How do I know if it's fake?

[Valkyrion]

I bought some FW bits on ebay the other day - Land Speeder Tempest, FW Apothecaries, Games Day Blood Angel Captain and the Space Sharks Captain - all for £40.

 

I want to resell both captains, but having assembled the apothecaries yesterday I noticed the resin was very soft. The bodies seemed fine but the chainsword and other gubbins didn't even snap, they just bent. However, on the Space Sharks captain the bendy bits seem sturdy.

 

The resin also looks different, it's white rather than grey.

 

The gamesday BA captain and the apothecaries were both still on sprues - the BA even has 'games workshop limited' on it, but nothing came in it's own box.

 

I don't want to resell fake stuff, so how can I tell?

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Were the models used or somesuch, to explain the low price (a Tempest alone is almost 40 pounds, after all)? If they're all new quality, I'd guess they're recasts, unless the seller was incredibly desparate for quick cash or didn't know their actual worth. Having "Games-workshop LTD" on the sprue simply indicates that the sprue was recast along with the bits.

 

I don't think much can be determined from the resin type, though, apparently Forgeworld uses (and switches up) several different resin formulas?

[Lucien Eilam]

Finecast is never white. I vaguely remember Forge World using white resin for some components way back in the day, but not for years now. The Tempest might be old enough for that, but not the rest.

 

White Finecast pretty much guarantees the entire collection is recast.

 

GW have a policy of reimbursing postage costs and replacing counterfeits with the real thing if you report recasting. The details are in the Legal section linked at the bottom of the online store.

[Toxichobbit]

I'm not sure you can, at least not from that description. I've had FW resin that is bendy and FW resin that is white. In fact, about 6 years ago I got two Cadian upgrades sprues (one with standard heads, one with respirator heads) in the same order. One was in white resin and one was in grey resin and I seem to recall one of the swords (white resin one I think) was a bit bendy. Both were bought directly from FW. Basically FW have used different resins with different properties in the past and may still do so.

 

Ultimately the only way to know if something is fake is if you bought it from FW or GW itself. Even the quality of the cast is no confirmation, as i've had casts direct from FW that would be put to shame by any fake. All it takes is one person not contacting FW customer services about a piece for it to get into the market. Does it really matter if the stuff is fake when selling on ebay? If it's all good quality (details are sharp, very few bubbles and no holes), then personally I don't think the origin is that important. If it's a good quality fake it'll look just as good when painted and you can always sell it without the FW tag. I'm sure the buyer will be happy if they get a good quality miniature that they can use, regardless of it's origin.

 

I can understand not wanting to support people making fake FW stuff for profit and wanting to support FW themselves (I buy almost exclusively from FW when it comes to their parts for this reason), but it's not like your making the stuff and selling it. Your just selling on some unwanted parts and imo, you shouldn't be worrying too much about their origin when it comes to recouping costs in this way.

 

That being said, the bendy sword does sound suspect. I've had FW stuff that is slightly bendy, but I don't know if it's as bendy as you seem to be describing. If you could get some photos with all of the pieces together in natural light, that might make it easier to determine if any are fake or not.

[Valkyrion]

The suspicious thing is that each piece was the same colour. I've had almost yellow resin before from FW so I appreciate there are different shades.

 

The order came from Greece from a guy with good feedback and I was high bidder. They do look in good condition, but I was surprised by the number and intensity of the mould lines.

The body of the LST is one piece, but the mould line must have been 1mm thick right around it. It took some shifting anyway.

[Lucien Eilam]

Yeah, well, you know what they say about Greeks bearing gifts. Dodgy as hell. Get it reported and hopefully Forge World will send you some real ones.

[Kales]

put up some pics so we can have a look, not had a great deal of stuff from FW, mainly due to the price, cant afford it, but what I have had has been generaly grey to white and the mould lines on some bits can be huge, my vulture had a massive block of resin i had to hack off the back of the cockpit.

[Toxichobbit]

Yeah, well, you know what they say about Greeks bearing gifts. Dodgy as hell. Get it reported and hopefully Forge World will send you some real ones.

 

That's a huge assumption there. The OP has no idea if this is fake or not. He could be reporting a perfectly legitimate seller and causing FW/ebay to waste their time investigating. Stuff should only be reported if someone is 100% sure it's fake. If your unsure, just don't buy from that person again.

