spu00sed Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 I've been thinking about the new rites of war and how they limit the number of consuls and was trying to think why. Then I came up with an idea Forgeworld want fluffy lists, lists that represent the legions, not lists that will win Consuls are suppose to be a small group of elite officers in the chapter, battalion, etc who are able to give their expertise in certain areas. Not be the main leaders of the legion, they are the centurions and praetors. As such they have limited the consuls in specialised lists, so you can't spam them to get their benefits. However they haven't limited them so you can make your own fluffy lists Three master of signals could work together in a siege based list, with your heavy support filled with artillery units Two moritat and a siege breaker for a scorched earth army Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 You're just now realizing that Forge world is all about fluff? The entire company is one big fluff machine. Every list they have produced in their books can in no way compete with a specialized completion list, but (IMO) they are so much more fun to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
spu00sed Posted October 10, 2013 Author Share Posted October 10, 2013 You're just now realizing that Forge world is all about fluff? The entire company is one big fluff machine. Every list they have produced in their books can in no way compete with a specialized completion list, but (IMO) they are so much more fun to play. I have known they are a fluff company, but reading about they restrictions in the new rites allowed me to see it even more. They want to give freedom in list creation, but at the same time stop WAAC lists. I love them for it Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491758 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Yeah, you don't even have to look at the Rites of War for that. The Legiones Astartes rules for most of the Legions are actually decent rules that are perfectly fluffy. Even the World Eaters who kind of drew the short straw in that department are fully reflected in their rules, which show their attrition rates of the XII Legion while also showing how the longer they fight, the more dangerous they become. At the same time, Forgeworld does an excellent job of building balanced rules and units. Makes it hard to believe they were made and owned by GW. But look at the Night Lords. A rule that gives +1 Wound under certain conditions. The two units that would be totally OP with that rule will most likely almost never go running into combat with that advantage. Which is probably a good thing since 20 Night Raptors+HQ with 21 Chainglaives with +1 Wound would just be oh so wrong on oh so many levels. Not to mention the point cost? Yikes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491772 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 What are the Consul's exactly? Are they Centurions or Centurions with an upgrade? The wording in Betrayal makes me think it's Centurions (with or without upgrade). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491793 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Yeah, you don't even have to look at the Rites of War for that. The Legiones Astartes rules for most of the Legions are actually decent rules that are perfectly fluffy. Even the World Eaters who kind of drew the short straw in that department are fully reflected in their rules, which show their attrition rates of the XII Legion while also showing how the longer they fight, the more dangerous they become. At the same time, Forgeworld does an excellent job of building balanced rules and units. Makes it hard to believe they were made and owned by GW. But look at the Night Lords. A rule that gives +1 Wound under certain conditions. The two units that would be totally OP with that rule will most likely almost never go running into combat with that advantage. Which is probably a good thing since 20 Night Raptors+HQ with 21 Chainglaives with +1 Wound would just be oh so wrong on oh so many levels. Not to mention the point cost? Yikes. So wrong...but so right :) I dont think its anymore op than a squad of destroyers - yes they can absolutely wreck face, but they have to get close, they cost a ton of points, and a predator executioner will prolly blast em to kingdom come its a wonderful circle of life that is quite balanced :D even people who say the moritat is broken i've gotta wonder: "you actually let him get within 12 in of you? YOU FEWL!" Forgeworld takes into account strategery and doesn't have too many point and click units like GW imho. I was smacking around people's lists (venom spam, big bugs, chaos with abby) with Tau pre-riptide haha. People would say, "Tau? wait people actually play this?" and then after the game they would get that sad look on their face (trust me everyone gets a little butthurt when they lose, its a totally normal human reaction) when I beat them with firewarriors, crisis suits, and devilfish. Its unfortunate that people immediately think: hey I can spam this, without thinking about having fun with the game and your list /rant over/ @TH Centurions are