Profiles and WYSIWYG

[WulfenRaider]

So I had a small bout with a player tonight, he (a Dark Angels player) argued that you can only use the weapons shown on your model, I disagreed stating that you use the profile entry. In the interest of "good sportsmanship" I only used the weapons shown on my grey hunters ... But only the bolters, not the CCW.

 

In our codex, it states that Grey Hunters are equipped with 3 weapons. Does this mean that I can choose to use the pistol and CCW over the bolter? And where can I find it in writing.

 

Pg 50 & 51 don't say anything about profile equipment, which is why the argument started...

 

Thanks for your help!

[MustangTC]

That's a harsh interpretation of the rules. How would we even do it? All our models would look hugely cluttered. 3 armed hunters?!

[Brother Captain Sirus]

You could always arm each with bolter and ccw, and have the bolt pistol in a holster. To me that interpretaution is twisting the WYSIWYG just to gain the slightest advantage, its bad but not uncommon, which is a shame.

[Sohail187]

players like that, make me want to throw dice in his face..... one at a time.

 

Luckily not a single player at my club has ever moaned about my GH not showing the CCW. However slightly off topic i got a question regarding TWC. It states in codex, that TWM provide users with +1 S - T & A. TWC unit start with 4 attacks, is this already including the bonus attack from the TWM? or is it 5 with the mount?

[DanPesci]

For actual thunderwolf cavalry, the extra S, T and A is already included in their profile. The thunderwolf mount wargear entry is only there for the purposes of when you put a lord/batttle leader etc onto a thunderwolf mount (similar to if you put them on a bike).

 

 

on the original post...fully anal readings of the wysiwyg rules like that is a joke. For me the whole point to wysiwyg is to stop confusion and make it clear on what special gear/upgrades models have. When your base troops are all armed with exactly the same setup, needing to have the bolter, ccw, and bolt pistol on every grey hunter is ridiculous, and spoils you doing any custom modelling on your hunters. My grey hunter packs usually have a mix of setups (some with bolter/CS, some with BP/CS, some with all three etc)...most people (ie those not trying to bend the rules to their advantage) seem perfectly happy with this setup (and for me it looks a lot better on the tabletop).

[Wulfebane]

So I had a small bout with a player tonight, he (a Dark Angels player) argued that you can only use the weapons shown on your model, I disagreed stating that you use the profile entry. In the interest of "good sportsmanship" I only used the weapons shown on my grey hunters ... But only the bolters, not the CCW.

In our codex, it states that Grey Hunters are equipped with 3 weapons. Does this mean that I can choose to use the pistol and CCW over the bolter? And where can I find it in writing.

Pg 50 & 51 don't say anything about profile equipment, which is why the argument started...

Thanks for your help!

One. Have your friend show you where the rule WYSIWYG is written in the 6th edition rulebook. The only blurb even close to 5th edition's ruling is reserved for the power and force weapon profiles on pg. 60-61. No rule, no issue. The only places where WYSIWYG is enforced are at official tournaments, and determined by your TO.

 

Two. Should your friend (or even the TO) bother to argue against item One, pg. 81 in C:SW under the Wargear heading "details the weapons and equipment the models in the unit are armed with." You purchase a GH with all the wargear under their heading. They don't suddenly lose a boltgun because you didn't model it. Nowhere in the codex are you under any obligation to represent a model's pre-assigned wargear. The WYSIWYG rule was for items you, the player, purchased as upgrades for the model(s), such as meltaguns or missile launchers ..and as a reminder, was in 5th edition, not 6th.

 

If your opponent (or TO) is confused with what a basic Grey Hunter is armed with, refer them to the codex, not the model. Assuming the model is on a 25mm base and resembles a power armoured space marine, there is nothing that can oppose the standard wargear loadout.

[Valerian]

However slightly off topic i got a question regarding TWC. It states in codex, that TWM provide users with +1 S - T & A. TWC unit start with 4 attacks, is this already including the bonus attack from the TWM? or is it 5 with the mount?

Look at the unit entry for Thunderwolf Cavalry; now where in the entry does it say that they have Thunderwolf Mounts as wargear?

