I love Dan Abnett [Spoilers]

[Millicant]

I recently purchased and have almost finished "The Unremembered Empire" by Dan Abnett. I LOVE it, though it follows a ludicrous amount of plot lines from other books and stories. Incrediblely awesome but probably confusing for those who are not up to date with the rest of the series.

 

The reason I love it so much is that it fixes the Dark Angels. I don't know about you, but I absolutely loathe the Gav Thorpe Dark Angels. He ruined their fluff and has left me so disheartened that I figured the First Legion would never get a proper Horus Heresy fluff treatment.

 

Then Mr. Abnett came along and set things right. The book is all about the Ultramarines, specifically dear Roboute, but the Lion and his warriors make a significant appearance. And it is FLAWLESS. Exactly the way I always want to imagine my (our) legion, and the way I have always imagined my (our) Primarch.

 

I cannot sum up all the awesome things, but please go read it. It may just restore your faith, just as it has mine.

 

Thank you, Dan Abnett. You are my hero.

 

 

 

Just a short list of things that are awesome that are in the book:

 

- The Legion has old arcane weaponry

- The 1st Legion is ACTUALLY the first legion founded! Apparently they were around for a while by themselves!!!

- Multiple "wings" that pre-date the destruction of Caliban

- Guilliman talk about how he only looks up to two of his brothers. Horus and Johnson.

- Guilliman says that Horus was proud of being selected Warmaster, but he was most proud of being picked OVER Johnson

- The Lion is secretive, but loyal as a mofo. He goes Macragge to find out if Guilliman is trying to start a new Imperium. And if he is, 20,000 Dark Angels stand ready to crush it.

- Lots more awesome stuff that I can't remember. So great.

 

[skawolf]

I tend to enjoy Abnett novels. Thanks for the heads up. The thought of 20,000 dark angels is really cool.

[[TA]Typher]

Ok... I have to buy this now. If my wife

Yells I'm blaming you!

[facmanpob]

I don't know about you, but I absolutely loathe the Gav Thorpe Dark Angels. He ruined their fluff and has left me so disheartened that I figured the First Legion would never get a proper Horus Heresy fluff treatment.

If you don't mind me asking, which Thorpe stuff are you referring to exactly? His 40K stuff, or the HH short stories that he's written? The reason I ask is that you bring up the whole loyalty issue in your spoiler section, which makes me think you are referring to the whole stink that started when Angels of Darkness was released.

Personally I think that Call of the Lion and The Lion are both excellent short stories (haven't read By the Lion's Command yet).

Edit - Oh, and before you pan Gav Thorpe too much, item 6 on your spoiler list (i.e. one of the major plot lines) was set in motion by Gav Thorpe in the short story The Lion

[Damion38x]

Ooi!! Facman! Stop Praising the 'Thorpe'! (sorry buddy couldent resist!)

Yes he's written some "good" DA stuff... but overall i agree with Millicant! (Deja vu - havent we been down this discussion already)

I think some other authers *Cough*A-D-B*Cough* may have done our legion more justice!....BUT..... having said that whats done is done, and we could have been portrayed worse! As with most things we probably will get other writers coming along and adding bits that we may or may not like - but each of us has thier own opinion of what our legion should/should not be.

[InstantKarma]

I love all the spoilers, just perfect fluff indeed!

[facmanpob]

Hehe.... no worries mate

So far in the heresy novels, the DA have been written by 5 different writers iirc - Scanlon, Lee, Thorpe, A D-B and Abnett.

Gav Thorpe's contributions have been 3 short stories/novellas (Call of the Lion, The Lion, By the Lion's Command)

A D-B has 2 short stories (Savage Weapons, Prince of Crows)

The other 3 writers each have a novel

Out of all of the above, I actually fail to see what Gav Thorpe has done wrong. His writing of the Lion/DA mirrors that of A D-B in Savage Weapons and PoC, and actually restores the shonky way that the DA were written in the books by Scanlon and Lee. In Descent of Angels the Lion's motives for sending Luther and Zahariel and the rest back to Caliban are not explored at all, it simply happens in the last couple of pages leaving the reader confused as to why this brilliant mind has randomly turned into a moody emo, and Fallen Angels doesn't explore the reasoning much either. It's almost as if Mitchel Scanlon couldn't work out how to properly write about a Primarch losing faith in his closest friend and mentor, and Mike Lee just accepted that the act of sending Luther back to Caliban had happened on someone else's watch so he didn't have to go there. Interestingly enough, Thorpe's short story Call of the Lion which is set chronologically in between those two novels, actually does more to highlight the Lion's increasing mistrust of his subordinates (by having Belath effectively chaperoning Astelan and reporting back to Command) without The Lion even being in the story.

