DA vs New C:SM; My first impression

[Flake]

I had my first battle with the new C:SM and I came away with a new opinion of the book that I thought was going to overshadow our DA.

 

Now, I don't know. Maybe it's that the book is brand new and people are still figuring it out but I think maybe the new C:SM is a trap. Where as before, when C:SM was the basis of 40K and all other codexes were deviations, I think C:SM has been written in such a way that player's will have to build very one dimensional lists - the exact opposite of DA's structure.

 

The game was 2K. My army was Deathwing with 2 scout units and a Nephilim to harass his infantry. His army was Iron Hands with Imperial Guard allies and between his Guardsmen, Tac Marines, Bikers, Dreads, Rhinos, etc he outnumbered me by nearly 4 to 1. I began the game with very little confidence, knowing that even with 2+ saves and the Standard of Fortitude, he could easily force enough saves to wipe me.

 

He was all but tabled by the end of the third turn when he conceded.

 

So what happened? I honestly think that his list had more range and versatility. It could handle (theoretically) anything and if I tried to build the same list using DA, he would have curb stomped me. The problem is that he chose the Iron Hands combat tactics but didn't build an army that could properly take advantage of it. Not enough multi wound characters, not enough tanks, not enough Dreads. That one small choice took an army that was already a generalist force that can do everything decently and nothing expertly and made it even less effective.

 

If he'd taken a different combat tactic, say the one that allows for re-rolling missed bolter shots (Emperor's Hands?) his Tac marines could have harassed the hell out of my small DW squads - but then his characters would have died even faster to my DW Knights and Nephilim.

 

I think that this is what we're going to see from C:SM players - lists that have to be tailored to the specific combat tactics and therefor have built in weaknesses. DA lists can have the same problem but it's always by choice, never design. If I take my DW into battle, I know that I am going to have mobility issues after DWA but if I want to remedy that, I can take something from Ravenwing. If scoring will be an issue, dropping one DW unit gets me two Tac squads with a heavy weapon and a ride.

 

When I compare Dark Angels and Space Marines, I feel like ours is the book that can better take all comers where Space Marines will always have to tailor to match their opponent. And no matter how they tailor, Space Marines will always come with some built in weakness that cannot be mitigated without creating a new liability.

[Eternal Warrior]

Imperial Fists get the reroll bit I believe they are only 1s. What did you take against him? Great job not buckling under the hype. double edit. I somehow missed an entire paragraph. Again. Great job.

[Flake]

My 2K Deathwing List was:

 

HQ:

Belial (TH/SS)

TDA Librarian (Prescience, Force Axe, Infravisor)

DW Command Squad (Standard of Fortitude, Champion, Plasma Cannon, 2x TH/SS)

 

Troops:

5x DW (1x TH/SS, 1x Lightning Claws, CML, CF)

5x DW (1x TH/SS, 1x Lightning Claws, AssCan)

5x Scouts (Snipers)

6x Scouts (Snipers, Heavy Bolter)

Elites:

Venerable Dreadnought (ML and TL Lascannon)

Dreadnought (TL Hvy Flamer, Hvy Flamer DCCW, Droppod, Deathwind ML)

5x Deathwing Knights

 

Fast Attack:

Nephilim Jetfighter (Avenger Megabolter)

[Brother dean]

One game does not a verifiable conclusion make.  What happens when he figures out how to build a list to the strengths of his traits or finds traits to fit his list?  You yourself said he didnt play to his strengths and that we learned to work around our deficiancies...  Other players learn too.

 

Also were you rolling hot?  Was he rolling cold?   Only the weight of several games will even these questions out.

 

That said, I still feel that Deathwing break the meta quite badly and even Grav weapons do not mess with that much...

[InstantKarma]

<sub>On the one hand I'm glad you overcame the hype and didn't get scared off by the 'big shiney new codex'.

