warlord a fighting chance by dueling him with Belial, I'm going after him with a squad of thundernators or knights.  And my only thundernators are in Belial's squad...so, yeah, if the warlord is out there in front of the crusader, the squad charges out the front to smack him in the face, while Belial slips out the side to solo a scoring unit or something.  If they're marines, he eats the sergeant before the sergeant gets to swing his fist and then grinds them down, and otherwise, he kills three models, breaks them, and runs them down.

[[TA]Typher]

 

Better yet, roll up on the centurions with a crusader and smack them in the face before they get to shoot at your termies!

 

 

 

"When resolving a hit against a vehicle, roll

a D6 for each hit instead of rolling for penetration

as normal. On a 1-5 nothing happens, but on a 6, the target

suffers an lmmobilised result and loses a single Hull Point.

Grav-weapons have no e!fect on buildings."

 

Or this. 15 shots at 24" range = high chance of immobilization. From the way it's written I wonder if the PFG would work vs this? I know you don't get a save vs the marker lights "on hit" effect. I really think Grav weapons are ill thought out and a little OP.

[Interrogator Stobz]

In my Meta; DW have gone from pretty average in 5th, to having a neat monobuild post FAQ, to overpriced once our new dex dropped, to very overpriced once the nerf FAQ followed up, to finally (currently) redundant in a competetive sense.

Belial now sucks for his cost, mine gets killed by either the enemywarlord or some other elites every game. He can't even stand up to a standard Wolf Lord let alone other named characters. As a non-scoring unit his job is to kill and scare things and face up to death stars, in that role he fails every time I field him. DW armies don't need more bullies, they need something special and apart from our one hit wonders the DWKs we struggle.

[[TA]Typher]

 

In my Meta; DW have gone from pretty average in 5th, to having a neat monobuild post FAQ, to overpriced once our new dex dropped, to very overpriced once the nerf FAQ followed up, to finally (currently) redundant in a competetive sense.

Belial now sucks for his cost, mine gets killed by either the enemywarlord or some other elites every game. He can't even stand up to a standard Wolf Lord let alone other named characters. As a non-scoring unit his job is to kill and scare things and face up to death stars, in that role he fails every time I field him. DW armies don't need more bullies, they need something special and apart from our one hit wonders the DWKs we struggle.

 

 

I don't think he's that bad. Although I would have preferred more synergy with his abilities and wargear. He has a Homer that complements DWA and a non-scatter ability that also complements DWA, but the two don't complement each other as you only get 1 DWA. I would have preferred the ability to buy homers for your vehicles while giving Belial eternal warrior of some other useful trait to make up for the lost gear.

 

His weapons should be more uniform too. Listen, I like being able to customize his load out, but as we've seen none of the options are mind blowing and none stand out. Compared to Lysanders S10 Ap 1 master crafted hammer, Sicauis's powersword with the +2S instant death rule, shrikes LC's with rend and shread, Belial's armory seems lacking. Notice I only named captains weapons here.. not chapter masters.

 

Having a AP2 (or 3) S5 (or 6) sword and a Storm shield with hammer of wrath or a SB like the primarch's wrath would have been awesome and on par with some of the characters we are seeing now.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup,the lack of AP2 is a dealbreaker for me now. Combined with the lack of EW ofc.

[Interrogator Stobz]

busy making a magical model that is designed for 8 plus.it is a bit of a hard task......Edit: stupid woman-thing doing a phantom post

s

[Artemid]

Better yet, roll up on the centurions with a crusader and smack them in the face before they get to shoot at your termies!

 

I understand the argument that SoS, lacking AP2, is going to fail against many overpriced HQs.  But, people, it's ONE MODEL in the enemy army.  I don't know how your games go, but in mine, the warlords end up in an epic duel maybe....one game out of 20?  In my experience, neither side is willing to risk giving up that warlord VP.  Even if I gave Belial TH/SS, if I want to kill the enemy warlord, I'm not giving the enemy warlord a fighting chance by dueling him with Belial, I'm going after him with a squad of thundernators or knights.  And my only thundernators are in Belial's squad...so, yeah, if the warlord is out there in front of the crusader, the squad charges out the front to smack him in the face, while Belial slips out the side to solo a scoring unit or something.  If they're marines, he eats the sergeant before the sergeant gets to swing his fist and then grinds them down, and otherwise, he kills three models, breaks them, and runs them down.