Now, if the issue is with Gav Thorpe's 40K DA, then I can't answer that until the OP responds to whether or not his dislike of Gav Thorpe is based around Angels of Darkness or not. If it is, I would direct him to this thread, http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281630-wow-i-missed-that-one/ where it is discussed form about post 20 onwards.

just my tuppence

[Eternal Warrior]

I liked decent of angels but fallen angels left me sad. I now have to get this and add it to the two leadership books I am reading at the moment. Could I please get a list of the books that fix fallen angels in order so I may be inspired again? Thank you guys.

[Millicant]

Hey there,

 

So I should follow up on my assertations here before I make anybody mad.

 

Gav Thorpe took the brunt of my anger due to the parallel 40k books about the Ravenwing, which were also awful. He, in fact, is not the worst perpetrator of ruining the Dark Angels fluff. To me all of the current authors share that terrible burden. I have always been extraordinarily disappointed with the representation of my beloved legion and only now, having read Dan Abnett's version, am I able to admit it out loud.

 

That being said, I have to admit that I think part of the problem is that the Dark Angels are extremely hard to depict in a vacuum. Meaning, they only become unique when set against (or alongside) another legion. And what better backdrop than the exalted Ultramarines and the words of their very Primarch!

 

Writing about the First from inside their ranks must be hard. (Snarky aside - why else would all their stories be garbage?) A writer cannot simply say "the Dark Angels are tactically brilliant and respected across the galaxy. Their Primarch is hailed as one of the greatest." It would sound totally self-aggrandizing and lame. Now if another primarch says it... Then we begin to have legitimacy. Then the things that we know about our legion come to life.

 

I should not have focused on Gav Thorpe. He is far and away my least favorite Black Library author (at least currently), but he is not solely to blame for the current demise of the Dark Angels representation in fiction. That being said, he shares the guilt of many, and I was so excited about this book because it reversed the ongoing onslaught of unbearable, untrue, and unrepentantly bad Dark Angels fiction.

[facmanpob]

Hey there,

So I should follow up on my assertations here before I make anybody mad.

Gav Thorpe took the brunt of my anger due to the parallel 40k books about the Ravenwing, which were also awful. He, in fact, is not the worst perpetrator of ruining the Dark Angels fluff. To me all of the current authors share that terrible burden. I have always been extraordinarily disappointed with the representation of my beloved legion and only now, having read Dan Abnett's version, am I able to admit it out loud.

That being said, I have to admit that I think part of the problem is that the Dark Angels are extremely hard to depict in a vacuum. Meaning, they only become unique when set against (or alongside) another legion. And what better backdrop than the exalted Ultramarines and the words of their very Primarch!

Writing about the First from inside their ranks must be hard. (Snarky aside - why else would all their stories be garbage?) A writer cannot simply say "the Dark Angels are tactically brilliant and respected across the galaxy. Their Primarch is hailed as one of the greatest." It would sound totally self-aggrandizing and lame. Now if another primarch says it... Then we begin to have legitimacy. Then the things that we know about our legion come to life.

I should not have focused on Gav Thorpe. He is far and away my least favorite Black Library author (at least currently), but he is not solely to blame for the current demise of the Dark Angels representation in fiction. That being said, he shares the guilt of many, and I was so excited about this book because it reversed the ongoing onslaught of unbearable, untrue, and unrepentantly bad Dark Angels fiction.

Aha, cool, i understand where you are coming from.

I get why you don't like the 40k DA books, they aren't necessarily everyone's cup of tea. Personally I quite like them, but they aren't high literature or anything

With regard to the Heresy stuff, I think it's generally been improving for the DA. Descent of Angels wasn't a bad book per se, it just wasn't really a Dark Angels book. Too much time was spent on a backstory on Caliban that didn't really help us understand Jonson's character, and developed two main characters (Nemiel and Zahariel) without ever going anywhere concrete with them. Those 200 or so pages could more effectively have been written as intermittent flashbacks (taking up about 50 pages), leaving more room for exploring what the First Legion went through during the Crusade that led the Lion to lose faith in some of his little brothers. As for the last chapter of the book, well, there was about 50 pages of character development, plot, drama and exposition missing, replaced with "and then the Lion randomly sent a load of people back to Caliban without the reader understanding any of his motivations".

