d3m01iti0n Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I want to start this post by saying Helbrecht sucks a big one, and I will no longer field him. Anyways...... BLACK TEMPLARS 1850 Helbrecht, HQ Crusader Squad - 10 Ini/10 Neos, SB w/ LCx2, CCW+BP, Axe, Flamer Techmarine, Combi-Grav Crusader Squad - 10 Ini, SB w/ CombiMelt, Bolters, ML, Melta Drop Pod w/ Deathwind Crusader Squad, 10 Ini, SB w/ CombiPlas, Bolters LasCan, Plas Servitors x4, Heavy Bolters Mortis Contemptor, TLAutoCans, CML Typhoon, MM Typhoon, MM Predator, TLLC, LC Sponsons Predator, AutoCan, HB Sponsons Vindicator Aegis w/ Quad Gun ULTRAMARINES (he can pop in and clarify the list better than I) Librarian HQ Tac Squad Tac Squad Sternguard x10 Drop Pod Stormraven, TLLC, MM Stormtalon, TLLC Vindicator Thunderfire Cannon Speeder, MM Legion of the Damned Legion of the Damned Game is Emperor's Will, or whatever its called. The one with only two 3 pt objectives. Smurfs go first, Pod the Sternguard into my backfield. They are intercepted by both my Quad and Contemptor, but only one kill. They do some damage to my objective holding Crusader squad. His backfield stays put. My turn, Pod my Crusader squad into his backfield. Pop his Vindicator. Typhoon and LasPred take some pot shots at a camping Tac squad for a couple kills. The rest of my backfield unloads on the Sternguard squad to wipe them out. Black Tide and bubble-wrapped Vindi roll into midfield. His turn, Raven and Talon come in, as does a squad of LotD. Talon went down early to the Quad gun. Legion proceeds to tear my Pod squad up. Now things get ugly. Raven drops of the dirty witch. Said witch uses Puppet Master on Helbrecht. Fails Deny the Witch. High Marshall Helbrecht chops up some Neophytes. I very nearly flipped the table at this point. The Black Tide did charge the camping Tac squad and wipe em. They then charged the lone Techmarine on the Thunderfire. Decided I would be funny and challenge him with Helbrecht. He killed Helbrecht with his Servo Harness. At this point I pretty much gave up. Helbrecht hasnt done anything of value for me since the update so he's off the table. Ill be rolling Grim or a Marshall from now on. I lost the match but I was happy with my list for the most part. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I have to say that is terribly bad luck, but I'm not actually sure you can challenge the techmarine on a TFC. He is not an ic after all nor can he ever become one. Also fighting a model with a 2+ armor save with someone who isn't AP2 isn't always the best choice. Your Dual LC sword brother would have been better for that as he can re-roll wounds for better odds at getting a rend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Hmm. Puppet Master allows you to shoot at any unit other than your own. Not sure how Helbrecht ended up chopping his own men up. Techmarine Guunners indeed can't challenge. And you shouldn't challenge a model you know has a 2+ armour save that can instant death you when you haven't AP2... Hate to be rude, but your use of Helbrecht is pretty meh. If you want to get the best out of him, stick him in a Land Raider and use him to target enemy infantry, whilst shooting 2+ save models. Other efficiencies could be used to help your list also, but I'd leave that to the experts. Man I just re-read my post and I didn't mean to say "Meh" and it sound so harsh! I do apologise! I wrote it envisaging it being how I would say it to a mate and it comes out different in text! What I should have said was: You use of Helbrecht wasn't to his whole potential. I use a Chapter Master with an AP3 weapon myself and get good mileage out of him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488370 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m01iti0n Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Wasnt aware of that restriction on the Techmarine. I think Helbrecht may have used his Bolter however (he fired the Melta earlier). I used him for the challenge since I figured I had an easy kill. http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_201502_zpsdb372eca.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_201445_zpsd689c46b.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_201434_zps8b46b910.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_201421_zps83b996a3.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_183103_zps721c498d.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_183054_zpsdea9db64.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_183041_zpsac1fa429.jpg http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu211/d3m01iti0n/20131005_183024_zps404bc2a5.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 That's what his Honour Guard (Broadsword brethren!) are for! The Champion gets into those scrapes so Helbrecht doesn't have to! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m01iti0n Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Yeah hes not coming back out until I have an Honor Guard. Grim will run the show from now on. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 Why would a 2+ model ever be an easy kill for a model with an AP3 weapon? Even with Rending it's not entirely reliable. When you had an unit with him for weight of attacks, it wouldn't have been tactically sound to challenge the techmarine even had it been actually possible. Live and learn, I suppose! I hadn't noticed that the gunner no longer becomes an IC if the gun itself is destroyed, though. But of course if the gun was intact the gunner couldn't be challenged in the previous C:SM either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urkh Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 one thing i do notice, that wrecked vehicle with the cotton on it is laying on it's side. page 74 of the BRB says you cant place it that way because it gives more cover or something like that. I also think with his combi melta, Helbrecht might have been better podding in with your crusaders into the backfield. He could then use his AP3 sword to squash those two tactical squads that are back there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488510 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m01iti0n Posted October 7, 2013 Author Share Posted October 7, 2013 Count the ever increasing number of empty PBR cans on my side, should give you an idea as to why I was making tactical errors Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 On a different note, I wonder if flipping the table and thus probably hitting the opponent with it in the process would've been considered "tabling" the opponent? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdeath Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I read Puppet Master as allowing me to be able to focus on one target in specific and use my psi on them. Is this not incorrect? I'm still learning and this was the first time I've really used psychic powers on the table. Me positioning the destroyed vindi that way wasn't any intention on trying to get cover out of it but I know it's time to invest in some crater terrain or something! Thanks for the feedback! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdeath Posted October 7, 2013 Share Posted October 7, 2013 I wasn't happy at all with my lists performance with the exception of the 2 Legion of the Damned squads. Those guys are murder! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488555 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Quick suggestion to Demo, make the Crusaders who dropped in into Tacs and split them up to 2 squads, mitigates casualties and has potential to cause some threat problems to the enemy army after Drop Podding, after all they could only shoot at one squad with one squad :D Grim Death: Read the above regarding the Sternguards as well, a split Sternguard has a bigger potential to wipe a good target, or cause serious casualties to 2 weaker targets than 1 full squad relying on weight of dice... Grimdeath part 2: Pupppet Master is a focussed witchfire attack with a range of 24". you could only target Helbrecht specifically if you rolled a 5 and below during the Psychic Test (other Templar players pay attention to this as well) on a roll of 6 to max leadership value the test is passed but a randomly selected model is chosen instead, so unless you rolled a total of 5 or less Helbrecht could've been free. The poor model targeted by the Psychic power then makes a shooting attack directed by the Psyker owning player into another squad (not the squad the model belongs to. After the shooting attack is resolved the model reeverts back to normal. Now, don't stone me just yet, I just followed Marshal Laeroth's advice: Know thy enemy, young one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdeath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Perfect. I was within 12" of Helbrecht (Dem's whole Crusader Squad vs my poor Librarian) and I rolled a 2 on my test. Helbrecht just took out a scout if I'm not mistaken anyways. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 I wasn't happy at all with my lists performance with the exception of the 2 Legion of the Damned squads. Those guys are murder! What did you like most about them? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdeath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Their special and heavy weapons are cheaper, plus their ranged weapons ignore cover. Plus I like their invul save. Plus the figures look plain awesome! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Don't get discouraged by a loss ;-) Also, Helbrecht isn't great dueling character, but he's good against regular infantry. I would take him if I had multiple close combat squads, since he buffs them quite nice. One or two LRs with terminators/honor guard/vanguards alongside something fast like assault squads and bikers, come close, use Helbrecht's ability and warlord trait, see enemy die. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3488957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasPanzerIstUber Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 it wouldn't have been tactically sound to challenge the techmarine What part of "No Matter The Odds" don't you understand? :lol: I also think an Honour Guard with Champion to absorb 2+ save challenges is the way to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Yeah it seems like Helbrecht is not the right HQ for this list with only one CC squad for his special "DIE!" button to use on it's not as useful. I do think that he is still a good HQ but just for a different type of list. Also, you have a SB in a 20 man Crusader squad. You can only have as many Neo's as Initiates, and the SB is not an Initiate so only 9 neo's for the squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunshineDragon Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Ok I gotta point this out.... Did you put a techie AND a 10-man in the same pod? Or did I read that incorrectly? If I didn't then you fielded and illegal choice as you can only fit 10 in a pod, we never got to use the 12-man version from last marine dex. On another note, was a dual LC sword brother worth it? I want to take a LC on SBs that aren't in the ECs squad but I'm tossing up against -1 atk/+shred vs +1 atk. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdeath Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Nope, techie was in my backfield, i plopped my 10 man sternguard via drop pod into Dem's... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m01iti0n Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 Clarifications: I took 10 Neos with the Crusader/SB Black Tide. One extra, thats my bad. Pod squad was 8 Initiates, 1 SB, one Techy. Wrote it up wrong. Pete you did pull off the Pupper Master roll, but it looks the affected target has to shoot a different unit. There was nobody else around so dont think it was valid. But still funny :P As far as Tac vs Crusader squads (ignoring the fact Im a purist and would be embarrased to run Codex Astartes units), isnt a Crusader squad's loadout much better than Tac? I dropped them for a suicide squad on purpose to take out his Vindi and take fire off my footsloggers. It worked :) Plus weve got a team game this weekend. Im considering running dual LRC/CC squads at 1250. This would be a good role for Helbrecht I think? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489333 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Ok I gotta point this out.... Did you put a techie AND a 10-man in the same pod? Or did I read that incorrectly? If I didn't then you fielded and illegal choice as you can only fit 10 in a pod, we never got to use the 12-man version from last marine dex. On another note, was a dual LC sword brother worth it? I want to take a LC on SBs that aren't in the ECs squad but I'm tossing up against -1 atk/+shred vs +1 atk. A twin claw sword brother is only worth it if you want him to make absolutely sure he will kill his target. Against marines I don't think it's a good call but against enemies that are slower than you (Orks, Tau, Ig) they work out great because you re-roll everything against their characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d3m01iti0n Posted October 8, 2013 Author Share Posted October 8, 2013 That LC Sarge Bro held off his TDA Chaplain for two rounds last game. Yup, hes worth it :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489358 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted October 8, 2013 Share Posted October 8, 2013 Plus weve got a team game this weekend. Im considering running dual LRC/CC squads at 1250. This would be a good role for Helbrecht I think? Two 15-man Crusader squads and Helbrecht in LRCs would be around 1100-1150 pts I think. If you get to charge with both squads at the same time, then it would be brutal (45 attacks with re-rolls to hit and S5 each), just choose your target carefully to take full advantage of amount of attacks. However, you'll lack anti-vehicle firepower and AP2 melee weapons, also, LRs are vulnerable to melta guns. So if your teammate has this covered, I'd say it's going to be fun, not balanced or too effective, but fun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281560-black-templars-vs-ultramarines-1850-rematch/#findComment-3489366 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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