[Lucien Eilam]

That's a huge assumption there. The OP has no idea if this is fake or not. He could be reporting a perfectly legitimate seller and causing FW/ebay to waste their time investigating. Stuff should only be reported if someone is 100% sure it's fake. If your unsure, just don't buy from that person again.

Bull:cuss. There's no such thing as white Finecast. Finecast isn't the same as Forge World resin. That specific collection all being in white resin 100% guarantees it didn't come from Lenton.

 

Search for those Marines on eBay, and notice how oddly enough, nobody else ever seems to have got a white one.

[Valkyrion]

 

Yeah, well, you know what they say about Greeks bearing gifts. Dodgy as hell. Get it reported and hopefully Forge World will send you some real ones.

 

That's a huge assumption there. The OP has no idea if this is fake or not. He could be reporting a perfectly legitimate seller and causing FW/ebay to waste their time investigating. Stuff should only be reported if someone is 100% sure it's fake. If your unsure, just don't buy from that person again.

Quite. Also, the guy who sold it might not know it was fake in the first place. It was listed as 'Forgeworld Space Marines Lot' with this description;

 

Please read ALL of the following:

The item was bought on the Internet some time ago.

It comes without any base(s) or original packing.

I’m a re-seller and NOT familiar with the game this item concern, so I cannot help you if this is an authentic or not. I try to take good pictures as possible, so look closely to the picture because, what you see is what you will get.

The tags of the models are removed due to sudden increase of the P&P costs and the weight.

The item may contain air bubbles which can be filled with modelling putty.

This is not a toy; it is suitable for ages of 14+.

Payment within three (3) days after auction ends.

If you don’t agree with any of the above don’t bid.

 

I'll just keep them. They might come in handy one day.

 

To be honest, I didn't even read that description at the time, although the 'authentic or not' caveat seems a bit iffy now...

 

Edit again - the pictures on the listing are not what I received. It's fake. I'll try and figure out some pictures.

[Lucien Eilam]

A bit iffy? Want to buy a bridge?

[Valkyrion]

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/Forgeworld-Space-Marines-1-Lot-/00/s/NjM1WDc1MA==/z/tfcAAMXQ4YtSN-xl/$(KGrHqN,!qEFItwhi8mIBSN-)lO4Pw~~60_12.JPG

 

this is the ebay listing picture

 

http://i39.tinypic.com/260ygsn.jpg

 

This is mine. Ignore the broken bit, I've just done that.

Notice around the bolter arm there is a lot more flash on mine, in fact it's caked in it, so the 'what you see is what you get' isn't true.

[Lucien Eilam]

Yeah, that is not Finecast. Also check out how many other completed listings of white resin GW stuff that guy has sold, all with warnings about filling air bubbles with modelling putty. Bit weird for a reseller with no knowledge of the game, eh? And he claims he has no packaging, yet half his photos are sitting on Forge World branded baggies.

 

Bang to rights. On the plus side, if Forge World replace them for you, the stuff you don't want sold separately should see you coming out well ahead.

[Valkyrion]

I've gone through his feedback today - all the negative and neutral states the same thing, that's all recast and clearly not FW.

 

So what now? I've assembled the LST and the Apothecaries. I haven't left feedback yet - do I contact the seller, paypal, GW...?

 

I'm a bit green to ebay.

[Kales]

I would contact Both, and paypal, this seller is clearly selling remoulds, the image that he had on his site and your product are clearly 2 different items, the moulding on the foot for example is awfull, I could do better using playdo.

[Lucien Eilam]

Report it to eBay and GW. I think eBay have a specific counterfeiting report option somewhere. PayPal is owned by eBay, so I don't think you need to report it to them too, but it wouldn't hurt.

 

The fact you assembled them won't make any difference - it's not like making a return.

[Toxichobbit]

 

That's a huge assumption there. The OP has no idea if this is fake or not. He could be reporting a perfectly legitimate seller and causing FW/ebay to waste their time investigating. Stuff should only be reported if someone is 100% sure it's fake. If your unsure, just don't buy from that person again.