One point I will disagree on is the 'built in weakness' theory you've presented.  A key thing is that even with Chapter Tactics encouraging a certain method of army building, these are still Space Marines.  Tac squads can be tailored to many roles, Strenguard still got their special ammo, Ironclads can be tough cookies to crack etc.  Will certain units benefit MORE from CTs? Absolutely, but it doesn't REQUIRE the player to only pick those units.  CTs ADD to the Vanilla SMs, they generally don't subtract.  I think only the most ardent adherents to fluff would refuse to take a Land Raider because it won't get to Scout using Raven Guard CTs (to give an example).  I know the Vanilla Marines have been discussin a lot of how to take full advantage of their CTs, stay loyal to 'fluff' and not gimp their competitiveness.  As Brother Dean said, they're learning.  You're right to be hesitant because people are still learning the book.  It's only been a month.

I'd also point out that the Ultrasmurfs CT is designed to encourage an army build based on being as flexible as possible (at least 1 Tac, 1 Assault, and 1 Dev) and  when you look at it, it doesn't encourage the same method of unit spam as might the Imperial Fists or White Scars (who are supposedly the new 'go to' army).</sub>

[Flake]

This is by no means my conclusion, just an impression and an experience that has significantly altered the way I compare our new codex with the new C:SM.

 

However, even in the case of the 'smurfs, I still think I see a real liability in the way CTs are designed. We don't really have an analog trait - our "combat tactics" are doled out to units based on their position in the DA hierarchy: Scouts have the basic ATSKNF, Tacs and all mid level DA's have army wide stubborn (blessing and curse that it can be) and IC's and DW have the Inner Circle rule which is pretty amazing. It's consistent, though. No DW model or IC will ever be without their Inner Circle. As long as it isn't a scout unit, DA's aren't going to be running from combat any time soon.

 

Because the SM combat tactics are universally army wide, I see our opponents being penalized whenever they include something in their army that doesn't mesh well. A Salamander player might be hard pressed to put in Devastators whereas an Ultramarines Player will pop them in every time even though he can only get limited mileage from that one turn of Devastator tactics.

 

I don't think the book is gimped by any stretch of the imagination, but I do see our opponents being hamstrung with difficult list building decisions and synergy issues that don't plague DA in the slightest. DW and RW will always be best buddies on the table. Our Tac marines will Dakka next to our Devastators just fine. Our LS Vengeance will...continue to collect dust (they can't all be winners). At any rate, this is the distinction I was hoping to find but skeptical of. Something that prevents our book from being C:SM lite as it was when I picked it up in 5th. 

[ellis_esquire]

I have to agree with the op. I also have rolled over two ultramarine space marine lists. It could be they are trying to find their feet but... My 1500 banner of devastation in a command squad in a lrc list surrounded by two tactical squads two ravenwing attack squads and a deathwing termi squad x 2 with azzy is killa and dread in a drop pod.

The mobile fortress of tactical and azzy roll forward, scouting ras flanking th two sides dropping termis in a lump dwa with homers. Vengeful strike turn one, get the right set up and I obliterated nearly his while army before he could get his storm chicken and termis in. He conceded turn 3.

 

Who says raven guard are the masters of lightning strike!

[Eternal Warrior]

What are your thoughts on the Nephilim? The community seems to be of a negative attitude about our fliers mostly because of their points. While I think they are the best looking fliers and will most likely get one if each, how does the nephilim perform for you and what do you mark as it's targets and what do you avoid with it?

[Isiah]

ET there is a (currently) two page topic elsewhere in this DA forum on the Nephilim. I'd give you a link but posting this from an iphone so no idea how to do it :/

 

Cheers

I

[Terrified Templar]

    We don't mind being hamstrung in the slightest when we build our lists, we like making sure our deviant brothers feel good about themselves :). But in all seriousness the only reason why we might be seen as 'hamstrung' is because we don't have the same builds that you do. By your own statement the DA have certain units that mesh well with each other which forces you into somewhat pre-built lists so to speak. Sure you'll have different choices but at the core Deathwing lists for example are the same, kinda like Space Wolves actually, you have a few units that are good, synergize well and they end up forming the core of your army. For C:SM we have to tweak our units a bit to synergize but the plus side is that ALL of our units are able to synergize in this manner, Chapter Traits are either something you take advantage of or something that just provides a little extra bonus for no cost. C:SM lacks that clarity and for good reason to, we have a blank sheet of paper when it comes to list building while you guys have a map of sorts, give us a few months and we'll be churning out all sorts of lists.

