Deathwing: Tactica

[Paulochromis]

Any chance you could wrap the mathhammer in spoiler tags, so they don't consume as much screen real estate by default?

Enjoying the tactica so far.

[[TA]Typher]

Yup. that's a great Idea!

[shabbadoo]

Is it my imagination, or did some posts on fighting Tau and other things disappear from this thread?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

There as been problems with B/C database and some content may have been lost.

[[TA]Typher]

Is it my imagination, or did some posts on fighting Tau and other things disappear from this thread?

 

No I was editing it. I added spoiler tags, but they seem to hate my Noscript firefox addon. I turned it off and cause a whole other set of problems for myself.

 

lol... didn't mean to freak anyone out. Sorry.

[olcottr]

For a foot-slogging version, what about a Librarian w/ a Power Field Generator leading a 10-Deathwing group w/ CMLs? You can have a box-formation with 2 inch separation between models, with Librarian in middle of 8 Termies. The 2 CMLs, with their TH/SS, will be outside the bubble. A Plasma Cannon can only hit 1 model with no scatter, and only up to two with a very lucky scatter.

[Pbenner]

The models inside 3" of him get the 4++ but the rest are 5++ stillm. For the same wargear expense the whole squad gets 3++.

 

Paul

[[TA]Typher]

Split fire only lets you shoot one weapon at a different target. Having two CMLs in the same unit limits one of them to shoot at the same target the storm bolters do. As the only real ranged anti-vehicle weapon our troops have this isn't the best option.

 

At most you'd take one CML and one other heavy weapon that compliments the storm bolters.

 

As for the PFG.. remember terms are better in close combat than shooting. The PFG gives a 4+ invuln save to EVERYONE within 3" (this includes the enemy). your power fists is AP2, so most things won't get a save against them... but the PFG would give them one. You can of course detach the Lib before they charge, but then he's likely to get singled out and shot to pieces.

 

I'm sure there is a good strategy in there, but without more information I don't see it.

[shabbadoo]

Split fire only lets you shoot one weapon at a different target. Having two CMLs in the same unit limits one of them to shoot at the same target the storm bolters do. As the only real ranged anti-vehicle weapon our troops have this isn't the best option.

 

At most you'd take one CML and one other heavy weapon that compliments the storm bolters.

The CML compliments stormbolters in the way of using frag missiles.  Otherwise, if a unit could have two CMLs, and have the rest of the unit were armed with TLCs and/or TH+SS, then two CMLs would be useful in a variety of situations.  There could be two separate enemy hard targets that you really need to put two krak missiles on each, or two separate soft enemy targets that you wouldn't mind putting two frag missiles on each.  And you can always double up your shots on more threatening single targets with either missile type.  Four frag missiles in particular can be devastating to a bunched up horde unit.  The CML is very versatile.

[march10k]

The CML compliments stormbolters in the way of using frag missiles.  Otherwise, if a unit could have two CMLs, and have the rest of the unit were armed with TLCs and/or TH+SS, then two CMLs would be useful in a variety of situations.  There could be two separate enemy hard targets that you really need to put two krak missiles on each, or two separate soft enemy targets that you wouldn't mind putting two frag missiles on each.  And you can always double up your shots on more threatening single targets with either missile type.  Four frag missiles in particular can be devastating to a bunched up horde unit.  The CML is very versatile.

All of that is true...but the CML isn't always better than an assault cannon as a complement to the stormbolters.  If you're searching around for five points, drop the non-split-fire CML to an assault cannon, and you'll never notice a drop in performance.

[shabbadoo]

Sure.  In pure Deathwing armies, being able to +/- 5 points here and there makes for more wiggle room in list building.  The lower cost of Dreadnoughts (including Venerable Dreadnoughts) also helps in this.  But I have always like Dreadnoughts, though I know that they are not universally popular.

[march10k]

Actually, the most successful list I ever ran featured three dreddies...two vennies and a hellfire, plus naught else but bikes and termies.  Back in 4th edition.  The list went 27-2-3 before I retired it, losing to dual-buried-fist LATD and dual lash (the first time I faced dual lash...the second time, I beat it)  The second best game for the dreads was against necrons.  Venerable dreadnoughts versus "I can glance you all day long, but I'll never get a pen" shooting was hilarious in that edition.  My opponent seemed to think that spamming glances would bring the dreddies down, which kept my bikes and termies alive long enough to win that game.  The best game was against a harlie circus...massed kisses detonated all three dreddies, of course...but the ensuing explosions killed off the harlies, muahahahaha.  I think that was also the game where Edlrad took a thunderhammer to the temple and the bikes ran over the fire dragons before they could molest the termies.  Great victory!

