A question or 2 about Ravenwing

[captain sox]

Hi Folks!

 

 With all your inspiration and motivation, I am working towards "completing" my DA Army. I have a modified battle company (6 Tactical, 1 Assault, 3 Devastator) mostly un-built and I have 40 terminators, in various configurations.  

 

 Now I'm looking at the Ravenwing. I have 15 Regular Bikes, 3 Attack Bikes, a Command Squad and 6 Black Knights.

 

 Now my question is when it comes to games, playing a mixed wing list, would 3 x 5 Marine bike squads be enough? I know in a pure RW army I'd need to get those squads up to 6... but to be honest, I rarely play 1500pt games. Usually its round 1000.

 

 With so many models in the army, I'm thinking 15 Bikes is more than enough, but what is the consensus from those with experience?

 

 Also, I was thinking of going with 2 x 5 Black Knights instead of the 1x6.

 

So basically, how many Bikes is enough?

 

 

[facmanpob]

For me, 5 bikes is fine if you are using the Ravenwing Company Banner (and for such a piddling amount of points why wouldn't you?). If using the Standard of Devastation then 6 bikes is best

[Brother dean]

3-5 scoring bikes left at the end of the last turn is enough....

If you are playing with greenwing then your scoring is going to be done with the infantry so your theory may work fine because a 5 man is more survivable but for a pure RW force you really do need as many scoring units as you can get and therefore must be fielded as 6 for combat squads.

Your 5 man squads will not unlock speeders in a troops choice causing you to burn a separate FA slot if you want to include some, but it sounds like you are using the bikes as FA instead of troops anyway...

[SvenONE]

Your model count looks fine, at the lower point levels, I think taking the speeders are an ok investment.  

 

I would say bring the meltas and the melta bombs if you have the spare points.  I think at 1,000 points it's too low for the banner AND a FA knight squad AND Sammael.  So if you run the banner just max go max models in the command squad and leave it there.  Don't forget you can still bring a Libby on a bike, park him and the command squad next to some tacticals and enjoy DEVASTATION.

 

I've beeng runing a RWing centric army more recently, my pure RW army would be something like Sammael/Librarian (bike) with banner command squad (max knights), full bike squads with MMAB, mostly kitted with PGs and a few with MG.  Then I fill the FA slot out with knights or 2x Darkshrouds (at least 1).

 

I personally don't do mix-wing under 1500 points, I feel that it ends up being a little bit of everything not enough of anything.  But that's just me.  If you DO do mixwing at lower point games, don't fall into the trap of feeling obligated to take Sammael or Belial (or Azrael).  They are huge point sinks at that level and don't offer very much.  I don't run Sammael unless I'm using a pure RW list.  With the way I play, I don't use RW as objective holders, but OBJ deniers so I don't need troops for that.  Let the tacs do that.  If you do the RW/DW combo, don't bother bringing Belial, his no-scatter is kind of useless since you're going to have all these bikes on the table, again that's how I see it.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Don't forget my Friend with the black knights you only get to swap for the Grenade Launcher for every three members. I run 1x6 RWBK to allow two grenade launchers so I can rad grenade with one and stasis with the other. Four Plasma Talons should be enough to hurt anything and then Assault whats left with Corvus Hammers. Besides 1x6 is a perfect mini bully unit and all purpose as well. Personally I use the Landspeeder  MM/HF combo and Deepstrike them on to something that will die. I know guys like to use the Typhoon and it is nice but god help you if your opponent shoots more than a booger at it. For me 70 pts to erase that one tank or place a HF template onto a unit in cover is well worth the risk of Deepstriking in. Take a pair and you've got a nice little anti everything element to go with the bikes. If they survive great use them to late game grab but if you are going mostly bikes this shouldn't be too much of an issue but who knows.

 

DoC

 

PS glad to hear you are going to complete the army. If nothing else teach some kids to play with it and be the coolest guy forever.

[InstantKarma]

Don't forget my Friend with the black knights you only get to swap for the Grenade Launcher for every three members.

 

Question; are the Grenade Launchers worth replacing a Plasma Talon?  The more I went over the rules, the more I thought it was better to keep the PTs for more re-rollable plasma shots.  The Grenades seem nice in theory, but given it's limited on to models 'hit' and debuffing models doesn't seem nearly as effective as removing them from the table.

[Brother dean]

 

Don't forget my Friend with the black knights you only get to swap for the Grenade Launcher for every three members.