Fallen Angels was better than DoA, but still not great, but there has been a steady improvement, not only in the writing, but also in the characterisation of the Legion through the short stories and culminating in Dan Abnett's take on the DA.

I agree with your point about self-aggrandisement, and its interesting that it happens a lot in DoA, and gradually less as the series progresses. Again to your point about existing within a vacuum, the DA writing has improved as the First have been juxtaposed against a backdrop of other Legions.... Death Guard and Iron Hands in The Lion, Night Lords in Savage Weapons and Prince of Crows and now the Ultras in UE.

So, overall, while I understand and to some extent share your pain, I think the rot in the heresy First Legion writing was reversed earlier than you give it credit for, and actually occurred on your least favourite author's watch

Here's hoping for better and better as the series progresses

As Jonson says in The Lion, "It has fallen to me to be the scale upon which history will be balanced."

[Cactus]

To add to the list of First Legion awesomeness in Unremembered Empire...

 

 

While the Lion is parleying with Roboute on Macragge he has 400 drop pods loaded and ready to launch on Macragge's capital city.

 

[Eternal Warrior]

There are no half measures. Was this parlay with the ultras before our after the heresy? I guess before as the battle between the Lion and Luther (spit) took him out of action.... What is the timeline from the heresy unfolding to the Lion uncovering Luther's (Emperor curse his name) betrayal?

[Cactus]

The Lion doesn't return to Caliban until after the Heresy.

[FerociousBeast]

Abnett did offer the best characterization of the Dark Angels and their primarch in the series so far. And maybe the best since Deathwing back in the 90s. So thank you Abnett for that!

 

However, do keep in mind this is an Ultramarines book, not a Dark Angels book, so it's really only the Lion who gets any airplay. Also, the Keystone Kops tradition inaugurated with Angels of Darkness is still proudly on display here.

 

I don't know how to do spoilers on my phone, so...

 

SPOILER ALERT!!!

 

ABANDON ALL HOPE OF SURPRISES YE WHO READ ON FROM HERE!!!

 

...the entire conflict in the novel is set up by a knuckle headed unforced error by the Lion that even a 12 year old could see coming, and that could have been easily avoided by simply not putting his flagship in low orbit. DUH!!!!

 

Also I was very disappointed to see what looked like a very promising subplot in the HH series erased, namely the Lion's very sensible suspicion of Guilliman's efforts to create a second Imperium. The rationale for Imperium Secundus is very flaky indeed, yet no one really offers any objections to the scheme. Huge missed opportunity and frankly unconvincing.

 

I have other issues with the novel, but these are the main ones that deal with the Lion.

[Phoebus]

I second some of the earlier complaints.

 

I don't think Gav's Lion necessarily follows Aaron's Lion. There is certainly a continuation of a storyline, but not necessarily of the characterization.

 

Aaron's Lion was brooding, melancholic, but noble. He had valid reasons for being brooding and melancholic, though. He didn't behave in ways that would defy logic (and make it impossible to be a commander of millions of individuals) to satisfy a poorly-stated plot device.

 

Gav's was murderously violent and potentially even unhinged, depending on how you read some passages. He continued on with themes of paranoia that, again, didn't make sense to begin with (or, at any rate, couldn't always be reconciled with the behavior he and Mike Lee wrote for the character) and moral ambiguity. I get the latter of the two; that theme was Gav's baby going back to "Angels of Darkness", and I guess he wanted to keep it going somehow.

 

Dan seems to have ignored the paranoia theme altogether, and chose instead to focus on Aaron's contribution. He showed us a Lion who most definitely plays his cards close to his chest and certainly doesn't trust people unconditionally... but is definitely able to reason with others, has an emotional range, etc. Astute readers will note that Guilliman and the Lion don't just exchange banter for the sake of banter as is the case with so many other novels (wherein no one's mind is changed; the Primarch is simply affirming his stance to us, the readers). The Lion seems profoundly affected by Guilliman's heartfelt statements and direct honesty.

 

Dan's Lion, I think, is the closest to the classic "Lion El'Jonson" shown in the oldest fluff: mercurial, quick to anger, but loyal and committed to those he calls friend.