[[TA]Typher]

Term Heavy Weapons VS Infantry

 

Vs MEQ (T4, 3+Save)

 

 

 

CML

Shots: 2

Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%

1" Scatter: 7.41%

2" Scatter: 9.26%

3" Scatter: 11.11%

4-6" Scatter: 22.22%

7"+ Scatter: 5.56%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 50%

Wounds: 3

Saved Wounds: 2

Unsaved Wounds: 1

Models Killed: 1

Options: Auto Hit, Blast Hits 3

 

ASS CANNON

Shots: 4

Hit Chance: 88.89%

Hits: 3.556

Wound Chance: 66.67%

Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%

Wounds: 2.37

Rend Wounds: 0.593

Saved Wounds: 1.58

Unsaved Wounds: 0.79

Unsaved Rending Wounds: 0.593

Models Killed: 1.383

Options: Reroll Hit, Rending

 

PLASMA

Shots: 1

Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%

1" Scatter: 7.41%

2" Scatter: 9.26%

3" Scatter: 11.11%

4-6" Scatter: 22.22%

7"+ Scatter: 5.56%

Hits: 2.5

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.083

Unsaved Wounds: 2.083

Models Killed: 2.083

Gets Hot Chance: 16.67

Gets Hot Hits: 0.5

Gets Hot Wounds Lost: 0.167

Options: Ignore Armour, Hit On 2, Blast Hits 3, Gets Hot, Gets Hot Save 3

 

H. FLAMER

Shots: 1

Hit Chance: 100%

Hits: 5

Wound Chance: 66.67%

Wounds: 3.333

Saved Wounds: 2.222

Unsaved Wounds: 1.111

Models Killed: 1.111

Options: Ignore Cover, Auto Hit, Template Hits 5

 

Against MEQS you can see that the 25pt CML is suppar to the Plasma Cannon 2 kills and only ties the others with 1 wounds inflicted.

 

 

 

VS T3, 4+ Save (Tau, Eldar)

 

 

 

CML

Shots: 2

Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%

1" Scatter: 7.41%

2" Scatter: 9.26%

3" Scatter: 11.11%

4-6" Scatter: 22.22%

7"+ Scatter: 5.56%

Hits: 6

Wound Chance: 66.67%

Wounds: 4

Saved Wounds: 2

Unsaved Wounds: 2

Models Killed: 2

Options: Auto Hit, Blast Hits 3

 

ASS CANNON

Shots: 4

Hit Chance: 88.89%

Hits: 3.556

Wound Chance: 66.67%

Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%

Wounds: 2.37

Rend Wounds: 0.593

Unsaved Wounds: 2.37

Unsaved Rending Wounds: 0.593

Models Killed: 2.963

Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour, Rending, Instakill

 

PLASMA

Shots: 1

Direct Hit Chance: 44.44%

1" Scatter: 7.41%

2" Scatter: 9.26%

3" Scatter: 11.11%

4-6" Scatter: 22.22%

7"+ Scatter: 5.56%

Hits: 2.5

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 2.083

Unsaved Wounds: 2.083

Models Killed: 2.083

Gets Hot Chance: 16.67

Gets Hot Hits: 0.5

Gets Hot Wounds Lost: 0.167

Options: Ignore Armour, Instakill, Hit On 2, Blast Hits 3, Gets Hot, Gets Hot Save 3

 

H. FLAMER

Shots: 1

Hit Chance: 100%

Hits: 5

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 4.167

Unsaved Wounds: 4.167

Models Killed: 4.167

Options: Ignore Armour, Ignore Cover, Auto Hit, Template Hits 5

 

 

 

Against this units the CML ties with the Plasma, but falls behind the Flamer and Assault Cannon.

 

 

 

Over all the frag missiles of the CML fails to exceed any of the other weapons and is subpar in most circumstances. As you have to shoot at what you charge you'd most likely have to be shooting infantry in most cases. For a 25 pts weapon using it in this way probably isn't the best, when a 15 pt or 10 pt weapon would be more efficient. As you look at the stats you'll notice that I gave the blast templates of the CMLS 3 hits a shot. With scatter this probably isn't always possible and even the stats here could be lower.

