Starting over! Need Help/ Opinions

[malorn24]

Ok so I have decided to strip the models, disassemble models, and start over from scratch! Crazy I know but hey I'm trying to get my motivation back lol. So I am a big fluff guy and I am STOKED about the new chapter tactics. That has inspired me to go with a 1st founding chapter so that means a new paint job. And now Sic or He'stan can't go with a IF chapter and so on this forces me to pick a new one.

 

So my question is which chapter and to go with. I know everyone has thier own opinions and that is what I am hoping for since I am looking for total inspiration. My play style usually ends up with castleing and dropping termies in the mid rounds. (that might have to change with VP's so big with 6th ED) I have tried alpha strikes, gun line, all kinds of different approaches but I usually revert back to just trying to kill as many of the bad guys as possible.

 

So my question is this.... What Chapter Trait do you think works better with Castleing and such. What units work well? What overall tactics work well? Again I know the first thing people are going to want to say is its up to you so change the questions I guess. If YOU were starting over what would you change? But I would love input on what Chapter fits into my play style.

 

One last thing.... No I do not want to make up my own chapter just so tha tI can change it around as I need. I have been trying to adjust my army to fit each individual army rather than learn how to put together a good all around army and become an expert at fielding it!

 

 

[Mannyu78]

Are you sure you want to tie yourself to a 1st Founding? Make your own chapter, paint what you like and call them counts-as.... Iron Hands may serve you well

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

To be honest I wouldn't change a thing. I LOVE playing Blood Angels.

 

But in the same capacity as yourself, I hated my initial 12 year old(age at the time) paint job so I stripped them all.

 

I find myself now with the daunting task of repainting an entire army which is exhilarating and incredibly demotivating when you realize just how long this will take to do right lol.

 

But hey! Good on you! Whatever play style you decide to go for, make sure you like the look and feel of the army, else it was all for naught.

[malorn24]

To manny

 

I know the risks of being tied to a 1st founding but at the same time I like the fact of not having the cruch of oh yeah this is what 1st founding chapter my guys come from. Like I stated before I love the fluff and that is one of the most interesting parts for me to this game. There isn't one chapter that I am obsessed about. I like certain traits of all of them and silike certain traits of all of them. But that is what I find interesting. I guess its my way of doing more than just roll dice and move mini's.

 

Why do you say Iron Hands? Can you go into more detail?

 

And yes Blacklord I am stripping models and yes it is a bigger task than I thought but hey it meats just having them sit in my closet waiting for the next time I get a chance to play. And I too have some "so your new to 40k, good for you" painted models. lol

[Ishagu]

Ultramarines for the incredible Special characters!

They have the best Librarian in the whole game of 40k, and one of the best Chapter Masters who opens up some really amazing rules and tactical play :-D ...and we've not mentioned the other awesome characters like Telion who gives 2+ cover saves in ruins or an Aegis, and Chronus who can make a tank better at shooting, harder to kill and impervious to stunned/shaken results.

Ultras also have very flexible chapter tactics, but are also the hardest to make the most of.

 

Iron Hands are universally useful.

 

Crimson Fists with Pedro Kantor are great. You re-roll misses of 1 with all Bolter Weapons and you get scoring Sternguard. Other benefits too!

Of course you can run Imperial Fists if you want to make use of the toughest mofo in the Codex: Lysander

 

Salamanders have great tactics and Vulkan is as good as ever, however you have to gear the army towards specific weapons and tactics - and I don't like that.

 

White Scars grav-biker lists look to be some of the most powerful in the game. They rip some armies to pieces.

 

 

Anyway... you have choices to make! Based on your initial post however, I would pick from:

 

Ultramarines

Imperial/Crimson Fists

Iron Hands

[malorn24]

Thank you ishagu that is very useful. It is hard to tell what chapter you like lol

 

I have been leading towards Fist (either or) but this is what I need to help me really get what I want. Thank you

[Muctar]

Imperial Fists seems to fit what you're looking for. Since you tend to castle with long range funs and send a few mobile units out to capture/control I think those traits would be best. Tank hunter devs and re-rolling 1s on bolt weapons will help your shooting phase immensely.

[tdemayo]

I have agree: imperial Fists are probably best at castling. Their chapter tactics enhance Devastators for long range fire, and bolters for massed fire. Lysander is a pretty nice character to run with Terminators. Ultramarines are probably a close second. They can also enhance shooting with their Doctrines and with Tigurius. However, each ultramarine trick only works for one turn of activation. Therefore, Ultramarines are probably more suited to a moving army that aims to deliver a decisive close-range shooting fusillade. Iron Hands are probably third choice for your play style. They get a FNP roll and an enhancement to their vehicles. So they would make your castle a bit more durable.

