DA vs New C:SM; My first impression

[InstantKarma]

I think that CT will be fixed for the same tourney ...

 

But nothing will prevent your opponent to change his CT from a game to another as well as he change his army list.

 

So saying that a SM player is sticked to his chapter trait is as wrong as saying that I'm sticked to playing with termi in every game...

 

I don't know about this.  I wouldn't be to thrilled by an army that is clearly painted to be Imperial Fists suddenly informing me before game that they are in fact Ultras or Salamanders and I think I'd be tempted to call shenanigans on that.

[Flake]

I wouldn't call shenanigans but I might razz them a little bit if their Ultramarines are suddenly White Scars. And even if they do swap CT's between games, they still have to re-do their list to take full advantage. You can make your army suddenly become Iron Hands but if you don't have a lot of vehicles and multi-wound models, you're not doing yourself any favors.

[InstantKarma]

I guessed I'd be more annoyed.

To take perhaps a more extreme example to make my point, you'd call shenanigans if a BA player suddenly delcared he was using our codex or (Emperor forbid!) a DA player suddenly said his army was in fact, Space Wolves !

While I understand these chapters are more 'vanilla' and all within the same dex, I think the principle still applies. I mean shoot, if they're suddenly switching CTs might as well proxy the models to match the CTs (I realize I'm being hyperbolic) they're now using.

[MadMek83]

C:SM is hard codex generally to write. Its far easier to write codex of the chapter's that include only one main force than try to include all in codex while keeping them different from each other other than just paint job. New Codex has done it nicely. Its dang hard to put codex with Ultramarines and Imperial fists and make them differ enough from each other's that you don't feel like playing yellow ultra smurf if you have Imperial Fists but still maintain general coherence so that chapter's wouldn't actually require their own codex. This limitation hits very hard in fluff side some chapters in the codex. Yet its hard to tell much about strength or weakness' of the particular codex yet. But like previous editions: Vanilla's are jack of all trades, master of none. Different chapter tactics won't change that fact. This is shooting edition so vanilla's should still do pretty nicely. With hands of experienced player, they still are fearsome force though.

[Master Avoghai]

I guessed I'd be more annoyed.

To take perhaps a more extreme example to make my point, you'd call shenanigans if a BA player suddenly delcared he was using our codex or (Emperor forbid!) a DA player suddenly said his army was in fact, Space Wolves !

While I understand these chapters are more 'vanilla' and all within the same dex, I think the principle still applies. I mean shoot, if they're suddenly switching CTs might as well proxy the models to match the CTs (I realize I'm being hyperbolic) they're now using.

So if I paint my marine in purple and call them the Ultra Iron Fist chapter I've the right to do so but if they're painted in blue with UM symbol I don't?

[Brother dean]

You Definately dont get to change your chapter tactics between rounds of a tourny, which is where this OT track started....

[InstantKarma]

You Definately dont get to change your chapter tactics between rounds of a tourny, which is where this OT track started....

^ This definately.

I guessed I'd be more annoyed.

To take perhaps a more extreme example to make my point, you'd call shenanigans if a BA player suddenly delcared he was using our codex or (Emperor forbid!) a DA player suddenly said his army was in fact, Space Wolves !

While I understand these chapters are more 'vanilla' and all within the same dex, I think the principle still applies. I mean shoot, if they're suddenly switching CTs might as well proxy the models to match the CTs (I realize I'm being hyperbolic) they're now using.

So if I paint my marine in purple and call them the Ultra Iron Fist chapter I've the right to do so but if they're painted in blue with UM symbol I don't?