 

Question; are the Grenade Launchers worth replacing a Plasma Talon?  The more I went over the rules, the more I thought it was better to keep the PTs for more re-rollable plasma shots.  The Grenades seem nice in theory, but given it's limited on to models 'hit' and debuffing models doesn't seem nearly as effective as removing them from the table.

Please dont forget that the RWGL can shoot Frag and Krak too...

Krack being a Rapid Fire weapon is intriguing.

[SvenONE]

The Rad Charge applies to every model in the unit.  Not just the one, so as long as it hits a model, every unit is -1T.  This is a force multiplier, so against MEQ all those boltguns are now wounding on 3s, all of those plasma talons are potentially now IDing multiwound units.  1 of them is well worth it.  They are immediately affected by this meaning the S3 rad charge is now wounding on 4s, not a bad deal.

[captain sox]

"PS glad to hear you are going to complete the army. If nothing else teach some kids to play with it and be the coolest guy forever."

My mom says I already am

In all seriousness, I am really excited and motivated to "complete" my army (is it ever really complete).

The advice given about Mixed wing under 1500 has a lot of merit... I think I will stick to only Raven or Deathwing in the lower point games.

Once again, the forum saves the day!

[ValourousHeart]

I'd say that if your plan is to play a mixed wing the the perfect number of RW (or DW or GW) is to be able to field a pure list at your given pts level.

 

That should give you enough choices and be fairly flexible.

[march10k]

The GL is an enabling weapon...on its own it does nothing special and is a terrible choice...drop a rad grenade on the enemy unit that you absolutely have to kill right now, though, and follow through with the required amount of shooting...dropping the T of any flavor of bikers is always worthwhile...the GL has potential to be a lot better than a plasma talon.  The thing is, you have to put thought and effort into maximizing its potential, while adding dice to the plasma talon attack requires no thought at all!

 

3x5 bikes is better than 2x6 plus 1x3....

[Interrogator Stobz]

You could always go crazy:

Sammael,

RWCS(5)

2x RAS(3) w/-2MG each sqd

RWBK(6)

RWBK(3)

 

That's 18 models and only two not packing special weapons, and with the few spare points you could give them MBs or PWs etc.

 

In the words of Sammy himself...."ATTACK!!!"

[captain sox]

You could always go crazy:

Sammael,

RWCS(5)

2x RAS(3) w/-2MG each sqd

RWBK(6)

RWBK(3)

 

That's 18 models and only two not packing special weapons, and with the few spare points you could give them MBs or PWs etc.

 

In the words of Sammy himself...."ATTACK!!!"

I like dis!

[InstantKarma]

The Rad Charge applies to every model in the unit.  Not just the one, so as long as it hits a model, every unit is -1T.  This is a force multiplier, so against MEQ all those boltguns are now wounding on 3s, all of those plasma talons are potentially now IDing multiwound units.  1 of them is well worth it.  They are immediately affected by this meaning the S3 rad charge is now wounding on 4s, not a bad deal.

 

I know it's every model hit, but at best that is what, 3-4 models?  And those won't necessarily be the ones first removed from shooting due to scattering etc.  It just seems so unreliable vs more str 7 p2 re-rollable shots that will easily kill TEQs or MEQs easily.  I could see some use on anything above T5 to bring them down a notch (like an MC for example) but against rank and file troops or even some elite infantry, I really don't see a reason to drop the PT.

[InstantKarma]

Don't forget my Friend with the black knights you only get to swap for the Grenade Launcher for every three members.

Question; are the Grenade Launchers worth replacing a Plasma Talon? The more I went over the rules, the more I thought it was better to keep the PTs for more re-rollable plasma shots. The Grenades seem nice in theory, but given it's limited on to models 'hit' and debuffing models doesn't seem nearly as effective as removing them from the table.

Please dont forget that the RWGL can shoot Frag and Krak too...

Krack being a Rapid Fire weapon is intriguing.

I would see even less reason. Maybe at longer rnage I'll get a few shots, but with Scout and a 12 in move, getting into Rapid Fire Range of the PT should not be much issue, which means have w str 6 ap 4 RF shots vs 2 Twin-linked Str 7 ap 2 shots, seems like a no brainer there. I could see the Frag option as useful for clearing away chaif like cultists, but I thought thats what all those twin-linked bolters on the RW bikes and a Dakka Pole are for

P

erhaps I'm just too direct in my tactics and need to learn some more finese.