[Mammon]

At the end of the day you can tell him the reason your GHs lack CCWs is because even an unarmed marine is considered a deadly weapon. Hell, instead of a bolt pistol you can just model some pebbles around the Hunter's feet; I would imagine a genetically engineered super soldier would have a lethal fast ball!

[Rift Blade]

Worst case scenario, we get a lot of knives with our kits, even on some of the models. Just glue on some knives to your GH's.

[Lysere]

When the WYSIWYG rule was in the codex it also said this only mattered for upgrades, base gear did not have to be represented on a model because it is assumed that the model has the item in question. Also good place for a combat knife is mounted under the bolter barrel, bayonet style. Yes marines can do this, it's popped up in a few of the books I've read.

[MaveriK]

Don't over complicate it by attaching extra wargear on your models. Don't lower yourself those ignorant standards. If his logic was the case then ask him how does one WYSIWYG sagas? or the machine spirit?

 

I'm curious as to what your ignorant Dark Angel opponent fielded against you. I'd like to personally know as common sense and logic usually trumps over idiocy. Because his words can easily contradict his own with what models he had that day.

 

Next time you face him, either educate the boy or don't play him at all. Why conform to other peoples stupidity to ruin a game meant to be played for fun! Not to mention I'm sure it's been stated in the big rule book about WYSIWYG.

 

End of story.

[Valerian]

To the OP, this has already been beaten to death, but just to add my two cents on the matter:

 

First, WYSIWYG is not a rule; I would challenge your opponent to find it in the rulebook. Rather, it is helpful to think of WYSIWYG as a philosphy - it is an arrangement between players to assist in reducing confusion, as well as unsportsmanlike "hijinks" when playing games of 40k. If you agree to this goal, then it becomes clear that the value of WYSIWYG occurs when displaying Options and Upgrades, not basic equipment, weapons, or gear. Therefore, when the unit entry says all of the models in the unit come equipped with Bolters, Bolt Pistols, and Close Combat Weapons, then all players have to take that at face value. There is no inherent confusion, as the entry clearly states what they have.

 

WYSIWYG comes into play when one of those models trades in his Bolter for a Special Weapon, for example. If you've spent the points to take a Melta Gun, and you have a Hunter with a Melta Gun on your Army List, then you should also have a model in that Hunter pack that is holding a Melta Gun (and not a Flamer or a Plasma Gun).

 

The counterpositive is also true, if you have not paid for a Wolf Standard for that pack, then you shouldn't have any models bearing a banner or standard that might confuse a player (either your opponent or you) into thinking that the unit has something that it doesn't.

[irwit]

That's one of the most anal things in have heard. I wouldn't of played, doesn't sound like a player that would of enjoyed the game unless he won.

[WulfenRaider]

@ Wolfbane: I did ask him to site his referance, that just made him more irritable when he thumbed through the BRB and my Codex. It took him 20 min, I went and got a red bull from the vending machine.

 

@ MavriK: he had about 60/40 Deathwing/Power Armor and a Lone Pred. He Drop Podded the Deathwing in Turn two, but did so pretty far out. I held 2 of 3 objectives and he had to walk into my plasma spam fire lines. He didnt like that I used a bolter at 24" and a plasma pistol (Which was modeled with a CCW) with in 12". He hardly had any shots with his combi weapons and fired into buildings, I dodnt want to push ALL the terrain he fired through. I had 2 squads of Grey Hunters in Rhinos with Plasma and a 3rd unit of 5 in a RB (thats where I had the Pistol), Rune Priest in the RB, and 3 TWC with a Storm shield and Thunder hammer. I pretty much chewed him up at mid range. There was hardly an assault, mostly just my TWC moving in to contest the third objective from his commander in turn 4.

 

@ irwit:You are right. He didnt enjoy it. He still lost. He was especially sour after my Rune Priest dropped almost an entire squad of Termies and his Pred with Jaws (seperate turns). Not enough Pew Pew, so he QQ. :)

 

After all that was said and done, I tried to be a good sport. I played only with what was modeled from that point forth and tried to shake his hand after he lost. He just said I was a cocky {explicitive deleted} and left.