 

Two CMLs shooting frags would be good, but two heavy flamers or two Assault Cannons in most situations would be remarkably better and cheaper. If you're like me you are always scrounging for points when you are making your lists for chainfists, TH/SS and vehicle upgrades.

 

Anyway that's my thought on the topic.

[Darkangeldentist]

Very nice tactica article and I admire your commitment to it. I have a few bits and pieces I'd like to comment on and possibly criticise.

 

I quite like the Deathwing assault rule, although I agree that the wording is poor. Any time when you don't have to roll for reserves is good and it makes the most of the vengeful strike special rule. I vary a bit about which turn to bring them on but tend to have them deepstrike turn one when going first but am more likely to have them come in on the second turn when going second. It's useful enough that I almost always use this rule on some units when I run Deathwing.

 

HQ:

 

Some very good work here but I would really like to see a bit more info and thoughts about the pros and cons of taking just Belial or with an addition HQ. In particular the value and flexibility some of the special issue wargear a regular HQ (librarian or interrogator chaplain) can bring, for example melta bombs. This perhaps belongs in the wargear section at the end of the tactica but a mention is worth including in the HQ section.

 

Melta bombs are a cheap and great option for any character as it gives them a good crack at any tank. Upgrading a powerfist to a chainfist may cost the same but it's tied to a squad and can be removed by a precision shot. On an independent character you also get the benefit of being able to stick this tank buster into any unit you want. 

 

The auspex is a fantasic little item for a librarian or chaplain that is dropping down with a forward unit as reducing cover saves can be golden, particularly when your targets are high value and/or you have only a few shots that can deal with it. I have found it can make a big difference against some opponents since you can direct the auspex against a different target from the ones you are shooting at can maximise your effective firepower. (This can be particularly effective against skimmers with their jink saves and/or abilities that improve cover saves.)

 

Lastly of the wargear that I want to highlight is the porta rack. I rarely have points for this but it is a neat little item for any army like the Deathwing, ignore the teleport homer bit, what's valuable is the preferred enemy rule that it grants. You get the benefit from killing any enemy character in a challenge (so sergeants, exarchs etc...) and once he gets the rule, so does his squad. Anything that will increase the reliability of your Deathwing is worth considering.  

 

You do make some mention of weapon selection (and in great detail in the case of Belial) but I feel the lion's wrath worth of some note and combi-weapons in general. You may only be able to take the one character with these options but that one-shot melta, plasma or even flamer can sometimes make or break a turn.

 

A minor note about Belial's 'marked for retribution' rule. Due to the wording this applies to all his ranged attacks and whilst not the most obvious tactic it does mean that when you place him in base contact with a defensive weapon such as an icarus lascannon or quad autocannon, those shots benefit from the rule. Very cheeky when you manage to over-run an opponent's aegis defence line.

 

Fortress of shields does increase your risk against blast weapons but you can mitigate this substantially by remembering the majority toughness rules will apply the T5 to the whole unit when rolling to wound as long as the majority of the models in the unit are base to base with 2 or more models. A six strong unit can therefore count as toughness 5 against enemy rolls to wound so long a 3 members are base to base with each other. The remaining members can therefore spread out. This has two beneficial results besides lessening the danger from blast weapons, first these members will likely be the closest models and thus the trio bumping up the toughness remain in base to base, second it increases the unit's footprint on the table which increases your options for threatening effectively.

 

Nice break down of the benefits of the command squad and in particular the banners.

 

I think the examination of Deathwing squads was good but your preference for cyclone missile launchers skews the review a little regarding heavy weapon selection. I deplore the fact I have still yet to give the plasma cannon option any table time but heavy flamers and assault cannons are frequently inclusions into my deathwing lists. The assault cannon is a wonderful ball of potential and I regard it as superior to the cyclone against targets with a 2+ save due to rending and weight of fire. Heavy flamers I kind of agree with what's there but have found them notably useful against foes that charge a unit with one. The guaranteed overwatch hits from a heavy flamer is extremely welcome against long charges and any casualties you can inflict before combat starts is invaluable.

 

 

I am a big fan of regular land raiders and have run a pair of them in my own Deathwing lists, the lascannon firepower they bring is enough to make a relatively reasonable long range exchange. You can deal with tanks/transports and other troublesome targets using the land raiders. As with all land raiders their table presence makes them useful for limiting line of sight and as a transport can ensure a small unit stays around long enough to claim, contest and score towards the end of a game.

