Deathwing: Tactica

[march10k]

  You have to avoid challenges at all costs.

Point of order.  You have to avoid challenges with enemy models that have a 2+ save AND an AP2 weapon.  That may include a lot of MEQ warlords, but it's a small minority of characters.  TH/SS is a perfectly viable build, but I will not stand by and allow the false narrative that having an AP3 weapon makes Belial auto-die in every challenge situation that comes along. 

 

In point of fact, when the enemy character lacks 2+ armor, which covers more than 97% of the characters in the game, the sword is at least as good.  When the enemy has an AP2 weapon, but no 2+ save, which is 95% of all models with AP2 weapons, the sword is dramatically superior.

 

I agree with Luci, though. This has (in large part my fault) degenerated from a tactica into a "which Belial is better" argument.  Let's agree that both versions are viable, and that neither version makes Belial as good as close-combat-oriented warlords from other armies, and move on.

[SvenONE]

To be fair, I am a minority DA player in my shop.  I regularly play against C:SM (Daemon Princes, Khârn, Typhus), Necrons (Destroyer Lords/Overlords/Obyron), Blood Angels (Mephiston/Dante-Sanguinary Guard) and Tau, GK -- but those last two aren't as much of a problem.  So you can see a little where I'm coming from when I'm framing my argument -- it is a bit biased as there are plenty of other models out there like you said -- I just happen to see the ones that cause the most problems for B-Nasty.  Again, I don't slam the SoS, and I don't fully back the TH/SS, I just see it as a slight edge in MOST of the situations I find myself in.  But enough about that, I think we both have equal points, and at the end of the day unless you know the army you are playing you are always going to be gambling a little with Belial's wargear.

 

That said!  Circling back to Lucifer's point about that discussion, I think the thread has so far been pretty detailed in list building and unit uses rather than actual tactics leaving the TH/SS vs SoS argument the last thing to be discussed in that realm.

 

Bringing it further to the discussion of tactics, I see that Typher is still in the process of developing the other sections (I think he's got his work cut out for him!), which I think are truly the most important: Deployment and Alpha Strike, personally I think DW fall in the middle of the pack when it comes to an Alpha strike, I think the real key to a DW army is the deployment.  So I'll turn the discussion that way.

 

I'm of the camp that will DWA on my first turn, opt to deploy second and depending on what I see out there seize if I feel it's advantageous.  I don't run a full DW list, I usually have a lascannon dev squad (again this is at 1800+).  Also, I've had mixed luck trying to deep strike on Belial's teleport homer, with a list this small I can't afford to miss a reserves roll.  I usually keep the max units in reserves and just bring them all right down, if you can seize this isn't a bad deal because at least you have a few more models on the table for your opponent's first shooting phase.  It's tough missing out on vengeful strike, so I usually will start my librarian in that squad to get the prescience.  Where I actually deploy my units is usually always farthest away from whatever AP2 can hit me, there isn't a whole lot to it in my eyes.  My reserves will almost always deep strike closest to the weakest units to reduce their numbers and hopefully avoid the "death by 1000 papercuts" that can happen with terminators.

[march10k]

I do love me a lascannon dev squad...I think I was the only one on the face of the planet who ran one in 4th and 5th editions. 

 

I would like to disagree with the first turn DWA, but I suppose that it depends on the task that you give your DWA element.  If they're supposed to be a matador's cape that keeps the enemy occupied in his end of the board (makes sense in a dakkapole army with DWA support), then first turn is the way to go. 

 

If, however, the DWA is your main effort and you want them to survive and accomplish more than distraction, then you want to give the enemy ample opportunity to spread out before you drop in.  That way, he is less likely to be able to adequately support the portion of his army that you intend to sodomize, AND he misses an additional turn of trying to torrent your 2+ save into the ground.

[Artemid]

March, what does your spearhead list look like these days, at 1850/2k? I assume it's gone through some additional refinement.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

My humble opinion about DWA:

Always go second turn. Why?

Keeps opponent worried and if he's castled up you can wait for an opening or you have one turn to crack his defense before committing the termies. That's just what works for me.