[Brother dean]

 

The Rad Charge applies to every model in the unit.  Not just the one, so as long as it hits a model, every unit is -1T.  This is a force multiplier, so against MEQ all those boltguns are now wounding on 3s, all of those plasma talons are potentially now IDing multiwound units.  1 of them is well worth it.  They are immediately affected by this meaning the S3 rad charge is now wounding on 4s, not a bad deal.

 

I know it's every model hit, but at best that is what, 3-4 models?  And those won't necessarily be the ones first removed from shooting due to scattering etc.  It just seems so unreliable vs more str 7 p2 re-rollable shots that will easily kill TEQs or MEQs easily.  I could see some use on anything above T5 to bring them down a notch (like an MC for example) but against rank and file troops or even some elite infantry, I really don't see a reason to drop the PT.

You are missing the point....  (using a SM tac squad)  If you even hit ONE member of the squad...  ALL TEN of the members in the squad are affected by the debuff.  Not just the 2-3 under the template.  

 

Go re-read page 61 again.   

 

"Every member of the unit [that is] hit"

[InstantKarma]

 

 

The Rad Charge applies to every model in the unit.  Not just the one, so as long as it hits a model, every unit is -1T.  This is a force multiplier, so against MEQ all those boltguns are now wounding on 3s, all of those plasma talons are potentially now IDing multiwound units.  1 of them is well worth it.  They are immediately affected by this meaning the S3 rad charge is now wounding on 4s, not a bad deal.

 

I know it's every model hit, but at best that is what, 3-4 models?  And those won't necessarily be the ones first removed from shooting due to scattering etc.  It just seems so unreliable vs more str 7 p2 re-rollable shots that will easily kill TEQs or MEQs easily.  I could see some use on anything above T5 to bring them down a notch (like an MC for example) but against rank and file troops or even some elite infantry, I really don't see a reason to drop the PT.

You are missing the point....  (using a SM tac squad)  If you even hit ONE member of the squad...  ALL TEN of the members in the squad are affected by the debuff.  Not just the 2-3 under the template.  

 

Go re-read page 61 again.   

 

"Every member of the unit [that is] hit"

 

 

Thats exactly my point (I think it says model though, not member).  It is any model that is hit, not 'every model in a unit hit' which mean two very different things.  The way i'm reading it this means just those models because I think it isn't worded as 'every' but as 'any' model.

 

Am I really just misreading this?

 

Edited for clarification.

[Brother dean]

Yes, yes you are.  If it was "any model under the template" it would phrase it that way.  you are adding commas where there are none.

 

Let me rephrase again...  

Every model in a unit hit by one or more...  

 

 

Hits for the Rad Charge special effect are resolved by the unit not by the model.   Now if the S3 happens to kill something, THAT will come from under the template....

Please note that Stasis Anomaly and Vast Stasis Anomaly use the exact same wording and if I am reading it wrong then there are a great many  of us in this forum reading it wrong.

[elphilo]

You are misreading it. It says, and I quote:

Every model in a unit hit by one or more rad shells suffers. . .

Emphasis mine. So I hit one guy, the entire unit suffers a -1T. Also since its on a hit result, and not wound, the unit firing get to wound on their new Toughness value.

Bah I was ninjaed!

[Brother dean]

Yes but you were emphasis on different words to say the same thing...   Maybe your words will work better than mine.

[elphilo]

I hope, but sometimes I confuse myself when trying to explain things :P

[InstantKarma]

Thank you Brother Dean and Elphilo! Well that changes my thoughts on RWGL entirely!

Last question then; if you have 6 RWBKs, do you take 1 or 2 RWGLs?

Wait, I answered my own question, you take 2! One to fire Stasis and one to fire Rad, shooty shooty and CHARGE! Chop chop GG!

Edited for excitement over new cool thing learned!

[Brother dean]

Been there done that many times...

 

And this:

 

Also since its on a hit result, and not wound, the unit firing get to wound on their new Toughness value.

 

Answers my one question with it because "Hey, isnt all shooting from one unit simo?" We played it as a debuff for the same squad for the rest of the game but I didnt know the mechanism that allowed me to do that, I guess I just needed to channel my MtG resolution order....

[Chaplain Lucifer]

• Brother Dean and elphilo have it right. You only need one hit to affect the whole unit.

[Brother dean]

Two...  It'll give you either a re-roll with the rad grenade if you declare you are shooting two or will give you a shot at a Stasis grenade as well if you want to HtH them in the assault phase and attempt to, (you will likely mince them up rather badly) keep them locked in HtH for their turn of shooting, Hit and run if they are still alive at the end of their assault phase and shoot them again or move on in your turn.