 

Anyway, chapter tactics are just perks. Any Space Marine army is flexible enough for multiple potential play styles.

 

As far as modeling goes, though, I also prefer a DIY chapter. GW rules wax and wane. It kinda sucks to tie yourself down. Plus if your chosen Chapter has an undesirable paint scheme, you aren't stuck for hours and hours painting a color you dislike. I love the imperial fists background, for example,, but I hate painting yellow.

[malorn24]

Thats a good point. I may want to attempt to paint a model first to see. I have an Iron Knights chapter but it ended up loking like a slightly darker plain pewter model with black shoulder pads and helmets lol.

[Excubitor]

Pick a chapter and go with it, just because you paint them as Imperial Fists doesn't mean you can't play an 8th company bike allied detachment as White Scars, a 10th company list as Raven Guard, or an armory-heavy list as Iron Hands.

[tdemayo]

Yellow and white are finicky and unforgiving colors. I'd paint a few, before asking - do I really want to do this for 150 models? My first army (Eldar) was mostly white, and I still struggle with highlighting and shading it every time I paint a space elf. if I could travel back in time, I'd slap my younger self for making that choice. So, yeah, yellow is a serious and brave commitment.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think your best bet for castling up -- and this is not faction loyalty talking -- is the Iron Hands.  Castling is a defensive strategy whose entire purpose is to make it as hard as possible for an opposing army to penetrate your perimeter.  CT:IF improves your shooting and is beneficial to a castle, for sure.  However, CT:IH makes each Space Marine and and each vehicle (unique amongst the Chapter Tactics) individually tougher to kill; basically, each brick in your castle wall becomes steel-plated.  It reinforces your castle walls, thus giving your gunline more time to do damage.

[Molokai]

I agree with Deus on this one.

 

Iwnd on vehicles is perfect for an impenetrable castle.

 

I have just started a DIY myself. Not for trait swapping though but because I simply wanted to paint my own scheme. I had originally chosen iron hands but didn't want to paint an all black army so I got creative.

[DarkGuard]

For castling, there are three Chapter Tactics that can suit your needs.

 

First, and most obvious, is the Imperial Fists. Re-rolls on bolters, tank hunters on Devs and Dev Centurions, you should be able to easily blast your opponent's transports apart, and then finish them off with your anti-infantry firepower. Very good Chapter Tactic for this strategy.

 

Iron Hands are the second choice. They're more durable, and so therefore are more likely to stick about in a fire fight. However, IMO this increase in durability is quite minimal, and I'd much rather take Imperial Fists, what's dead can't shoot you back, durability in killing your opponent first.

 

Finally, Ultramarines. Their Chapter Tactics aren't great for this. Tactical doctrine as your enemy closes would be good, Devastator should they get close enough for assault, or you need to reposition. On this basis, Imperial Fists are better, so why mention it? Tigurius. That's why. The king of re-rolls is only available with Ultramarines. Storm of Fire, Prescience, both are great powers. You could be sneaky and ally in Tiggy with an Imperial Fists detachment, although if you do so you'd likely lose Storm of Fire. Or do it the other way around to get Tank Hunter Devs, but you'd lose out on Bolter Drill across most of your army.

 

 

There's also a fourth option, Black Templars. Only reason why would be for 5-6 man Crusader squads with plasma guns and lascannons etc. Otherwise, their tactics are awful for the strategy, so I wouldn't recommend it.

[WarriorFish]

Good luck! I made the mistake of deciding to repaint both my Guard and Marines a few years back. That was a lot of work at once but well worth the effort now I'm pretty much done :) Doing a single army is a much more sensible idea :P

 

I agree with what has been said, Imperial Fists or Iron Hands sound like they're right up your street. They're both cool and have nice colour schemes so you won't go far wrong with them. A DIY chapter would also be a good way to have your cake and eat it in this regard if you weren't set on a 1st founding.

 

In purely practical terms though this is the first love the IH has got in a long time, so if you go with them then be prepared for GW to thumb it's nose at you for no good reason. IFs get more support historically but who can say what the future holds? GW giveth and GW taketh away...

[malorn24]

Wow Thank you for all the advice and help.

 

I have always love IF for some their defensive fluff but at first Yellow didn't appeal to me. But hte more I look at it the more I like it for some strange reason.

 

 

 

Tdemayo

Why do you say that yellow is unforgiving?