[irwit]

I played someone similar to that. Every other dice roll was followed by profanity in some sort and the guy got really aggressive. He also only ever saw it when I got a good roll and they were all bs too apparently.

[G. A. K.]

I was following this thread and agree about the WYSIWYG, however I only have one question:

How did you JotWW a Pred??

 

G

[Wulfebane]

Btw his Deathwing TDA cannot take drop pods.

[DanPesci]

aye was about to say....deathwing in drop pods??!!?

my housemate (who is a dark angels player) would kill to have deathwing in drop pods

[Denison512]

I have to ask where did you meet this guy? Lol I mean seriously talk about a sore loser no need to get aggravated this is only a game after all haha I get my ass handed to me regulary I just shrug my shoulders and enjiy the company of my fellow player if they are a nice person

[Lysere]

I was following this thread and agree about the WYSIWYG, however I only have one question:

How did you JotWW a Pred??

 

G

 

Because the dice gods didn't like the look of his dread since he was making issues of rules that aren't in the book anymore. Honestly his time woulda been better spent reading the actual rules and realizing Jaws does nothing to vehicles (No Initiative value and jaws specifically says it doesn't work on them) rather than arguing over a rule that is actually only brought up in Apoc.

[WulfenRaider]

@G.A.K. & Lysere: that was my bad , that was my lack of attention. It should be Dread, not Pred. My appologies.

 

@ Wulfebane & DanPesci: DW are painted white, right. His were white as we're his drop pods.

 

@ Denison: I have the misfortune of working with him in my clinic. He walks around with a cocky smile until he sees me, then is a scornful grimace. Others we work with think its hilarious...

[Wulfebane]

Well, DA's Deathwing are terminators, and traditionally painted a bone white. They're also not allowed drop pods. If TDA came out of those pods, he basically should be smacked with his own codex.

[logun]

Well, DA's Deathwing are terminators, and traditionally painted a bone white. They're also not allowed drop pods. If TDA came out of those pods, he basically should be smacked with his own codex.

 

any blunt object would suffice.

 

we all know these guys, the particular guy in our group conveniently leaves out the upgrades and heavy weapons on his scribbled chicken scrawl lists and amazingly seems to have quite a few dark lances when ever he plays my mech list(our matchups are not pre determined), as well as unit jumping from transport to transport depending on the situation, he also seems to forget rules if your not watching like a hawk in his turn but amazingly has great recollection in our turn. we are pretty lax about him pulling his shenanigans because 9/10 times he'll get a whopping anyway and packs up very quickly, and quietly leaves early. he beat me the other night, but we are currently playing a scenario where the defenders(imperium) have 25% less than the attackers(xenos) so i don't feel so bad about the loss. don't get me started on his dice rolling. 

 

anyway my point is, most groups if they are big enough have these douchebags. just roll with it and smile.

[Grey Mage]

So I had a small bout with a player tonight, he (a Dark Angels player) argued that you can only use the weapons shown on your model, I disagreed stating that you use the profile entry. In the interest of "good sportsmanship" I only used the weapons shown on my grey hunters ... But only the bolters, not the CCW.

 

In our codex, it states that Grey Hunters are equipped with 3 weapons. Does this mean that I can choose to use the pistol and CCW over the bolter? And where can I find it in writing.

 

Pg 50 & 51 don't say anything about profile equipment, which is why the argument started...

 

Thanks for your help!

Thats not in the rules.

 

If you have any options taken, they must be modeled. BP+CCW are not... options.

[Lysere]

@G.A.K. & Lysere: that was my bad , that was my lack of attention. It should be Dread, not Pred. My appologies.

 

@ Wulfebane & DanPesci: DW are painted white, right. His were white as we're his drop pods.

 

@ Denison: I have the misfortune of working with him in my clinic. He walks around with a cocky smile until he sees me, then is a scornful grimace. Others we work with think its hilarious...

 

Like to point out dreadnoughts are also immune to Jaws as Vehicles are not one of the accepted target choices. Either way it was still a big no, although I'd call it even given his shenanigans.