 

Drop pods deserve a mention as not only do they give dreadnoughts a means of threatening combat with the enemy from turn 1 onwards they can also take locator beacons which Deathwing coming in on turn two can use. This gives you a little more reliability with aggressive deep striking although the delayed arrival requires a list design that supports this strategy.

[[TA]Typher]

Good info Darkangeldentist.

 

I haven't gotten to the wargear section yet, but you bring up a lot of food for thought.

 

The DWK topic a good idea, but blast templates will still be hitting at least three if they don't scatter. It's still a good tactic, as they won't be hitting more. You'd have to place the non-bunched up guys in front or the plan fails as one of the bunched up guys dies. I'll add it when I get some time.

 

Heavy weapons is a mixed bag, with the CML being the most consistent. I don't think any of them are bad, but having the choice to shoot anything (Infantry and vehicles) is nice. Against more mobile armies you'll need some ranged anti-vehicle and while they are great at anti-infantry, Assault cannons just are not reliable in this role. CMLs are not always the best weapon. Look a the my post above yours. I clearly show that their frags missiles are not better than the others. Like I said I wouldn't say any of them are bad, just that the CML gives your heavy weapon model a broader role.

 

 

Land Raiders are relative. If I only transported 5 guys I'd always that the basic LR. The anti-vehicle it brings is great. I usually run Knights with a lib in my LRC. This gives me three units on the board that count against my reserve limit. I know I probably need to flesh out the vehicle section a bit. It's a lot of info and time to put into it. I appreciate all the info.

 

I'll make sure to add droppods in the dread section. I hardly ever use them, so any experience or tactics are welcomed.

[Darkangeldentist]

Glad you found the feedback useful.

 

Just noticed another omission from the tactica. In the special rules section you never mention the inner circle special rule. Fearless is mentioned but the inner circle rule is relevent for the fortress of shields rule, banner and lastly (and least likely to come up) the preferred enemy (chaos space marines) special rule.

 

I concede to your point on the heavy weapons regarding consistency. I guess the missing element that I hadn't noticed on my initial read was a run down on the options for squad armament for the rest of the unit. Do sergeants always get given a thunder hammer and storm shield? How many storm bolter and powerfist models do you take? How many models in the unit? None of these questions have perfect answers but they do follow some useful guidelines in my experience. Squad size is generally going to be largely dependent on what you can afford and balancing that tricky question of maximising your scoring units whilst getting as many bodies into those scoring units as possible.

 

The sergeant question is quite interesting as of late I've been fielding them with storm bolter and power sword, the initiative attacks are un-impressive but the extra storm bolter means that my 5 man units chuck out 8 bolter shots a turn in addition to whatever the heavy weapon is bringing. Once you get four or more storm bolters their weight of fire starts making an impact, even against marines. This (in a roundabout way) brings me back to heavy weapon choice. The cyclone is the most consistent but it also throws up the most tactical questions regarding how best to direct your firepower. Split fire means you need never waste the unit's shots to be able to send a couple of krak missiles against a tank but this has the consequence of all too often relegating the storm bolter fire an afterthought instead of a relevent and important component to your ranged game. Assault cannons and heavy flamers tend to be best directed at similar targets to the ones you would focus storm bolter fire on and as a result I find them more complimentary weapons as they support the defacto weapons my terminators come with.

 

This does nothing to the overall statistics but it does to something to the decision making on the table. Assault cannons share the same range as storm bolters and are best used against infantry as well so the squad will invariably have targets in range of all it's guns if it wants to make use of the assault cannon. Heavy flamers have terribly short ranges but using them brings the squad in close making combat likely if not inevitable and terminators are often best able to exploit their advantages when in combat.

 

 

The ranged presence has become more important in the game thanks in part to rules like overwatch but far more significantly the change to combat resolution with fearless units. No longer can you rely on winning combats and letting the overkill help finish off the remaining fearless foes. So careful application of firepower helps enormously when maximising efficiency in dealing with various targets.

 

I fielded with some success and a great deal of fun the following dual raider pure deathwing list at 1500pts. (Took it to a  throne of skulls and didn't do too badly, had fun and good to enjoy some great games.) I made a thread about my experience with it elsewhere on the forum but here's the list for ease of reference.