 

Mine constantly gets tangled up. I don't try all that hard to steer him at HQs and stuff, but they certainly take aim at him. It also happens where I'll target something else but not clean up the combat, so both Belial and unit are stuck in and then something else hits them. I blame my rolls.

[march10k]

Better yet, roll up on the centurions with a crusader and smack them in the face before they get to shoot at your termies!

I understand the argument that SoS, lacking AP2, is going to fail against many overpriced HQs. But, people, it's ONE MODEL in the enemy army. I don't know how your games go, but in mine, the warlords end up in an epic duel maybe....one game out of 20? In my experience, neither side is willing to risk giving up that warlord VP. Even if I gave Belial TH/SS, if I want to kill the enemy warlord, I'm not giving the enemy warlord a fighting chance by dueling him with Belial, I'm going after him with a squad of thundernators or knights. And my only thundernators are in Belial's squad...so, yeah, if the warlord is out there in front of the crusader, the squad charges out the front to smack him in the face, while Belial slips out the side to solo a scoring unit or something. If they're marines, he eats the sergeant before the sergeant gets to swing his fist and then grinds them down, and otherwise, he kills three models, breaks them, and runs them down.

Mine constantly gets tangled up. I don't try all that hard to steer him at HQs and stuff, but they certainly take aim at him. It also happens where I'll target something else but not clean up the combat, so both Belial and unit are stuck in and then something else hits them. I blame my rolls.

I can understand that an HQ that's clearly better, like Lysander, would want to hunt him down. But an HQ that's merely "just as good" as him? That'd be foolish, and I haven't seen it. After all, he is running around (in my case) in a crusader with an assault terminator squad, right next to a squad of knights. I wouldn't charge that with my warlord. Most of those warlords don't have a thundernator retinue, and even if they do...can they handle the thundernators, the knights, and Belial all at the same time? It's just too much risk. Charge Belial's squad with a commander who can beat him, and he just refuses the challenge. Now that commander is facing thundernators. Yuck. If the commander has his own nasty melee retinue, he can expect to get countercharged by smiting knights. Yuck. Nope, if Belial is running around with enough melee badasses, the enemy warlord will steer clear because it's a crapshoot. No guarantee of killing Belial and no guarantee of not dying himself. Much better to look for something productive to do elsewhere...

As for Belial and company not cleaning up on the charge, HERESY!!!! That would never happen Well, actually, in my case, it would be tough...the shooting from two crusaders and two vengeance striking tactical terminator squads, plus the availability of the knights to simo-charge if needed make it pretty easy to ensure that Belial's squad doesn't bite off more than it can chew. But, yeah...I've whiffed enough attack rolls and rolled enough ones to wound that I've been left standing there locked with a lone surviving marine. Um, that can happen to anyone, no matter what the build. It can happen to Marneus Calgar, even if he's leading a squad of lightning claw terminators against an IG heavy weapons team. Since you can only manage, not eliminate risk, what "can" happen is never a valid argument. What is statistically likely to happen on a regular basis, now that's worth talking about!

"When resolving a hit against a vehicle, roll

a D6 for each hit instead of rolling for penetration

as normal. On a 1-5 nothing happens, but on a 6, the target

suffers an lmmobilised result and loses a single Hull Point.

Grav-weapons have no e!fect on buildings."

Or this. 15 shots at 24" range = high chance of immobilization. From the way it's written I wonder if the PFG would work vs this? I know you don't get a save vs the marker lights "on hit" effect. I really think Grav weapons are ill thought out and a little OP.

Yep, that sucks...a lot. I'm so glad that only one army gets grav weapons. I think Until/unless an FAQ comes out to say otherwise, the PFG works. The reason is that the markerlight is just illuminating a target...you can't get a save against that! Getting a save against a weapon that's actually causing damage to you is a no-brainer. Otherwise, the grav weapon rules would have to say that they don't allow invulnerable saves.

The good news is that the grav cannon only has 24" range, so there's little or no chance of using it against my crusader on the top of turn one. If the centurions do pull it off (if they get the chance, it's ten hits, half of them blocked, for five chances to roll that six...scary, but not automatic), the other one is still free to move 18". Now there's no chance of them running away from the unit inside even if they disable the second tank on turn two. If they don't get to shoot till turn two because of the short range of their weapons...so much the better. They're almost, but not quite, in the category of "has lots of melta, stay away if you can." But they're actually in the "eats termies in shooting. Assault immediately" category instead. They do make me consider running a bike techmarine with PFG instead of a bike librarian...those "immobilized" results can be a real PITA!