 

IH FNP I like alot but the FNP rule got kinda nerfed so it doesn't seem to be that likely a factor. But I could be wrong.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Both white and yellow seem to have trouble covering.  I have a White Templar army so I can say with some experience that white is not easy to paint.  After trying multiple methods and comparing the results, I have simplified my painting though, to the following:

1. Primer white.
2. Take the wash you want (I use black or dark brown) and paint it into the recesses in the model.  Try to avoid getting wash anywhere on the white where you don't want shaded.
3. Take your white paint and then pain the white areas of the armor, kind of nosing up to the places you washed.  Don't pain over anywhere you want shaded - leave that white primer with the wash.
4. Paint the other colors, metals, etc.
5. Cover any slip-ups with white.

The other thing is that it just takes more coats of white (and yellow) to look nice.  This is because you really need to paint it with thin paint, again, and again, and again, and again, and again.  Of course, every time you do a coat, you have a chance of having a slip-up you have to correct.  And you'd be amazed at how long it takes to cover things too.  Trying to cover a black wash stain on white primer takes at least 4 coats.  Consequently, I've discovered it save time to slow down and paint the wash very carefully, almost like I was doing the final detail work.

 

The good news is that white, unlike yellow, doesn't really require highlighting a lot of the time.  If you do need to highlight, I like to add just a touch of blue to the white paint, making it a bluer white.  It's subtle, but it's something.  You might be able to do it with yellow by adding a touch of white to the yellow; you'd have to play with it.  The other way to highlight white or yellow is to use metalics.  Just a little of the lightest colored metalic adds just a little reflection to the highlight.  Or use more and make it look like some white/yellow paint got scraped off, leaving bare metal.

 

I've also been toying with doing a founding chapter or maybe a second founding chapter because GW torqued me off.  I started on White Templars about a year and a half ago.  Then, last April, GW published a novel that refernces them attending the Dorn chapter's get together which means they are IF descendants.  I could spit nails.  Then GW publishes the new 'dex that says they are so secretive that you don't know what they are which seems like an about face.  I don't want to be an IF descendant; I didn't really want to have to choose.  So like you, I am kind of having an identity crisis.  I could say, screw any novel, the codex says I'm indeterminate.  I could also just be IF.  I could say, gee they coincidentally look just like White Templars have even accidentally have the same marking.  I could do some alterations and make them a DIY chapter called Marble Guard or Oak Guard or whatever.  I like aspects of most chapters but dislike other aspects.  For example, I like the Salamander's attitudes, but I hate the we-look-like-drow thing.  I like the Iron Hand's leadership structure, but I don't like the close ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus.  And so forth.  What I'm taking a long time to say is that if you choose a named chapter that isn't a founding chapter, GW can and frequently does just completely shift the ground from under you.  You never know when or if they will pick up your chapter that you spent hours painting and decide it has changed its color scheme or lost itself in the Warp or suddenly has a different ancestry.  With the founding chapters, this is much less unlikely (though possible).

 

Turning, at last to your original question, for castling, the advantages of the IH and the IF have been fairly well extrapolated.  I think you also need to look at the white Scars.  Their ability to H&R is very useful for a castle if your army is based on shooting because it will let you disengaged after being assaulted and then have a turn of shooting.  In essence, this lets your shooting troops convert a melee fight back into a shooting fight.

 

Also, in the lists above, the Raven Guard got left out, though probably with good reason in your case.  Their ability to scout infantry has less application in a primarily castling force although the outflank might give you some valuable ability to get down field in the mid-game after having started so bunched up.  Likewise, the enhanced jump troops might help you if you use them as counter-assaulters.  Mostly though, what they have to offer a castle is T1 stealth which, compared with some of the other benefits, is not stellar.

 

So, my suggestion would be that if you run a lot of vehicles, you might consider IH.  If you don't, I'd consider Scars, especially if you also run bikes, but even if you don't.  IF is also a very solid choice, especially if you have a lot of devs or dev centurions.  Behind all of these in my mind are the Ultramarines.  Ultras have the most flexible tactics but I think this means they really don't have the best tactics for any one kind of approach.  They compensate with their awesome spate of special characters.