I'm not too concerned over 'rights' as people can make up any 'right to anything'. I could understand in a friendly game my opponent tells me in advance he wants to try different CTs even if they are painted as UMs. I am thinking in a more competitive game, or for myself, it's usually a pick up game with a stranger at my local GW. If I see a guy deploying UMs and then he tells me 'Oh hey, they're actually Iron Hands' I just find that suspicious. Why did you paint an army of UMs just to swap out your CTs depending on whoever your opponent is? It could be since I do not proxy models often (if at all) that I tend to be suspicious of players who do. I've had too many instances of someone using something as a proxy for something else and trying to manipulate the rules or take advantage that since it does not look the thing it is proxying, count on you 'forgetting' that it's a proxy. I guess this whole 'CT swapping' looks to me like something running in a similar vane; someone swapping things last second to try and gain and advantage.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Gentlemen.. DA vs "UM" if you please?

[Master Avoghai]

@ instantkarma : I see what you mean but the thing I've pointed out is more complicated that just the opposition of abusing player vs kind guy who goes for a try...

 

First like I've said, the problem comes from the identification and what you expect. You see an UM player so you EXPECT to see him play UM rules. You see a purple/pink/whatever unidentified color army deploying you expect nothing. You wait for your opponent to tell you what chapter trait he will play. So if the 1st one declare he'll play IH, he will appear suspicious but not the second.

 

Then the problem is that codex marine is not a v1 codex of a new game. It's a v6 one of an old game where some players accumulate sometimes huge collections of their favorite army. And when they did so, CT did not exist. What if a raven guard player discover that he's more akin to win with a UM chapter traits because it fits more his kind of play? Would people ask him to re-paint all his models?

 

Moreover, as an owner of almost one battle company + half companies of bikes and termis, I would be pleased to be able to change a little my way of playing and get new rules for that. So if I see a UM player field a full tank army and claim for IH bonus, he can argue that it's "UM tank company traits" and then the battle after bring an army of footsloggers and claim for UM traits.

 

Actually, it doesn't bother me that much because CT efficiency does not depends of the army you're facing but of the army you field. So, when you arrive in your store with a said army for a random opponent game you can't adapt your CT to him.

 

 

But that to say that CT are not rigid like the OT claimed. You can change your CT to fit your kind of play or how you build your army (ie : what you get in your collection). So I don't see any advantages here vs the DA

[march10k]

I don't really think CT allow too many shenanigans.  If I was a C:UM player, I would have developed a play style that's focused on drop pods, bikes, rhinos, devastators, terminators, or whatnot.  And I would DEFINITELY have a DIY chapter.  If I'm going to adopt the fluff of an existing chapter, all of the ones that have their own books are better than the ones in C:UM.  So, with my DIY chapter that looks like storm lords with french blue helmets and boots, I will come into 6th edition with a relatively well established play style and model collection.  I'm going to choose a CT that complements my play style and model collection...and stick with it.  I might buy a few shiny new centurions or AAA tanks if I feel the need, but they're not going to change my play style, and therefore they're not going to corrupt me into rotating between CT choices every other game.

 

I know we have a culture (well-earned!) of assuming the role of the martyr every time a C:UM is released after our new dex has lost some of its novelty value.  This time, I don't think C: DA was a trial run where all of the good ideas were carried over into C:UM, but the bad ideas were discarded, and none of the good stuff was ported back in time to our dex.  I think C:UM is different, but not better or (well, maybe slightly) worse.  It gives you a wide open selection of play styles, and a few shiny toys, but it also lacks a few things that we have.  I'm stunned, for example, that they don't get PFGs.  You may have noticed that they don't get terminators as troops, or venerable land raiders.  By the way, it makes me laugh till my ribs crack to hear the same people who used to think that a 30 point venerable upgrade was fantastic for a 120 point dreadnought now insist that the same 30 points spent to make a 250 point land raider venerable is too expensive.  There are things C:UM gets that we don't, and vice versa.  But I challenge you to tell me what in C:UM is better than black knights.

[Master Avoghai]

By the way, it makes me laugh till my ribs crack to hear the same people who used to think that a 30 point venerable upgrade was fantastic for a 120 point dreadnought now insist that the same 30 points spent to make a 250 point land raider venerable is too expensive.