[march10k]

Nope, no changes since the one prompted by the PFG nerf.  It's so freaking lean (1700 points before any terminator or vehicle upgrades) that there's not really any room to tweak much.  The chainfists on the DWA squads rarely do anything, and the perfidious relic is kind of wasted, but that's 20 points...what are you gonna do with that in a DW list? 

[InstantKarma]

I've read some of Typher's Bat Reps and I think he makes a good case to making the decision on a game by game basis.  I believe in the one against Eldar he DWAs first turn to corall the Eldar and keep them pinned so they didn't start racing all over the board and easily out-pace him.

As far as going 2nd and DWA on turn 2, I think march10k has outline his Mech DW list and how wel DWA on turn 2 works for this set up.

So it seems at a cursoury reading, we have some good points depending on our own army composition and what our oppponent is looking to do.

[SvenONE]

I don't run the two landraiders list since I only have 1 (a second requires me to get a different bag to move everyone to and from battle!) and it's usually supporting my GW lists. But it's something I'm going to be trying once I figure out my LRC transporting situation hahah.

 

My DW list is a plasma party of 3x10 man 2x PC squads and the lascannons (infravisor libby). 2 (with belial) DWA while the devs and the other squad are deployed in a decent position to get a good shot on any AV, my terminator squad is usually close enough that I can get a prescience on them for their first movement turn (simulated VS).

 

I think when you have the LRCs, they act as great targets and distractions, so the DWA on turn 2 works. My list just isn't as durable on the first turn. I also drop the squads somewhere between my deployed units and the enemy, but on the weaker side and possibly close to an objective. If it's relic just deep strike right on that guy and force them to get within range of everything. So for a list like mine, it's usually more important to start creating multiple targets for my enemy rather than forcing their hand to either pop my devs or my deployed term squad.

[Artemid]

Nope, no changes since the one prompted by the PFG nerf.  It's so freaking lean (1700 points before any terminator or vehicle upgrades) that there's not really any room to tweak much.  The chainfists on the DWA squads rarely do anything, and the perfidious relic is kind of wasted, but that's 20 points...what are you gonna do with that in a DW list? 

 

What do you add when you take it up to 2k, just an extra body or two? And was Belial's squad all TH/SS or still a LC/THSS mix? I've gotten mixed experience with those.

[[TA]Typher]

My humble opinion about DWA:

Always go second turn. Why?

Keeps opponent worried and if he's castled up you can wait for an opening or you have one turn to crack his defense before committing the termies. That's just what works for me.

 

 

I've read some of Typher's Bat Reps and I think he makes a good case to making the decision on a game by game basis.  I believe in the one against Eldar he DWAs first turn to coral the Eldar and keep them pinned so they didn't start racing all over the board and easily out-pace him.

 

As far as going 2nd and DWA on turn 2, I think march10k has outline his Mech DW list and how wel DWA on turn 2 works for this set up.

 

So it seems at a cursory reading, we have some good points depending on our own army composition and what our opponent is looking to do.

I love it when one person answers for me.. saves so much time :)

 

I would add that I think that which turn to DWA based on your list and opponent.

 

For example in my 1 LR (I only have 1) list I have the option of turn 1 or 2 depending on my opponent and if I have first or second turn. This can be important as InstantKarma pointed out it is sometimes beneficial to DWA on turn 1.

 

Lists like March's is more of a mobile castle. While he can DWA on first turn he loses the benefit of Belial's homer (and Non-scatter) by doing so. So he is forced into DWA always on turn 2 if he wants the benefit of Belial.

 

Each method has positive and negative aspects. DWA on turn 1 obviously exposes you to another turn of fire, which we know is bad. If can be useful to deliver a crippling blow. Shooting bikes before they move with a heavy flamer (rerolling wounds) can really pay off or as in my batrep it can be used to limit movement of fast armies.

 

DWA on turn two runs the risk that something can go wrong. Drop pod vets metlaing your LR, while the the other half of the combat squad fires plasma into your terms or armies like Eldar or Dark Eldar spreading out and playing keep away from you while they shoot you to pieces. On the other side it limits fire your scoring units are exposed too.

 

Neither way is wrong and is dependent on your list. I'd love to hear what works for other and what doesn't work.

 

I need to sit down and flesh out some more of the tactica. I love the discussions going on here as it gives me more info. Keep it up guys.