 

Just my two cents on the matter.

[march10k]

     at the core Deathwing lists for example are the same,[...] you have a few units that are good, synergize well and they end up forming the core of your army.

 

Just my two cents on the matter.

 

ROFLOL....At the core, a Deathwing list is "allowed" by the fluff Nazis to consist of nothing but terminators, land raiders, and dreadnoughts.  THAT is the reason that all of our armies look the same. 

 

A lascannon devastator squad with a PFG-toting prescience librarian would augment a deathwing list beautifully, but you're unlikely ever to see one.  Ditto a pair of whirlwinds, since DW lacks horde control.  At most, you'll see deathwing "adulterated" by some ravenwing, because thatt's fluffy and the other good options are not.

[TheForgottenAngel]

I played a triple wing list against a new C:SM and while it was close, I wont the day by holding 3 objectives out of 4. He ran Calgar and Tiberius with drop poding tacticals, sternguard, lascannon devestators, rhino with 5man tacticals plasma/combiplas, and terminators. Needless to say Azrael and Sammael won the wargame.

[Terrified Templar]

Ah, I didn't know that the fluff Nazis had gotten such a grip on you guys. Of course you guys are always keeping secrets from the rest of us........

 

Of course though I am not exactly sure why you can't include a pair of whirlwinds or a dev squad in your Deathwing lists (well besides the horde of angry fluff nazis). It's your list and your wallet after all. If you want to see 'unfluffy' just look at a Black Templar gunline list (although I will say they are pretty darn effective).

[FerociousBeast]

It's not Fluff Fascism, it's usually just that many people build their armies with a story in mind, and for some the idea of a 1st Company strike force is very appealing. When you add a Devastator Squad, it's rarely because it fits the story you have in mind, it's usually just because it's useful. Some people like to build for utility, others to "forge the narrative."

[Asmodai Asmodean]

Heresy! It's not a matter of being a fluff nazi, but it hearkens back to the dark days of the 3rd edition Codex where a Deathwing detachment could only include Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts and Terminators. 

[Flake]

What are your thoughts on the Nephilim? The community seems to be of a negative attitude about our fliers mostly because of their points. While I think they are the best looking fliers and will most likely get one if each, how does the nephilim perform for you and what do you mark as it's targets and what do you avoid with it?

If you go back a little bit, you'll find a lot of good threads about the Nephy. My quick two cents is that while I don't play the strictest DW army (I like the first and tenth approach) I try to avoid all power armor when my DW takes the field. The nephilim puts out a lot of dakka at BS5 and that's the support terminators need.

 

I'd like to hear any experiences the rest of you have had against the new C:SM. How have multi wing DA fared?

[facmanpob]

the new C:SM is a trap.

Regardless of anything else, did anyone else think of Admiral Ackbar when they read this line? Bizarrely I thought of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory doing his Admiral Ackbar impression, but that might just be me being weird.

Back OT, I think the new C:SM is actually quite synergistic, and in that way is a codex with the same basic concept as our own. Certain chapter tactics mesh well with certain unit combinations, leading to certain army builds being more powerful. In the same way, certain DA units mesh better other units and with wargear/relic/banner choices, and so become more popular on the table...

[Master Avoghai]

I would add 2 things :

 

- this was not a game against a pure SM army... So finally, if the opponent had gotten more SM and less IG, maybe the power of the army list and the synergy would have been better.

 

- I have a friend who's building a SM army but a totally invented chapter. Original color scheme and all. Thing is that he could perfectly adapt the chapter trait to the army list he want to field. Dread and vehicles? He'll go IH... Lots of footsloggers? Go for UM.

 

CT are rigid if you are rigid... But nothing prevents you to play a WS army with IH's Chapter tactics...

[march10k]

 

 

- this was not a game against a pure SM army... So finally, if the opponent had gotten more SM and less IG, maybe the power of the army list and the synergy would have been better.