 

To be fair, though, both Dan and Gav have succeeded in, as FB mentioned, making the Lion commit laughable gaffes. The Lion's choices with the Iron Hands and Death Guard in "The Lion" are no worse, for instance, than his handling of Curze in "The Unremembered Empire".

[Captain Semper]

Damn, I need to read to the Unremembered Empire...

 

I beleive that the only unforgivable gaffe that the Lion was ever depicted making was in Fallen Angels. A completley uncalled for act that cancelled his entire personality in a couple of pages... Trusting, naive and ambitious beyond anything that has gone before (or thankfully after...)

 

For the record, I am a big fan of the Gav's work - I really like the way he depicts DAs and the Lion in both Angels of Darkness and the Call of the Lion. The Lion in the Primarchs anthology also did not dissapoint (at least me). The Lion is not a benevolent leader as Guilliman is for example. He shares some traits (considered strategist) but he's also autocratic and not to be questioned. When he killed Nemiel was one of the best moments in HH series for me... Yes, the Lion is difficult to like. for those that see

 

Now, I have the greatest respect for ADB and I think that his depiction of the Lion in Prince of Crows was just amazing. Abnett has yet to write anything to dissapoint so I look forward for Unremembered Empire.

[facmanpob]

My take on the Nemiel issue.....

The Lion vs Nemiel

The Lion values loyalty and pragmatism above all else in himself and his 'little brothers'..... "Did it work?" is a line that Corswain utters at one point, entirely summing up the approach to war and nature of the First Legion in one pithy line!

Nemiel, as a Chaplain, espouses dogmatic adherence to ritual and procedure, the antithesis of the First Legion's approach to war.

I see the scene where Nemiel 'loses his head' ( ) as the culmination of many years of Nemiel questioning and ritualising things as part of being in the Chaplaincy, until finally the Lion has had enough. Almost as if he is thinking "even in the face of certain death that dogmatic idiot refuses to see sense". Unable to simply banish him back to Caliban due to time constraints and the nature of the mission, he 'deals with him' in an alternate manner.

This, in my mind, is entirely consistent with the Lion, and the Order in general, throwing out many of the old traditions and dogma of the knightly orders of Caliban, such as noble birth being a requirement for entry rather than ability, is also consistent with Lord Cypher not joining the Crusade, and Master Remiel's discourse on the nature and utility of tradition in Chapter One of Descent of Angels.

All of the above, for me at least, only serves to increase the juxtaposition between what the First Legion once was to what the Dark Angels and Unforgiven in general have become, slaves to dogma and ritual rather than using ritual and tradition as a form of social cohesion.

They've always been secretive though......

[Terrahawk]

To be perfectly honest, I hate the Nemiel decapitation with a passion. It almost ruined the whole short story for me, and doesn't really fit with the way I see the Lion or the Dark Angels. I can appreciate that others might like it though.

 

The Unremembered Empire however, totally nailed the Lion for me. I found it consistent with AD-B's Lion and the way he has been portrayed in studio material. Both of which have been the main sources for the way I personally see the Lion. I think the Lion really stole the stage in this book, radiating silent charisma and nobility, while also being a complete bad ass.

 

When he's talking to Warsmith Dantioch, and says mostly to himself "Wait, why am I even talking to you?" made me chuckle.

 

The Unremembered Empire is highly recommended to all DA fans, the parts with the Lion and the 1st Legion are definitely worth it.

[Balthamal]

The main gripe I've always had regarding the portrayal of the Lion is just a basic lack of consistency. Before UE, he'd been tackled by 4 different authors, an insane number when you think of it considering the other Primarchs have been dealt with by 2 or 3 at most and even in those cases the authors have tended to follow on what has gone before (not counting Kyme's version of Curze which was hideous).

 

I've always preferred ADB's take because he focused on the fact that although he might be suspicious of everything and everyone and therefore act accordingly, he still has nobility and loyalty. That and the fact that he describes him as a sublime duelist, which would tie in nicely with a knightly theme.Oh and "The Knight-Lord of Caliban"? Stuff that down your throat Warmaster Horus Lupercal. Best title given to the Primarchs hands down.