/Edit/ Going back to the Belial equipment thing (yes, feel free to groan), I neglected to mention a scenario before that's fairly common. Say that Belial and squad assault or are assaulted by a squad of marines (no enemy HQ present) whose sergeant has a powerfist. Now, you obviously don't want to face him with your own sergeant, he's not at all guaranteed a kill, needing 4s to hit and then 4s to wound (44% chance to kill). If he fails, your opponent gets 4s to hit, 2s to wound, and you only have a 5++ save. That's pretty risky, so of course you face the enemy sergeant with Belial. Now, if Belial has a TH/SS, he goes simultaneously with the enemy sergeant. Without awarding either side the charge bonus (it probably doesn't matter to Belial, but if the enemy powerfist gets a bonus attack, ouch!!!), the enemy has a 75% chance of scoring at least one hit, that then wounds on 2+, meaning Belial has a 21% chance of failing at least one save against a generic sergeant with a powerfist, probably the most common feature of every C:UM list...and he doesn't have eternal warrior! No freaking way I'm letting a TH/SS Belial take a challenge like that! On the other hand, the SoS Belial has three base attacks that hit on 3s and wound on 2s. That's a 1/27 chance of scoring zero hits, plus a much smaller chance of 1, 2, or 3 hits, but no wounds, for a total chance of a whiff under 5%. So a TH/SS Belial dies to a sergeant with a fist 21% of the time, whether he kills the sergeant or not. But a SoS Belial kills that sergeant at I5 95% of the time, and if he fails, the sergeant still only has a 31% chance of killing Belial. The TH/SS Belial has a 21% chance of dying in a challenge with a powerfisting sergeant, versus a 3% chance for a SoS Belial, and powerfisting sergeants are a standard item in nearly every power-armored squad in the game, so this could come up 3-4 times per game (although, granted, if four different enemy sergeants wind up in duels with Belial in the same game, you're doing something right!)

[InstantKarma]

My understanding has been that you get a Cover Save from Grav weps, so I cannot imagine you wouldn't get a ++ save vs. them.  I know some people have tried to argue that the wording of Grav weps would prevent any save, but that doesn't strike me as how the description of the rule is intended.  I think the claim has been that since there isn't a 'true roll' to glance or pen with the weapon you therefore cannot take a save but again, I think this is some silly literalism being taken too far.

[shabbadoo]

Yes, but people will somehow think that it is perfectly reasonable that such an "UBER WEAPON" would be able to be taken in relatively large numbers in an army. :P

 

This last weekend I took Belial with the SoS and SB.  This weapon combination is rather good for a few reasons:

 

* The 5+ precision shots (took out a Chaos Icon (of Excess) Bearer prior to an assault, which really screwed over the enemy, seeing as four models in Belial's unit had non-Instant Death weapons).

* Fleshbane and AP 3 (he carved his way through 8 Chaos Marines, an Aspiring Champion, and a Sorcerer).

* Belial went after power-armed targets as it is rather easy to do so because he and his unit teleport without scattering.

* Do you really need Belial to be armed with a TH/SS when you have plenty of other models in your force armed with STRx2/AP2 weapons, these other units also Deepstrike in when Belial does, and so can easily put themselves in a position to block off and crush anything which might be optimized to threaten Belial?  No, you really don't.

 

Splitfire + Vengeance Strike, in tandem, are rather brutally effective.  Blew off a Hellbrute's powerfist arm, a Battlewagon's Killkannon, and took out two Chaos Vindicators in the opening salvo alone.  Turn 2, another Vindicator went down to Split-fire shooting.  Super useful ability.  

[SvenONE]

Yes, but people will somehow think that it is perfectly reasonable that such an "UBER WEAPON" would be able to be taken in relatively large numbers in an army.

This last weekend I took Belial with the SoS and SB. This weapon combination is rather good for a few reasons:

* The 5+ precision shots (took out a Chaos Icon (of Excess) Bearer prior to an assault, which really screwed over the enemy, seeing as four models in Belial's unit had non-Instant Death weapons).

* Fleshbane and AP 3 (he carved his way through 8 Chaos Marines, an Aspiring Champion, and a Sorcerer).

* Belial went after power-armed targets as it is rather easy to do so because he and his unit teleport without scattering.

