Why no 20 sisters squad?

[hallodx]

Hi, all. Because the recent rumor of sisters I had my eyes on the old WDex and browsed some army lists, and came a question: why no one deploy a Battle Sister Squad with 20 sisters?

I think they would be a solid backbone if joined by a naked Canoness. They can foot slog and shoot everything in their way into bee hives, and can hold until adds from Saint if charged. But for now I haven't seen anyone play, or at least list write this way, why? Is it because number of special weaopns?

[Wraith776]

well I don't play sisters, but i think a naked canoness would be very off-putting

[daboarder]

the same reason nobody runs 20 man chaos marine squads....to many points, too easy to kill, non-linear scaling in the squad efficiency. the specials do the heavy lifting, at 10 you get 2 at 20 you get 2, and even if you did get 4 you'd not likely ever get them all into effective combat range.

[hallodx]

I though nobody run PA troop CSM! lol

Ok seriously, because I only buy canoness for stubborn, a 20 girls squad is a unmovable block IMO. It can force opponent to choose his target, or it would be a big pain see them just walk here and there and dump bolter shells and melta heat. This way they also protected other expert units, like Dominion and Retributors from enemy fire.

Just a thought, or maybe it's already tested useless?

[daboarder]

you know what happens when a leman russ, demolisher, riptide, hammerhead. basilisk, heldrake, waveserpent takes to the field......

 

20 3+ saves are far from "immovable"

[hallodx]

Ok, not immovable. My bad. But we still have 6++, and maybe we can get other fire support from IG or whatever like exorcist before they move out of cover. They are not alone! Even so they can still be a good obj taker or denier, isn't that still not enough to make it worth taking?

[daboarder]

not really. and no they are not a good objective camper, if you can't do it with 10 sisters find something cheaper.

[hallodx]

okay...come on new digital dex! show us some real point reduction!

[WarriorFish]

Don't forget not very mobile either, I think most agree that if you want larger squads something like 14 or so is a good number. Give you some extra boots and bolters without big drawbacks. More units is always preferable as it gives you more options and flexibility, and 10 Sisters is usually durable enough - especially with support from more units.

[Fibonacci]

There are some people that use a large squad.  I usually don't for the very simplistic reason that only 10 fit in a Rhino.

[Onisuzume]

I think that the number of special weapons weighs quite a bit yes.

As for transports, I don't really believe in them unless they're orbital landers, making the squad size mostly irrelevent.

 

I do think that larger squads would be more favoured if we'd have something like the Dark Angels' friendship standard or the HH Fury of the Legion special rule.

[Fibonacci]

 As for transports, I don't really believe in them unless they're orbital landers, making the squad size mostly irrelevent.

 

I depend on mobility too much to go without. 

 

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I think Rook likes to use a large squad.  Maybe he will show up and give his take on how they work.  It would be nice to hear from someone that has some table experience with them about their strengths/weaknesses.

[RookBartly]

I run them on occasion for larger games to hold objectives.  stick a few flamers in them.

[Fibonacci]

And there he is :)

[WarriorFish]

I've never used more than two larger squads and that was only in larger games. Worked well though because the meta was huge on vehicles at the time so a large infantry force just marched over everything dispensing the Emperor's justice without pause. They've always been about the additional bodies more than anything and as has been mentioned there is diminishing returns. Not taken a large squad for ages as I use smaller, cheaper squads now and make the most of the additional manoeuvrability it gives the army.

Just curious, what counts as "table top experience" Fibonacci?

[Naminé]

When I use a full squad of 20 I either keep it cheap and cheerful with 2x Stormbolters and a heavy, or I go all out and make it a deathstar.  I have never had a unit of 20 die, but I have had one almost run off the board once.  They are great for sitting on an objective or steamrollering forward, either way they tend to do well on their own, so denying a flank if need be.

 

I can't say it's any better or worse then units of 10, just... different.  It depends on what you're trying to do with the rest of your army as to which will serve you better.