[Interrogator Stobz]

The thing about tactics is that you can't really have them in a vacuum, you can have a basic plan of action but unless you factor in the opponent and his list you are merely speculating.

What I am suggesting Mr Typher sir is that you add a "vs. standard enemy" to subparts of this thread to help with actual situational tactics

[Disruptor_fe404]

If, however, the DWA is your main effort and you want them to survive and accomplish more than distraction, then you want to give the enemy ample opportunity to spread out before you drop in. That way, he is less likely to be able to adequately support the portion of his army that you intend to sodomize, AND he misses an additional turn of trying to torrent your 2+ save into the ground.

My humble opinion about DWA:

Always go second turn. Why?

Keeps opponent worried and if he's castled up you can wait for an opening or you have one turn to crack his defense before committing the termies. That's just what works for me.

I actually agree with you guys, but I rarely do it second turn because:

The thing about tactics is that you can't really have them in a vacuum, you can have a basic plan of action but unless you factor in the opponent and his list you are merely speculating.

My most regular opponents are 'Nids (double dakka flyrant) and Chaos (winged Daemon Prince). Sadly, this means I want my twin-linked deep strikers to get good shots at the FMCs before they can swoop.

Against Tau though (my next most regular opponent), yeah, I'm dropping them second turn, after his Riptide has commited.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Mine common ones are: BA/SW allies (variations around: Wolf Lord, BA Libby, Corbulo, BA Termies, 2x10Grey Hunters in Rhinos,2x BA/MG jumpers in Stormchickens, Podding Furioso Dread with Frag cannon, Hvy Flamer and Magnagrapple), Tau(Mixture, commonly Riptides and DSing suits with Ion cannon vehicles in support), BT(2x LRC Helbrecht and friends), CSM (Mixture)

[[TA]Typher]

 

The thing about tactics is that you can't really have them in a vacuum, you can have a basic plan of action but unless you factor in the opponent and his list you are merely speculating.

What I am suggesting Mr Typher sir is that you add a "vs. standard enemy" to subparts of this thread to help with actual situational tactics

Not a bad idea. I've put up survivability rates

 

 

I'm far from a pro guys. I just know what works for me. Ideally I'd like to have a basic information section for different armies. Nothing too in depth, just basic tactics. I mainly play against Orks, SM, CSM and Tau. I do well against most of them except for Tau... which I do horribly. Most of the Tau players at my local store are power gamers and run tough lists.

 

If any of you are interested in adding a section or article to the tactica send me a message and I'll copy and paste it for you.

[march10k]

Hmmm...If I can find the time, I'll put together a paragraph or two about a mechanized Deathwing counter to riptides.

[[TA]Typher]

It's not the riptides that get me it's the million S5 BS5 (markerlights) shots that they get. The volume of fire is crazy.

 

Lol

Last tau game Longstrike blew up my landraider on turn 1. I even had a 4+ cover save. I know it's a low chance to do that but it's just my luck.

[march10k]

Ah, I would have expected the problem to be the AP2 pieplate from the riptide.  The 5446906 S5 shots can be a pain, but only if you allow them LOS.  That's definitely one of the better features of the land raider: it's great for LOS-management, letting you ensure that the only tau who can see you are the ones you are shooting at.  The other 60 fire warriors can wait their turn while you focus fire on the first 12, lol.  Actually, one of my favorite counters to their "overwatch from neighboring units" cheese is to shoot the #$%^^ out of the second unit in from the flank, then charge the flank unit...whoops, there goes all that supporting fire you were counting on!

[[TA]Typher]

Re:updated. Added More HQ's, Updated DWKS adding more stats and ideas, Updated DWC squads, Added Minor fluff, Fleshed out other minor areas and added better indexing and fact boxes

[Interrogator Stobz]

FYI; Mortis Contemptors are now BS4, Stupid and unnessessary nerf in the latest IA Apoc. Also, loose is the opposite of tight and to lose is to not win ;) Nice Compilation, what are peoples thoughts on the DW Champions Halberd?

[[TA]Typher]

 

FYI; Mortis Contemptors are now BS4, Stupid and unnessessary nerf in the latest IA Apoc. Also, loose is the opposite of tight and to lose is to not win ;) Nice Compilation, what are peoples thoughts on the DW Champions Halberd?