 

Now to Dan's version. Firstly, the Lion, as the Hunter. Perfect. People tend to gloss over the fact he spent his early years having to do this to survive. Plus he locked Curze in the bowels of his ship and went in after him. +10 Man Points. Next, the supreme strategist. He didn't know what Gulliman was doing, but he considered it all and made his plans accordingly. He had 20,000 warriors loaded into pods ready for his command. He knew that would gut Macragge and was taking no chances. Finally, the logical thinking. One of the oldest bits of fluff we have about him is his tendency to think every situation through logically before acting at all and it shows. He knows logically that he has to tell Gulliman about Curze when he's loose just as he logically understands that Gulliman is actually trying to do what's best for the Imperium (at least with the info they have at the time)

 

Fingers crossed anyone tackling him in the future builds on what ADB/DA have put out there rather than putting their own spin on it for the sake of trying something different. It ain't broke. Don't fix it

[Phoebus]

Well said, Balthamal.

 

Ultimately, it comes down to how you like your Lion. Mike and Gav ultimately went for a "damaged Primarch" theme, wherein isolation and resultant problems have negatively shaped the Lion's psychological profile and personality. You guys know my thoughts about how that was executed. Dan* seems to have gone for a character that was certainly influenced by his upbringing, but is ultimately being pragmatic when he keeps his cards so close to himself. I feel much more comfortable with his efforts. I feel this is the Lion that best reflects the "anti-'Jungle Book'/Tarzan-esque" childhood, the formative years and education under an egalitarian knighthood, the mindset that must be adopted by a warlord, the classically imperfect sense of personal honor that would lead to petty fisticuffs and a rivalry with another Primarch, but also the noblesse-oblige that would see him "take it easy" on a Space Wolf who has to challenge him for his own Legion's honor's sake.

 

Is Dan's Lion decidedly less dark? Sure. He's no less nuanced, though, and - in my humble opinion - makes much more sense.

 

Semper, I thought Dan also did a very good job of handling the theme of ambition in the conversation between the Lion and Guilliman, regarding themselves, Horus, the office of Warmaster, and what each of them thought about it. I won't spoil it for you, but I think you'll really enjoy it.

 

* Again, I feel credit for this should also be given to Aaron. I'm unconvinced that the rest of the authors would have tried as he did to rediscover the Calibanite knight that the core of who the Lion is.

[FerociousBeast]

I like the Lion in UE. I think that's a pitch-perfect representation. My only problem, as mentioned before, is that the entire conflict in the novel comes about due to the Lion's silly blunder. 

 

So we can add bringing Curze into low orbit around Macragge to his impressive list of facepalms:

• Sending the Calibanites home to Caliban with no explanation or discernible reason in Descent of Angels
• Giving Perturabo the siege cannon in Fallen Angels
• Ragequitting Nemiel in The Lion
• Setting Curze loose on Macragge in Unremembered Empire.

Am I forgetting any?

[Phoebus]

Not really, though I don't see giving the siege engines to Perturabo as a blunder.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I don't see it as a blunder on Macragge...he was actually fully prepared to wipe out the world if necessary and leaving your ship in a weaker position to facilitate that would allow RG more time to act.

 

As it was, Curze is just very good at stuffing things up.

[Phoebus]

I think FB is simply referring to the Lion basically failing to contain Curze on the Invincible Reason.

 

And, honestly, I agree with him. It doesn't take a genius to figure out a dozen different ways the Lion could have killed him above and beyond the thematic "hunter" approach (which, honestly, was written quite nicely).

 

On a different note, while Curze's trademark terror tactics are masterfully written, the way he showed up and accomplished all that he did ruined my suspension of disbelief. He essentially had to become invincible for the novel's duration for his angle to work out.

 

The irony of it all is that Dan used far more realistic devices to insert THREE OTHER different characters in Macragge!

[FerociousBeast]

Curze is a primarch. The Lion assuming that he can leave a spaceship--full of drop pods and thunderhawks--and expect an enemy primarch to stay put is assuming entirely too much. In fact, there's a part in the story where Curze, as soon as he feels the ship translate into real space, gets all excited because he knows his imprisonment is at an end.

 

Regarding Curze being invincible, it is very annoying, but also understandable when you remember that he is virtually the only bad guy in the story. Protagonists: Ultramarine Legion, Dark Angel Legion, "Oh my God, they killed" Vulkan, Macragge PDF, scattered remnants of loyalist legions. Antagonists: Curze. If you want a good story, the antagonists have to at least equal the protagonists. Therefore, Curze needed a pretty big buff...

 

Of course, as the (presumable) master of the story, there was no reason Abnett had to set up such an annoying situation.