Bull:cuss. There's no such thing as white Finecast. Finecast isn't the same as Forge World resin. That specific collection all being in white resin 100% guarantees it didn't come from Lenton.

 

Search for those Marines on eBay, and notice how oddly enough, nobody else ever seems to have got a white one.

 

Until now there was only the OPs word that it was white. Finecast is a light grey that could be described as "white" when being compared to other darker resins, the same way poultry is described as white compared to darker meat. I have finecast that can be viewed as white under certain light sources and it came straight from GW, so is most certainly not a fake. You were condemming the trader based on the OPs perception (which could have been mistaken) and were too quick to judge.

 

@ Valkyrion, having seen your picture i'd say that the GD Captain is indeed a fake. Thanks for posting the pic so that it could be confirmed, rather than speculated. If the pictures on the listing don't match the product you recieved you have a legitimate case to take to ebay. Despite my disagreeing with Lucien about jumping the gun, I do agree that now that it's confirmed that it's a fake, it should be reported. The sooner fakes are off the market the better, then others won't accidently buy them and end up disappointed.

 

I'd contact ebay first, rather than Paypal. Ebay should refund you the money and take action against the seller as he's selling a fraudulent product. I have no idea if you'll have to return the product, but just be aware you might have to in order to get a refund. If you have no look getting your money back through Ebay then try Paypal, though I highly doubt it will come to that. After that i'd contact FW to inform them of the forgeries. They'll put pressure on Ebay to take the listings down or maybe ban the seller and may even take action against him themselves. What's important is that you get your cash back and this guy is stopped from selling his fakes on Ebay, which looking at his feedback can't happen too soon.

[Lucien Eilam]

Until now there was only the OPs word that it was white. Finecast is a light grey that could be described as "white" when being compared to other darker resins, the same way poultry is described as white compared to darker meat. I have finecast that can be viewed as white under certain light sources and it came straight from GW, so is most certainly not a fake. You were condemming the trader based on the OPs perception (which could have been mistaken) and were too quick to judge.

Jog on. We only had Valkyrion's description to base anything on. Assuming that somebody knows what "white" looks like is not jumping the gun, and I don't need photographic evidence that he doesn't need his eyes testing before offering advice.

[Valkyrion]

I'm actually booked in next thursday for an eye test.

 

Anyway, ta. I'll take pictures of the rest of the stuff this weekend and send it to GW. Not sure about contacting ebay as I don't want to return it to greece having already assembled, if that's what they decree.

 

Just let GW sort it.

[Major_Gilbear]

A few things, having come across fake models on EBay many times:

 

1) If you have looked at and bought lot of models, then Ebaying or not, you are pretty well qualified to spot a fake. Sure, there may be some where you are not sure about, but the very fact that you suspect in the first place makes it quite likely to be the case IMO.

 

2) If you contact the seller, there is an excellent chance that they will ask you to return the goods for a refund. Generally, this is illegal, and against EBay policy - you cannot trade in or pass on fakes knowingly. That's like finding that somebody has given you a counterfeit banknote with your change in a store - if you spot it in time, you ask for a genuine replacement note, but you don't return the fake (otherwise, you have no guarantee that the seller won't just palm it off to somebody else in future).

 

3) The exemption note that the seller has posted shows quite clearly that they know they're selling fakes - you don't post a notice a like that unless you know you are or have done. Ignorance isn't a defence for anything under any country's law either. Also, the onus is on the seller to prove that he's not selling a fake (harsh as that is), and if you have photographic evidence, it's hard for him to make a case.

 

4) If the seller is not selling the *exact* item in the photo, and refers you in the description to the auction photo, then you are eligible to pursue a complaint for the item not being as described. This has happened to me a few times - one stock pic, but three different auctions all sharing the same pic.

 

5) Ebay owns PayPal. Therefore, a complaint through one is really a complaint through both. I'd choose to go through PayPal, as I find that they are more responsive and less annoying to deal with.

 

6) I would also report the seller to GW/FW. Let them get involved and put pressure on EBay to be more thorough in checking sellers and the feedback they receive. After you are finished with the PayPal complaint procedure, you might want to send the models to them so that they can verify them (or not) and provide you with complimentary replacements if they can.