 

I'll correct the Mortis issue..

 

as for the Halberd I like it. It really hasn't payed for itself for me but I like the model and the potential it has. +2S AP2 at initiative is great. Of course he still only has a 5+ invuln which can suck if you roll badly vs a enemy that has a AP2 attack. I seldom place a HQ with this unit so he's not as useful for me, but I painted up the most and still run him however.

 

I know I don't have anything written on on DW Champs.. You can always do one for me :)

 

Also, loose is the opposite of tight and to lose is to not win

Did you find a typo? I'll fix it (If I find it). LOL. There should be a barrel full of them.

 

P.S. do you like the new format better or worse?

[Interrogator Stobz]

I was thinking the same thing about the Champ, no character = no challenge to worry about. I was just wondering if peeps had any decent use out of him.

There are a few type-o's in the tactic a section, but I'm not a word nazi, just trying to make your work easier to read :D It's ironic hat my tablet keeps screwing up my format and autocorrects words incorrectly :P. Your new layout is great, easy to find stuff etc.

Carry on Sir :tu:

[Pbenner]

Your Banner of Fortitude listing is bust.  It's 12" not 24" (would be stupid at 24").

 

I run a foot-slogging Deathwing at 1850, and it has worked for me;  roughly

 

Belial

Command Squad (Banner+TH//SS, Champ, Apothecary, LC, and SB//CF) - Dropping Apothecary soon due to it being redundant.

5x DW Terminator Squads (Mix of TH//SS and LCs, with a CML)

 

Things to note;

 

Use the mandatory Stormbolter on the Sarge to paint your charge target and never forget about Split Fire.  Put the missiles where needed and still paint a charge target.  This is the shiz.

 

I deploy my Command Squad with Belial as close to the front lines as possible in cover with another unit inside support range, deepstriking the other 4 units in directly around Belial to take advantage of the Twin Linked missiles, helping both missiles to hit can be a wonderful way to assure First Blood.

 

Deathwing need to stay close to support each other.  Even if your opponent is split up, stick tight and hammer through his units.  

 

 

In general for Deathwing;

 

It's very easy to be tabled if you're not careful.  Sill low body count hurts bad.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Paul

[[TA]Typher]

Your Banner of Fortitude listing is bust. It's 12" not 24" (would be stupid at 24").

 

I run a foot-slogging Deathwing at 1850, and it has worked for me; roughly

 

Belial

Command Squad (Banner+TH//SS, Champ, Apothecary, LC, and SB//CF) - Dropping Apothecary soon due to it being redundant.

5x DW Terminator Squads (Mix of TH//SS and LCs, with a CML)

 

Things to note;

 

Use the mandatory Stormbolter on the Sarge to paint your charge target and never forget about Split Fire. Put the missiles where needed and still paint a charge target. This is the shiz.

 

I deploy my Command Squad with Belial as close to the front lines as possible in cover with another unit inside support range, deepstriking the other 4 units in directly around Belial to take advantage of the Twin Linked missiles, helping both missiles to hit can be a wonderful way to assure First Blood.

 

Deathwing need to stay close to support each other. Even if your opponent is split up, stick tight and hammer through his units.

 

 

In general for Deathwing;

 

It's very easy to be tabled if you're not careful. Sill low body count hurts bad.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Paul

The bubble is from side to side, with the banner in the very center of the bubble, thus it's 12" on each side of him, which makes a 24" FNP bubble.

 

12"<...........banner..........>12" get it?

 

It's late and I feel like I'm not making sense.. Lol.

 

 

 

P.S. you should write up a footslogging list and how you use them. I'll add it to the list making section.

[Pbenner]

My only argument is that with most people I speak with bubbles are defined using radius and not diameter. I can try to throw something together soon in regards to slogging deathwing.

 

Paul

[[TA]Typher]

 

My only argument is that with most people I speak with bubbles are defined using radius and not diameter. I can try to throw something together soon in regards to slogging deathwing.

 

Paul

 

That would be awesome man! I'll try to make that more clear in the Tactica when I add the Champion. I love the input, thanks!