 

Belial (with sword of silence and storm bolter)

Librarian with terminator armour, force axe and storm bolter plus auspex (mastery level 1, divination)

 

5 Deathwing terminators with a heavy flamer

5 Deathwing terminators with an assault cannon

5 Deathwing terminators with an assault cannon

Land raider

Land raider

 

The list ran very well against most opponents, Belial and the Librarian often Deathwing assaulted with the heavy flamer squad whilst the assault cannon units deployed inside the land raiders. The effect of the storm bolter and assault cannon fire tended to have enough of a whittling effect at range to be relevent and worthwhile to have them footslog once the most relevent threats were dealt with. The land raiders added something that proved to be extremely valuable in many games, a decent and semi-reliable answer to enemy fliers. All those twin-linked lascannon shots tended to result in about one hit per turn and their high strength made them very reliable for getting a penetrating hit! This was also the list that opened my eyes to the effective potential of the auspex in a deathwing army.

[shabbadoo]

Term Heavy Weapons VS Infantry

Only in this circumstance actually, not most circumstances. Add in vehicle targets and the CML gets quite a bump, seeing as Str 8 is of notable benefit over the other weapons which are Str 5, 6 (Rending), and 7 (the AP 2 is only a factor vs. AV 12 or less) respectively. Then there is the very important factor of Range. Range 48" is rather more useful than 36", 24" or Template. Being able to reach and and touch the enemy from range if hugely important for a small foot-slogging army that, due to its small size, simply can not have a presence over much the field of battle. Without range, many enemy forces will have the option to simply stay away from a Deathwing force and kill it at its leisure, which is not desirable (well, at least not for the Deathwing player ).

And I am glad that somebody else like Dreadnoughts too. I always enjoy the mayhem they create.

[march10k]

The sergeant question is quite interesting as of late I've been fielding them with storm bolter and power sword

As have all of us...?  But only because the FAQ's unfortunate wording no longer allows other options.  Actually, I run one assault terminator squad and two tactical terminator squads, so I'd probably run two sergeants with power sword and stormbolter anyway...but not being able to make a thundernator out of the sergeant in the assault unit is maddening.

[Darkangeldentist]

As have all of us...?  But only because the FAQ's unfortunate wording no longer allows other options.  Actually, I run one assault terminator squad and two tactical terminator squads, so I'd probably run two sergeants with power sword and stormbolter anyway...but not being able to make a thundernator out of the sergeant in the assault unit is maddening.

 

Locally and further afield I have rarely come across anyone who has enforced it. Even my trip up to Nottingham for a throne of skulls event back in july I was the only person with Dark angels who seemed to follow that FAQ. (My last game was even against Dark angels and my opponent had thunder hammer and storm shield on his sergeant.)

 

So I feel quite alone in fielding power sword sergeants, on the other hand my blatent attempts to have them bullet catch for the rest of the unit most of the time (and true to the stubborn nature of all Dark angels) it has meant that my sergeants seem blessed with the most extreme tenacity.

[[TA]Typher]

I wish I could ignore my FAQ regarding Sgt. Load out. I don't think I could get away with it at my local shop. So until GW gets their act in gear I'll continue to make my Sgt a bullet sponge.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I wish I could ignore my FAQ regarding Sgt. Load out. I don't think I could get away with it at my local shop. So until GW gets their act in gear I'll continue to make my Sgt a bullet sponge.

I think my gaming group would let me get away with with, but I can't in good faith "cheat" like this.. Not that it's cheating if anyone is okay with it, but I am not.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Agreed; even a nonsence rule is still a rule and difficult to ignore :P my group have no problem with me ignoring it either btw. :D

[march10k]

Every terminator squad needs an ablative meat shield!

[[TA]Typher]

11/03/13 - Added a Wargear sections, thanks to Brother DarkAngelDentist

[Buster]

This was a great read and I keep coming back to it for advice and reference. I notice a lot of the builds are for 1650 and up. I've been trying to build for a 1500 list since there's a series of tournaments coming up locally that run at that point level. I think I've got a decent list but the big squad I run with Belial always seems to under perform. Its a full ten man squad with two heavy flamers, three thunder hammers, four claws, and the sergeant. They never get to assault at full strength and I feel like I'm wasting points. Should I just keep them with mostly storm bolters or weather my opponents turn and try to assault?