 

As far as the part of the question about what units work well and tactics with them.  How do you define well?  Do you want things that look awesome or do you want the most twisted and nigh-broken configurations we can think of (EX teleporting Tiggy with 6 dev. cents.)?  My general observations with castling are that you have to think about what it is and what it does.  Castling is a defensive strategy, one I frequently employ against pods, demons, or other deep strike armies where I will not have much opportunity to inflict damage before an enemy unit is able to achieve an almost optimal and quite damaging turn of attacking me.  It is primarily a damage mitigation strategy.  It is usually not good when you need to grab objectives, especially when you have to be the aggressor (your opponent has placed 3 of the 5 objectives in the other DZ).  A castle can also be used as a gambit to attempt to draw your opponent to you because it looks defensive and possibly weak.  Castles work by shielding the inner part of the castle with the exterior part of the castle.  This requires that you value part of your army above another part and that you have a high enough model count to be able to wrap the expendable part around the non-expendable part.  You are using the expendable part to give cover saves to the more-valuable units and/or to keep things (meltagun Sternguard for example) from getting optimum range (6") on their primary targets (tanks).  Thus, successfully castling depends on your analysis of the opposing force, the mission, and the threat.  For example, in the previous couple of sentences, you perceived a bunch of melta armed Sternguard in a drop pod and you have a force which depends on its tanks.  You want to keep that pod from dropping in the middle of your tanks and destroying a couple.  So you put the tanks in the center of the castle and then put a "bubble" of say scouts or something else such that no enemy can pod in within 6" (12" if you have enough bubble wrap) of the tanks.  Conversely, if you say that the enemy had a lot of dakka, but not much heavy stuff to penetrate armor, you might put your troops, terminators, whatever inside the castle and use the vehicles as the bubble wrap.  It all depends on what you want to do and what you are afraid of the enemy doing.

 

Having said that, I think the better castles comes from fairly high model count forces.  If you don't have enough stuff to make the wall, the castle won't work.  We also know that 6th, in many people's minds, is hard on vehicles, and vehicles, unless you play IH or have a dedicated transport in some instances, don't have chapter tactics.  That implies to me that you probably should focus, at least initially, on infantry.  However, that plays right into the liability of the castle; you start in the back or back corner of your own DZ.  If you have no vehicles, that lack of mobility can really hurt you when you need to get places.  So, you either need some vehicles or you need more mobile non-vehicles.  the latter would be bikes or jump troops.  Of the two, for this kind of force, I'd prefer bikes because they can be troops which is often where you really want mobility.  (Hence my inclusion of White Scars in the discussion above.)  Your threats in a castle will be blast weapons and templates (because you are so packed in).  The bikes +1T helps with blast and you won't see a 'Drake until T2.

 

I also think you'll do well to look at Thunderfire Cannons.  Their small footprint fits them well in a castle and their range means you can hit most of the board from their starting point in the castle, reducing your problem with limited mobility.  Whirlwinds also have the range to be able to shoot from within the castle.

 

TL/DR:  I think you need to look at White Scar tactics, counter-intuitive as that seems.  I think you need a high model count and would look at bikes and TFCs if you want to castle.  Castling depends on your army and your opponent's armies and the mission.  There are solid reasons to choose a founding chapter, but you have more flexibility if you pick something GW NEVER published because they are less likely to throw you a curve ball in the future.  White and yellow are hard to work with because they don't cover as well and are harder to highlight.  I'd also add that if you pick a founding chapter, pick one whose paint scheme you like.

[tdemayo]

White and yellow both tend to streak (especially over a darker underlayer). They are also so light that it is hard to mix or choose a noticeably lighter paint to highlight them (or if you pick a darker main layer, they look grey or tan instead of white or yellow. ) It's harder to get them right. Whereas a color like blue or green or red, I find I can undercoat black and work up with increasingly lighter paints straight out of the bottle and have it look great.

[Kaedes Nex]

Imperial Fists are probably what you want, both in terms of rules and fluff. Half their rules benefit your gunline castle of bolters, and the other half benefit long range units which also tend to castle. Lysander is one of the hardest characters in our book, whether you use him as an offensive deathstar or a defensive counter-assault deterrent. Imperial Fists would rather die to the last man than yield even a single step to the enemy.

 

"Walls fail! Fists do not!" - Rogal Dorn

[malorn24]

Thanks Dan for the very in depth post. You made great points to chew on and tips to try which is what I really was looking forward to read. When I first came to the 40k work my first army that I thought I was going to love was WS but then I read that they don't like the Dreads and I always thought Dreads were one of the coolest ideas for a unit. (which is why I always find a way to run at least one of the in my army. Too bad they never get any love.) Oh well.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

Malorn,

 

I totally get that.  TBH, there is no chapter that I really mesh with perfectly either.  And I have several and started several over the years which adds the complication of trying to keep different armies different.  I don't think the new chapter tactics help either because it tends to pigeon-hole armies just like the fluff (and not always consistently with the fluff).  Let's say you run IF tactics - you will be wanting to maximize your bolters and dev squads.  Salamanders - you want to add flamers, characters and, if you run the special character, meltas.  Scars - maximize bikers.  IH - maximize vehicles and characters.  Raven Guard?  Then you want to run jump packs.  Unless you want to do a DIY and then jumping your chapter tactics around all the time depending on which army you run (which bothers me too), once you pick, you start being constrained.  At least that's how it feels to me.  And then you find yourself thinking, I really shouldn't run this with my army because it doesn't fit my tactics or my fluff.