 

 

 

That is a good point...IG won't benefit from CT...I guess it depends on what he added.  If he went for veterans and PBS...yeah, marines would have been better.  But I can't think of too many armies that wouldn't be helped by a platoon of guardsmen with nothing but autocannons and chimeras with HM/ML....8 heavy weapons shots from a scoring unit with mobility and AV12 for around 100 points?  Yes, PLEASE!!!!  And the platoon command squad of four meltas in a chimera with a hull heavy flamer?  Also fantastic.  Oh, and a company command squad with a chimera and four BS4 plasma guns?  Also phantastik.  Can we ask for a squadron of proper tanks for the 0-1 heavy support choice?  Or vendetta(s) for fast attack? The only ally FOC slot that the IG can't stuff full of cheese is elites...if you go for the right choices, they're BETTER than points spent on the core list, hands down.  It gets you all of the awesome sauce that's available to IG, without the "suck factor" of "my list is T3 with a 5+ save"

[abraxus]

Ah, I didn't know that the fluff Nazis had gotten such a grip on you guys. Of course you guys are always keeping secrets from the rest of us........

 

Of course though I am not exactly sure why you can't include a pair of whirlwinds or a dev squad in your Deathwing lists (well besides the horde of angry fluff nazis). It's your list and your wallet after all. If you want to see 'unfluffy' just look at a Black Templar gunline list (although I will say they are pretty darn effective).

 

Just take a Deathwing Land Raider Helios.... :)

[Flake]

I would add 2 things :

 

- this was not a game against a pure SM army... So finally, if the opponent had gotten more SM and less IG, maybe the power of the army list and the synergy would have been better.

 

- I have a friend who's building a SM army but a totally invented chapter. Original color scheme and all. Thing is that he could perfectly adapt the chapter trait to the army list he want to field. Dread and vehicles? He'll go IH... Lots of footsloggers? Go for UM.

 

CT are rigid if you are rigid... But nothing prevents you to play a WS army with IH's Chapter tactics...

Aren't SM players required to pick their trait as part of their list building process? I don't think I'd take kindly to any SM player that changed their CT to match their opponents in a tournament setting.

[Master Avoghai]

I think that CT will be fixed for the same tourney ...

 

But nothing will prevent your opponent to change his CT from a game to another as well as he change his army list.

 

So saying that a SM player is sticked to his chapter trait is as wrong as saying that I'm sticked to playing with termi in every game...

[Schultzhoffen]

The codex has been out for a month so not much to read there.

 

See, on the flip side, I run Ultramarines with drop pods and Tigurius - no huge point sinks anywhere (my Stormraven ferries x5 Tac marines and I run x2 AC/Las predators). Every unit in my army is expendable and no loss of any single unit cripples its function.

 

I've won every single game thus far - Imperial Guard, Dark Angels (DW/RW), Daemons, Necrons, Tau and Eldar.

 

Again...simple anecdotal evidence tells us nothing -maybe my opponents were 10 year old neophytes....

 

Edit: Spelling

[march10k]

Ah, I didn't know that the fluff Nazis had gotten such a grip on you guys. Of course you guys are always keeping secrets from the rest of us........

Of course though I am not exactly sure why you can't include a pair of whirlwinds or a dev squad in your Deathwing lists (well besides the horde of angry fluff nazis). It's your list and your wallet after all. If you want to see 'unfluffy' just look at a Black Templar gunline list (although I will say they are pretty darn effective).

Just take a Deathwing Land Raider Helios....

+1

[InstantKarma]

Ah, I didn't know that the fluff Nazis had gotten such a grip on you guys. Of course you guys are always keeping secrets from the rest of us........

 

Of course though I am not exactly sure why you can't include a pair of whirlwinds or a dev squad in your Deathwing lists (well besides the horde of angry fluff nazis). It's your list and your wallet after all. If you want to see 'unfluffy' just look at a Black Templar gunline list (although I will say they are pretty darn effective).

 

The Black Tide 'Horde o' Bolters' ah yes...