Chaplains Charging!

[Acebaur]

So lets say you have two units with a chaplain in each one(or Grimaldus with a second unit within 6").  Unit A assaults enemy unit C on lets say turn 3.  Unit A gets their Hatred re-rolls. Then lets say on turn 4, unit B assaults Unit C as well. Since they also have a chaplain that unit also has Hatred. Do they also get their Hatred re-rolls?  The Hatred rule says that they get re-rolls in the first round of a close combat, so the question is does that mean each unit's first round or only the first round of the entire close combat until one unit is destroyed/flees?

[dswanick]

I think this will depend entirely on your groups interpretation of the phrase "first round of a close combat", but generally it's been my experience that it is interpreted as the first round of a close combat for the unit receiving the bonus (so Unit A gets it in turn 3 and Unit B gets it in turn 4 in your example).

[Quozzo]

RAW: Round is not defined, there are turns, phases and sub-phases but not rounds, so no model gets Hatred, ever.

 

RAI: He gets the rerolls, as I would assume its interpretation to be (supposedly) similar to that of Furious Charge.

[Firepower]

Hm, that's a different way of phrasing the original issue, but it does raise a valid point.

The original issue was thus:

Grimaldus has a 6" Zeal bubble. If he attacks a unit turn 1, and the combat continues into turn 2, does another unit that charges into the same combat and falls under Grim's bubble receive Zeal, meaning re-rolls for their first turn in the combat? Not only is it not the first round of the combat, it is also not the first round of the combat for the Chaplain creating the Zeal bonus. The second half of that seems moot, just pointing it out to be thorough.

However, the way you have phrased it here, Acebaur, does make for the same point in a way that more strongly presses the RAI intuition-button than this version.

So then a question- RAI, it means the first round of combat for the unit in question. RAW- it means the first turn of the combat, no matter how things change, up until the combat is resolved. Now if RAW is correct and yet Grim still confers Zeal to reinforcements on turn 2, that would imply that it is now a new combat on account of the change to the number of parties involved, and as a new combat, Grim's unit would get Zeal again, too.

That last bit is just to play with the words a bit

[Acebaur]

Well Grim's bubble simply grants the Zealot rule to models within 6". So whether or not Grim is engaged doesn't matter, he still grants the rule to nearby units.

[Kraytirous]

To use basic philosophical tenses...

 

RAI:

1. Zeal grants Hatred.

2. Hatred grants a bonus in the first round of a combat.

3. Grimaldus gives Zeal to all units within 6".

4. A unit charges an existing combat while within 6" of Grimaldus.

5. The unit gains Zeal (3 and 4).

6. The unit is experiencing its first round of combat in this particular combat.

7. The unit gains the benefits from Hatred (1, 2, 5, 6).

 

RAW 1:

Premises 1-5 remain true.

6. The unit is experiencing the third round of the combat it is charging into.

7. The unit does not benefit from Hatred. (2, 6)

 

RAW 2:

Premises 1-5 remain true.

6. The first combat existed for 2 rounds (the one in which a unit charged and the subsequent player's turn) when a third unit enters it.

7. The combat is defined by the units that are fighting within it (i.e. chaplain and tactical marines).

8. The units that are fighting within the combat has changed (a unit has joined).

9. Therefore the unit charging into the combat and the unit already in combat benefit from Zeal, as it is now the first round of a new combat. (5, 6, 7, 8)

 

Problem with RAW 2:

 

If premise 8 is true, than that leads to the idea that if the units themselves changed (i.e. casualties/ reanimation protocols) they are no longer the same unit. Therefore as long as a single casualty is suffered or model rejoins the fight, the combat is no longer the same combat, therefore a new one has started and premise 5 applies all over again.

 

I personally think RAI is the one that makes the most sense.