The reason for that is double :

 

- the venerable dread gains +1BS which can be dreadful if equipped with a MM... Or even a TLLC... Give me BS5 to my LR and I repaint them all in bone! ;)

- with A12 the dread is more likely to roll on the table hence to be worth the investment you made. With A14 it's harder. I recognize that it's even more joyful to see the face of your opponent who finally succeeded to penetrate your LR and explode it when you announce him that he has to reroll but such moment are rare.

[elphilo]

By the way, it makes me laugh till my ribs crack to hear the same people who used to think that a 30 point venerable upgrade was fantastic for a 120 point dreadnought now insist that the same 30 points spent to make a 250 point land raider venerable is too expensive.

The reason for that is double :

- the venerable dread gains +1BS which can be dreadful if equipped with a MM... Or even a TLLC... Give me BS5 to my LR and I repaint them all in bone!

- with A12 the dread is more likely to roll on the table hence to be worth the investment you made. With A14 it's harder. I recognize that it's even more joyful to see the face of your opponent who finally succeeded to penetrate your LR and explode it when you announce him that he has to reroll but such moment are rare.

The best is when they are trying to get a stun result so the Knights inside can't charge the next turn. They get it, celebrate a little and then you tell them to reroll. Oh whats that? You blew it up? And right in front of your uber squad that gets crushed by the Knights? I'm sorry :P :D

[InstantKarma]

@ instantkarma : I see what you mean but the thing I've pointed out is more complicated that just the opposition of abusing player vs kind guy who goes for a try...

First like I've said, the problem comes from the identification and what you expect. You see an UM player so you EXPECT to see him play UM rules. You see a purple/pink/whatever unidentified color army deploying you expect nothing. You wait for your opponent to tell you what chapter trait he will play. So if the 1st one declare he'll play IH, he will appear suspicious but not the second.

Then the problem is that codex marine is not a v1 codex of a new game. It's a v6 one of an old game where some players accumulate sometimes huge collections of their favorite army. And when they did so, CT did not exist. What if a raven guard player discover that he's more akin to win with a UM chapter traits because it fits more his kind of play? Would people ask him to re-paint all his models?

Moreover, as an owner of almost one battle company + half companies of bikes and termis, I would be pleased to be able to change a little my way of playing and get new rules for that. So if I see a UM player field a full tank army and claim for IH bonus, he can argue that it's "UM tank company traits" and then the battle after bring an army of footsloggers and claim for UM traits.

Actually, it doesn't bother me that much because CT efficiency does not depends of the army you're facing but of the army you field. So, when you arrive in your store with a said army for a random opponent game you can't adapt your CT to him.

But that to say that CT are not rigid like the OT claimed. You can change your CT to fit your kind of play or how you build your army (ie : what you get in your collection). So I don't see any advantages here vs the DA

I think that is a much fairer assesment than my own. I'll be first to admit I have a strong bias that does become unreasonable (such as this instance).

Bad memories of a Space Wolves/Salamanders battle in which those two players allied against me and a buddy and then suddenly models that were clearly Bloodclaw bikers were now Thunderwolf Cav (probably why I've drifted towards Dark Angels; clearly the Sons of Russ cannot be trusted )

I apologize for the off topic rant.

[Brother dean]

We've all been there at one time or another (now which one of these identical, armless grey guant squads was the hormaguants and which termaguants?).. Welcome to the domain of the Dark Angels where we are both stubborn and tactically flexible... ( it they are OUR rules and I will adapt to them rather than change my colors..)

[march10k]

By the way, it makes me laugh till my ribs crack to hear the same people who used to think that a 30 point venerable upgrade was fantastic for a 120 point dreadnought now insist that the same 30 points spent to make a 250 point land raider venerable is too expensive.

The reason for that is double :

- the venerable dread gains +1BS which can be dreadful if equipped with a MM... Or even a TLLC... Give me BS5 to my LR and I repaint them all in bone!