* Do you really need Belial to be armed with a TH/SS when you have plenty of other models in your force armed with STRx2/AP2 weapons, these other units also Deepstrike in when Belial does, and so can easily put themselves in a position to block off and crush anything which might be optimized to threaten Belial? No, you really don't.

Splitfire + Vengeance Strike, in tandem, are rather brutally effective. Blew off a Hellbrute's powerfist arm, a Battlewagon's Killkannon, and took out two Chaos Vindicators in the opening salvo alone. Turn 2, another Vindicator went down to Split-fire shooting. Super useful ability.

I'm glad you got precision shot to work for you, but in most cases I'd say it's a nice bonus, hardly something that can be relied upon.

You certainly don't need him to be armed with TH/SS, but it helps. All of the things you described were things that I had pointed out earlier -- that he's an almost 200 point bully against normal troops, something that terminators already are. The thing is, tacticalyl you need him to be dropped away from any CQC leader, to which there are a lot of decent ones in the game.

Any capable player with a strong HQ unit, is going to walk over and challenge you, in some cases you may still have your sergeant alive if he hasn't died yet -- but he will in a round of combat or so. You'll be forced to accept and in all likelihood give up a warlord point, of course if you refuse, Belial will be the model chosen not to fight, thus negating all that SoS swinging you were hoping to do. That TH/SS keeps him relevant while also potentially dropping the opposing warlord to I1 in the challenge on even ground.

Again, the choice of weaponry of Belial is really how you plan on using him, and what your opponent has as an HQ. You have to avoid challenges at all costs.

[Artemid]

The other thing is that what is optimal for Knights yo charge is probably not optimal for Belial to, so they both risk getting stuck in; even twin linked, storm bolted shooting is piddling, and the hurricane bolters on the LRCs barely kill anything too l. I do play against some flavor of Marines mostly, mind.

[[TA]Typher]

 

* The 5+ precision shots (took out a Chaos Icon (of Excess) Bearer prior to an assault, which really screwed over the enemy, seeing as four models in Belial's unit had non-Instant Death weapons).

Lets look at the odds of that.

 

Attacker Group 1

Shots: 2

Hit Chance: 33.33%

Hits: 0.667

Wound Chance: 50%

Wounds: 0.333

Saved Wounds: 0.222

Feel No Pain Saves: 0.056

Unsaved Wounds: 0.056

Models Killed: 0.056

Options: Hit On 5

 

-----------------------------

 

Defenders

 

Defender Group

Hits: 0.667

Wounds: 0.333

Saves: 0.222

FNP Saves: 0.056

Wounds Lost: 0.056

Models Lost: 0.056 / 1 (5.6%)

Options: Fnp

 

You made a 6% chance to not only target that 1 guy, but to defeat his armor and his FNP roll. Not bad, but in all reality you were extremely lucky.

 

 

 

 

* Fleshbane and AP 3 (he carved his way through 8 Chaos Marines, an Aspiring Champion, and a Sorcerer).

 

What was the average for the SoS vs Meq, like 1.6 wounds? It's not bad, but hardly on the level of other named characters. I fact it's on par with the TH/SS in killyness vs MEQs, with only a 8% difference in that chance of the enemy killing a term at I4 (from 41% to 33%). Now compare that to addition survivability, Tanking AP2 shots for your units and the ability to have a better shot vs a lot of HQ's in the game by doubling them out, I'd say it's easily on par with the SoS.

 

As for the sorcerer I'd say you were lucky again.

 

 

 

Belial Vs a Chaos Sorcerer with a 5+ Invuln

 

SoS

Attacks: 4

Hit Chance: 66.67%

Hits: 2.667

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.222

Saved Wounds: 0.741

Unsaved Wounds: 1.481

Models Killed: 0.741

Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2

 

T. Hammer

Attacks: 4

Hit Chance: 66.67%

Hits: 2.667

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.222

Saved Wounds: 0.741

Unsaved Wounds: 1.481

Models Killed: 1.481

Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill

 

 

Belial Vs a Chaos Sorcerer with a 4+ Invuln

 

SoS

Attacks: 4

Hit Chance: 66.67%

Hits: 2.667

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.222

Saved Wounds: 1.111

Unsaved Wounds: 1.111

Models Killed: 0.556

Options: Ignore Armour, Wound On 2

 

T. Hammer

Attacks: 4

Hit Chance: 66.67%

Hits: 2.667

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.222

Saved Wounds: 1.111

Unsaved Wounds: 1.111

Models Killed: 1.111

Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill

 

As you can see even on the charge are still only averaging 1 wound. Not even enough to guarantee the kill. Now let's see his attacks back. It's also important to note that a TH would have doubled him out leaving Belial (if he survives the force weapon) free to crush normal troops instead of lingering in a duel.