[hallodx]

A friend told me: because painting another 10 sisters with bolter is boring.

Ok, that's unexpected...

Sorry for interrupt...Go on, please.

[tvih]

I plan on just using 10, indeed because of the special weapons. Too bad there are no combi-weapon models, would add that extra bit of shootiness to have one as a Superior.

[andrewm9]

I plan on just using 10, indeed because of the special weapons. Too bad there are no combi-weapon models, would add that extra bit of shootiness to have one as a Superior.

The Sister Superior with a power maul looks like it could have a combi weapon and the old canoness model has a combi flamer.

[WarriorFish]

Combi-flamer model is good, and don't forget the new plastic Marine combi-weapons for converting purposes :)

[Fibonacci]

Just curious, what counts as "table top experience" Fibonacci?

Actually played a few games with them; unlike me who has only fielded a block of 15 maybe twice. I can speculate but I have not used them enough to be able to use them effectively.

Too bad there are no combi-weapon models, would add that extra bit of shootiness to have one as a Superior.

The Sister Superior with a power maul looks like it could have a combi weapon and the old canoness model has a combi flamer.

Grenade girl is easy to convert since the bolter is held down and away. The model holding the bolter out one handed is also easy to convert. The later is sold individually so you can get as many as you need. My two combi-melta superiors are from the powersword superiors. It takes a little more cutting since the bolter's magazine is attached to the knee but still not to bad to work with.

[WarriorFish]

So, most the people posting in this topic then and not just Rook then?

[tvih]

The Sister Superior with a power maul looks like it could have a combi weapon and the old canoness model has a combi flamer.

Grenade girl is easy to convert since the bolter is held down and away. The model holding the bolter out one handed is also easy to convert. The later is sold individually so you can get as many as you need. My two combi-melta superiors are from the powersword superiors. It takes a little more cutting since the bolter's magazine is attached to the knee but still not to bad to work with.

Andrew makes an interesting point about the maul model (which I bought, 'cause it's cool). I hadn't realized it before, but it indeed doesn't seem to be a regular bolter, there's clearly an attachment. It doesn't really look like any particular combi-weapon when you compare to more recent models. I suppose it'd probably make the most sense as a combi-melta. That does make it a slightly expensive superior though, with having two weapon upgrades. Also adds to the coolness, though

I was considering cutting the bolter from the one aiming it one-handed. I'd just need to manage to do it so that it doesn't get too damaged to use so I can put it back if needed. Problem is I don't really have extra combi-weapons, my marines tend to use them all up. With the possible exception of combi-flamers, but 10 points for a single-use regular flamer is a bit meh. I suppose it'd be possible to make one or two weapons modular (using the old marine arms so that the hand is part of the arm and not the weapon) so that it'd be "transferable" between a marine and a Sister... but might just be easier to try and make a custom combi-weapon. I guess I'll figure something out eventually.

The "grenade girl" (who is such a cool model, obviously, and I'm glad my order came with one) seems a bit too much work and risky to convert. And the bolter certainly wouldn't be salvageable.

The old canoness doesn't really help since she's no longer around. Plus as said I'd rather have a non-flamer combi. It'd also be nice to have a combi for the current canoness model, but that'd require casting a new forearm since I don't want to mess with the pistol arms.

[WAR]

Don't forget not very mobile either, I think most agree that if you want larger squads something like 14 or so is a good number. Give you some extra boots and bolters without big drawbacks. More units is always preferable as it gives you more options and flexibility, and 10 Sisters is usually durable enough - especially with support from more units.

 

I agree that for some reason when I field squads of 15 compared to 13-14 it does not do as much but default if I'm not taking a rhino I usually go 13 as it a point difference ...currently

[Fibonacci]

It looks like we will be getting 2 special weapons in a 5 woman squad now!  :D

Squad size will be 5 to 20.  Still 12 points each.  120 points for a squad of 10 or 130 points for 9 Sisters and a Veteran Superior now.  It will certianly help with fielding lots of troops in a double FOC game.