- with A12 the dread is more likely to roll on the table hence to be worth the investment you made. With A14 it's harder. I recognize that it's even more joyful to see the face of your opponent who finally succeeded to penetrate your LR and explode it when you announce him that he has to reroll but such moment are rare.

Both of those are valid points. The counter-points that often get overlooked are that 30 points is a much smaller fraction of 250 points than 120 points (relatively, the upgrade costs half as much) and that a land raider with that upgrade is often central/critical to the player's plan on account of being a delivery system for either assault terminators or deathwing knights. Would I slap the upgrade on a mars pattern land raider that's firing godhammers out of my backfield? No! Then again, I wouldn't field a land raider at all unless it's an assault transport for a boatload of smash-face, and if that's the case, well, a walking thundernator is a dead thundernator, so 30 points is a small price to pay for a chance to reroll that catastrophic result.

If the enemy never gets a bad pen, I'm not regretting the "waste" of 30 points, I'm celebrating a victory! OTOH, if I do get a non-DW crusader blown up, I'm thinking that five mounted thundernators are better than six walking ones!

[march10k]

The best is when they are trying to get a stun result so the Knights inside can't charge the next turn. They get it, celebrate a little and then you tell them to reroll. Oh whats that? You blew it up? And right in front of your uber squad that gets crushed by the Knights? I'm sorry

Now...that's just plain mean...but I'm not sure I'd be happy to trade a crusader for ANY enemy squad, especially if I have to blow my smite in the process.

Of course, I have another crusader next door...and ten termies waiting to DWA/VS. I'll take the stun, shoot the bastages with everything, and charge with Belial's retinue...while Belial slips out the side door on his own to tie down that pesky devastator squad in the ADL. :D

[elphilo]

The best is when they are trying to get a stun result so the Knights inside can't charge the next turn. They get it, celebrate a little and then you tell them to reroll. Oh whats that? You blew it up? And right in front of your uber squad that gets crushed by the Knights? I'm sorry

Now...that's just plain mean...but I'm not sure I'd be happy to trade a crusader for ANY enemy squad, especially if I have to blow my smite in the process.

Of course, I have another crusader next door...and ten termies waiting to DWA/VS. I'll take the stun, shoot the bastages with everything, and charge with Belial's retinue...while Belial slips out the side door on his own to tie down that pesky devastator squad in the ADL.

Eh, it was a Necron Wraith Squad, so at the time it was what needed to happen. I didn't want it to blow up, but I didn't want it to be stunned. So I had him reroll and he just so happened to get an explode result. But I guess if you live by the Venerable, you die by the Venerable

Just to note, that Wraith squad wasn't there during his next turn

[Brother dean]

The question is was the knight squad there after the necron shooting next turn...

 

 

Edit:  Probibly was... 3++ is tough...

[elphilo]

They were. It didn't matter much since he took out my scorers :(

[Brother dean]

If you table your opponent then you win...  And I laugh every time my local TO says that....

[march10k]

HAH!  I've never tabled anyone or been tabled, either.  The closest I came was the first game of my first proper tournament...I think it was Games Day Atlanta, circa 2001.  I ended the game with one terminator sergeant, alone and unafraid....well, maybe afraid.  He was hiding from my space pup opponent behind a rock in the corner.  My opponent was furious.  The fact that my survivor was contesting his table quarter denied him the "ZOMG you're a stud" top category of beating my poor @$$....dropping him in the end from 4th place to 17th.  Yes, it was THAT competitive at the top of the leaderboard.

 

My mechanized IG army has had games where not a single boot hit the ground, though, and I consider that pretty impressive (zero destroyed chimeras!  In one game, I didn't lose any models at all, but in most of those "clean boots" games, I lost one or more russes, hellhounds, or sentinels)  That was in 5th, though...in 6th, they have to get out to claim objectives.