 

 

Sorcerer Force Axe Vs Belial

 

Force Axe

Attacks: 3

Hit Chance: 50%

Hits: 1.5

Wound Chance: 66.67%

Wounds: 1

Saved Wounds: 0.5

Unsaved Wounds: 0.5

Models Killed: 0.167

Options: Ignore Armour

 

Armed with a force axe (a must if you are fighting terms.) you can see that the he has a 50% chance to cause a wound. This number drops lower if he was foolish enough to bring another type of Force weapon. This is just with the three attacks that he should have for having a two CCW weapons (Melee and Pistol). If he charges you this number goes up to about 66%. Remember that the force weapon can insta-kill Belial and only have a 8% chance of failing. You could expand this 'what-if' scenario by giving the Scorcerer marks of chaos or Term armor, each bringing up his lethality, while still keeping him cheaper than Belial.

 

P.S. If you are interested a TH/SS would decrease that chance to wound down to 33%.

 

 

 

 

 

* Belial went after power-armed targets as it is rather easy to do so because he and his unit teleport without scattering.

* Do you really need Belial to be armed with a TH/SS when you have plenty of other models in your force armed with STRx2/AP2 weapons, these other units also Deepstrike in when Belial does, and so can easily put themselves in a position to block off and crush anything which might be optimized to threaten Belial? No, you really don't.

;

* Yup? Are you saying that you didn't place him in a unit or that his unit ONLY went after those enemies? Either way a TH/SS can do that same thing while remaining flexible enough to go after harder targets, (HQs, Vehicles, Monstrous creatures).

 

* No, we don't need him armed with a TH/SS.. or for that matter we don't need him armed with the SoS/SB, hell we don't need him in the army, as Azrael can let us have a DW list. I, and some others, take the TH/SS because it fits our play stuff and it's effective at keeping our sub-par Master alive and dishes out just as much damage as the SoS (more in some areas).

 

 

 

 

I'd like to point out that just because I usually don't take it doesn't mean it's bad choice. It's not. Preference and play style have a lot to contribute and at the end of the day Neither option is bad. I'd even go as far as saying that neither option is better, but I won't discount the TH/SS just because normal terms have the same weapons or because it works well vs non-threatening HQs. I think a case could be made for even LC's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you got precision shot to work for you, but in most cases I'd say it's a nice bonus, hardly something that can be relied upon.

;

You certainly don't need him to be armed with TH/SS, but it helps. All of the things you described were things that I had pointed out earlier -- that he's an almost 200 point bully against normal troops, something that terminators already are. ;The thing is, tactically you need him to be dropped away from any CQC leader, to which there are a lot of decent ones in the game.

;

Any capable player with a strong HQ unit, is going to walk over and challenge you, in some cases you may still have your sergeant alive if he hasn't died yet -- but he will in a round of combat or so.  You'll be forced to accept and in all likelihood give up a warlord point, of course if you refuse, Belial will be the model chosen not to fight, thus negating all that SoS swinging you were hoping to do.  That TH/SS keeps him relevant while also potentially dropping the opposing warlord to I1 in the challenge on even ground.

 

Again, the choice of weaponry of Belial is really how you plan on using him, and what your opponent has as an HQ. You have to avoid challenges at all costs.

;

 

^ This. I suppose I could have saved time by just posting yours :p

[Dafoo]

You can always snap fire with your linked bolters and wreck face with a multi melta and assault cannon. Unless of course there was an update I missed somewhere. I think pfist sargeant smashing is a good point for the SoS; super shooty marine armies fighting for every last point are the only PArmor lists I see without PFists. Which is usually a greenwing DA army with dakkabanner. Which if you are facing that enjoy a friendly game with your non inner circle battle brothers. I think the best thing I ever killed with precision shot was the AP 2 bloodletter thing from daemons. Helped save a termy or two afterwards.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I think this thread is starting to be monopolized by a SoS vs TH debate.. and there's so much more stuff going for DW than those two pieces of equipment.  Agree to disagree, accept that each has its pros and cons and move on to make this tactica a more complete guide. For the life of me throughout B&C DA forum long history of Tacticas this tactica thread is being the most nitpicky of them all.