 

Good luck! ;)

[Toxichobbit]

 

Until now there was only the OPs word that it was white. Finecast is a light grey that could be described as "white" when being compared to other darker resins, the same way poultry is described as white compared to darker meat. I have finecast that can be viewed as white under certain light sources and it came straight from GW, so is most certainly not a fake. You were condemming the trader based on the OPs perception (which could have been mistaken) and were too quick to judge.

Jog on. We only had Valkyrion's description to base anything on. Assuming that somebody knows what "white" looks like is not jumping the gun, and I don't need photographic evidence that he doesn't need his eyes testing before offering advice.

 

You don't condem a trader based on something as flimsy as a vague forum post without evidence.

 

Also, while this may be the internet and I know you probably don't care, your coming across badly. Your passive aggressive attitude isn't endearing you to me and I doubt anyone else. It is possible to diagree with someone without calling their opinion bull:cuss or telling them to ":cuss off", even if it's just in slang.

 

Edit for grammar

[Lucien Eilam]

I didn't "condemn" anyone. I said it must be recast, based on the compelling evidence at hand. At that point there was no way for anyone to tell who trader even was, never mind whether they were the one who cast it, so how could I be condemning anyone?

 

The question was "is it fake?" and what to do about it. I confirmed that it must be, and told him to report it to the people who will be able to replace it, so he doesn't lose out. I didn't even reply to you until your weird overreaction telling him not to waste anyone's time investigating it. Maybe you can afford to be robbed of £40 and let it fly, but most people can't.

 

Your position seems to be, what? To assume that the OP can't tell the difference between white and grey? That's a bigger assumption than anything I said.

 

Note that I "jumped" to exactly the right conclusion, while you were telling him to paint it up before selling it on so they couldn't tell it was dodgy. Maybe you should leave moderation to the mods and examine your own conscience.

[Toxichobbit]

Condemn was probably too strong a term to apply to the situation. Apologies for that.

 

I've explained my position quite clearly and no one else seems to have any problem understanding it. Valkyrion, the OP, even agrees with me. Seeing as your having problems reading what I wrote, let me explain it to you simply. I am advising the OP to be cautious about reporting people until he's 100% sure. Nothing more, nothing less. I have at no point overreacted, told him to paint it and sell it on nor ignore it ("let it fly"). If you find that so difficult to understand that you need to misquote my posts to prove your viewpoint, then I don't know what else to say. Here's my intial post to you, quite clearly saying nothing more than "OP, make sure". Emphasis on the relevant part.
 

That's a huge assumption there. The OP has no idea if this is fake or not. He could be reporting a perfectly legitimate seller and causing FW/ebay to waste their time investigating. Stuff should only be reported if someone is 100% sure it's fake. If your unsure, just don't buy from that person again.

 
You, on the other hand based your advice on no evidence. You based it on the OPs word, which is not "compelling evidence". Valkyrion realises that I meant no disrespect to him and was simply advising him to make sure before he took action. As soon as evidence was presented that clearly proved that it was a fake I fully supported him reporting the trader to both ebay and FW. If anyone overreacted it was you, calling my inital post "bull:cuss" then telling me to :cuss off.
 
I'm quite done with arguing with someone who can't or won't read what I write and makes stuff up to prove their point. If you wanted to have a civil discussion about differing views i'd be fine with that, but you've demonstrated your incapable of that. First by aggressively calling my opinion wrong, then by telling me to :cuss off when I continued to disagree with your opinion and finally defending your opinion by twisting what I write (not a sensible thing to do when the truth is but a few posts above yours). I could accept an opinion of "I'd rather report them to be sure than risk it being a fake and the guy continuing trading", but I can't accept your overly aggressive attitude and outright insistance that your viewpoint is the only right one, especially as you've lied to prove it. Your opinion is no more valid than mine nor anyone elses.
 
There's one thing you are right about though, I should leave the moderating to the mods. Once again, my apologies. I should have just reported you, not tried to reason with you. Seeing as you've broken multiple forum rules (swearing, using slang to avoid the word filter) I think it's best if I let them deal with you as they see fit. So, i've taken your advice and reported you. Perhaps i'm over-reacting and you've done nothing wrong, but either way it's in the hands of the mods now and there's no need for any continued bickering in this thread.

[Captain Semper]

OK this has gone far enough.

 

Thread closed.