the bare bones captains (think praetors are chapter masters, centurions are company captains) Consuls are upgraded centurions who specialize in one thing, such as: Librarian, Chaplain, Siege Breaker, etc. but have the same stats as a centurion Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491813 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 You nailed it Kol, my jump assault world eaters were unimpressive during play testing because we only did head to head fights. I was testing against Bids and Marines and we didn't think much of 30k beyond fluff fun. The first full game (2000) played all fluff like do insane. They learned to gun me down or out man the close combat, because if my unit survived they wreaked shop even under strengthed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 Yeah, in a way, it fully represents the Legion in general, not just in battle. With their attrition rates, making it to two hundred years would be difficult. And anyone who managed it would have to be deadly in combat. The Terrans of the XII Legion almost have to be CC Monsters just to survive to the Heresy. Really says something about Khârn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 10, 2013 Share Posted October 10, 2013 And that's why he's khornes chosen. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3491948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 He's everyone's chosen: Angron's, since Khârn's the only one who can talk some sense into him; Lorgar's, since Khârn mauled Erebus so bad the chaplain now regularly goes to Horus for his weekly face-peeling so he can forget the pain the WE caused him; mine, since (see "Lorgar's"). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492310 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I just wish he would have came with the option to have a jumppack. I love the route FW is going with 30k. I've pretty much stopped playing 40k and one push 30k or IA lists now. They are so much more fun to play. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I just wish that the WEs had better rules and ones that represented them being consummate fighters since, you know, they fight ASTARTES when they aren't in a war. I would think that they would be some of the best equipped to fight other astartes since they did real life and death duels against each other, not just wimpy servitors. But this is just my one spot I hate in FW HH rules, the rest is absolute gold and spot on. But hey we all need to crap somewhere, and FW just picked the world eaters to shine that turd :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I believe it was a balance issue. If they had one Legion that was boss against all PA it would lead to the WAAC players playing nothing but WE. I would have loved to see Chainaxes either be AP3 (with points cost) or bonus to Str (free) to give them that little something to make other legions fear getting into CC with WE. AP4 does nothing in a era of PA. Right now the best way to handle WE is to overload them in CC, which should be the last thing anyone wants to do. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492540 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I believe it was a balance issue. If they had one Legion that was boss against all PA it would lead to the WAAC players playing nothing but WE. I would have loved to see Chainaxes either be AP3 (with points cost) or bonus to Str (free) to give them that little something to make other legions fear getting into CC with WE. AP4 does nothing in a era of PA. Right now the best way to handle WE is to overload them in CC, which should be the last thing anyone wants to do. Thats what I was thinking and I thought the chainglaives represented this, but let the NLs have it. I honestly think to make them unique they should've brought back the old chainaxe rule where you cant make better than a 4+ save (so power and artificer armor can only make a 4+ not a 3 or 2+) and costed them at 3 points a model Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevatar Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I believe it was a balance issue. If they had one Legion that was boss against all PA it would lead to the WAAC players playing nothing but WE. I would have loved to see Chainaxes either be AP3 (with points cost) or bonus to Str (free) to give them that little something to make other legions fear getting into CC with WE. AP4 does nothing in a era of PA. Right now the best way to handle WE is to overload them in CC, which should be the last thing anyone wants to do. Thats what I was thinking and I thought the chainglaives represented this, but let the NLs have it. I honestly think to make them unique they should've brought back the old chainaxe rule where you cant make better than a 4+ save (so power and artificer armor can only make a 4+ not a 3 or 2+) and costed them at 3 points a model I don't quite undestand. From what I can see, the World Eaters have great rules. Sure, with the new Rite of War you can't have Drop Pods. But you can re-roll run rolls of 1, have Hatred outside of Deployment zone AUTOMATICALLY, and if you play smart (and are lucky) you have Furious Charge! Compare this to the Death Guard who are....immune to pinning. Which the World Eaters basically have with their Rite of War. Sure, we get Move Through Cover and non-compulsory Troop Choices, but I feel the World Eaters got a much better deal here. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hisdudeness Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 They have great rules, but the unit has to survive a CC to gain them. The rules also are only for the first turn of an assault. And to get both they would have to win AND lose a CC (with a 1/6 chance after losing). This means that the 10 man squads will most likely never get them, if they do you have 3-4 men left. 20 man squads can get it easier, but have the weaknesses of a large squad trying to maneuver to CC. WE biggest weakness is a lack of a unit that can handle a dedicated CC character alone. Bu this might change with the Buchters. Fluff wise (as stated above), they fully show how WE slowly work up to a blood frenzy. Even that 3-4 man squad can tear a larger squad up once the Nail's have them, it's the issue of getting to that point. The only army wide rule (chainaxes) doesn't help get to that point against PA. The WE new Rite only makes them more fluffy and represent the WE as they were at the Massacre and later Heresy. All the Legion specific Rites do the same, show (in rules) how a Legion changed during the Heresy. I would love to see more of these added every book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 @sevatar I respectfully disagree. The world eater rules include a lot of ifs, just like hisdudeness has mentioned. They get hatred IF they are out of their deployment zone (which is around a third of the board - a lot of space) They get furious charge IF they win a combat, and IF they get the charge on the next unit They get rage IF they lose combat and IF they fail their morale check and IF they roll a 1. Which Rage is useless unless you are able to finish the combat you are in without any benefits, and IF you can pull off another charge You MUST sweeping advance - this is the stupidest thing put out by forgeworld. Like golly gee? They always do that! pointless Reroll 1s for pinning and running - ok, IF you come under these circumstances. Now lets look at a few DG rules: AUTOMATICALLY ignore fear, which is absolutely amazing because primarchs cause fear, the warlord trait for fear, and NL units AUTOMATICALLY get move through cover AUTOMATICALLY can include veteran tactical squads and heavy weapon squads for troop choices characters may be given rad grenades - quite a big help Now please go back and tell me that DG have worse rules than the World Eaters, IF you want to Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I believe it was a balance issue. If they had one Legion that was boss against all PA it would lead to the WAAC players playing nothing but WE. I would have loved to see Chainaxes either be AP3 (with points cost) or bonus to Str (free) to give them that little something to make other legions fear getting into CC with WE. AP4 does nothing in a era of PA. Right now the best way to handle WE is to overload them in CC, which should be the last thing anyone wants to do. Thats what I was thinking and I thought the chainglaives represented this, but let the NLs have it. I honestly think to make them unique they should've brought back the old chainaxe rule where you cant make better than a 4+ save (so power and artificer armor can only make a 4+ not a 3 or 2+) and costed them at 3 points a model Yeah, but the Chainglaives can only be given to characters who have the option to take a normal Power Weapon, with the exception of the Night Raptors. So yeah, we could get an entire unit of Night Raptors loaded out with Chainglaives, but just ten Night Raptors(all with chainglaives) is 350 points. It's not cheap to field that much out there. But for the rest of the army, it is no different from giving all your Sergeants Lightning Claws, Power axes or Power swords. Even here, Forgeworld has managed to make a balance. Heck, our two units who would benefit the must of a +1 Wound, will most likely never see it. And we will always have to protect our Warlords a bit more than everyone else, or fear an army wide Morale test with 25% losses penalty. Yes, we don't have it as bad as the World Eaters, our rules are better and somewhat more reliable> You can pretty much look at the situation and know if you'll get the bonus or not. but they do have a checks and balance in place, even the Chainglaives. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Playing WE we just need to think primarch angron in Deamon prince mode is going to obliterate everyone Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3492998 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Playing WE we just need to think primarch angron in Deamon prince mode is going to obliterate everyone Comes with 100 grey knight terminators just to keep him from ripping out of your army case Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281725-lack-of-consuls-in-new-rites-of-war-a-theory/#findComment-3493021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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