 

TBH, all my marine armies are kind of in flux right now due to the identity crisis created by the new dex.  However, the fluff discord is easier to fix than the rules discord IMO.  Fluff-side you can make a DIY successor (or pick a less defined successor) and say, for example, that they are Scar descendants but they have come to like heavy armor more than their parent and they use dreadnoughts. Rules wise though the fix is less easy.  You can simply run the chapter your way and figure if the chapter tactics give you bonuses, great, but if not, oh well.  This will feel like you are just not using what you have to the best of your ability though and that just bothers me.  You can make your army and then decide what tactics best benefit the army and run those tactics.  That works fine if it doesn't matter to you that your Space Lords were Iron Hand successors last week and are White Scar successors this week.  You can also just say like half the other chapters, you are an Ultra sucessor and know that, unless you bring a special character, you won't be the best tactics-build combination.  (I suggest to you that the Aurora Chapter would run much better as an IH sucessor.)  However, you have much more flexibility and the fluff will support almost anything you want to do.  

[malorn24]

But that is what I have been wanting to get away from. I was tired of just picking different Special Characters. (lord knows I have them all) and then running based on what I thought I would be facing. But that being said as I read the HH novels I started to see the SM differently. To qoute Dennis Greene "They were who we thought they were". The appeal to me is that each chapter IS a SM chapter that looks at the battle field a little differently then the next. And the even more facinating thing is that they all had the same "troops" as the next. So that is why I was happy that the CT hit because it makes us choose an identity, and then learn develop a strategy that makes that army viable.

[Excubitor]

I've always ignored the "no dreadnoughts" part of the White Scars fluff - Paul Sawyer, the biggest WS player in GW at the time the IA were written, had at least 2 in his army, and he knew more about their fluff at the time than the people who wrote the IA article - Graham McNeil, and Pete Haines. Ultramarine and Iron Warriors players respectively.

 

Might they have less than other chapters? Yes, but I don't see them having none.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

But that is what I have been wanting to get away from. I was tired of just picking different Special Characters. (lord knows I have them all) and then running based on what I thought I would be facing. But that being said as I read the HH novels I started to see the SM differently. To qoute Dennis Greene "They were who we thought they were". The appeal to me is that each chapter IS a SM chapter that looks at the battle field a little differently then the next. And the even more facinating thing is that they all had the same "troops" as the next. So that is why I was happy that the CT hit because it makes us choose an identity, and then learn develop a strategy that makes that army viable.

 

I get looking at the battlefield differently; I would just like to see the CT be a little less focused on certain unit types.  For example, RG has a bonus that only applies to jump troops.  I get that RG tend to employ a lot of jump troops, but I don't like feeling like anything is a must take.  RG also supposedly make great use of scouts, but the only CT they get that benefits scouts is the slight stealth bump in the first game turn.  Neither the jump pack rule or the grant of scouting helps scouts at all.  In fact, arguably what the scouting rule does is make scouts LESS necessary since the tacticals can perform all the scout's functions except infiltration.  Worst of all, however are the effects of the RG CT on drop pods.  RG is supposed to love the things - death from above and all.  Yet, if you think about it, their chapter tactics do nothing for pods.  The scout movement won't work for podding troops nor will the podding troops have jump packs.  The only thing is again that T1 stealth bump which does much less for power armored troops than for scouts.  If you think about it, you'll realize EVERY other chapter tactic synergizes better with podding troops, even the Iron Hands (IWND pods and characters) and Black Templars (better HtH game long).

 

I wish the CT could be used to convey less unit specific advantages and more to encourage certain kinds of tactics.  For example, the Scar's H&R encourages a tactic but not a unit type per se.  Likewise, the Salamander's tactic of master-crafting.  I like the Raven Guard benefit of scouting things also because that encourages a play style and not a list build.  These are all subjective, of course.  You could argue, for example, that the Salamander tactic encourages maximizing characters which is list build.

 

I think part of my perspective is also colored by the fact that I have more than one Marine army.  I also run a Dark Angels flavored force, usually as a dual wing.  One of my current struggles is trying to keep some difference in play style between the DA and my vanilla marines.  I like the Raven Guard tactics and I think a lot of people are selling them short b/c the RG advantages in deployment are not easily mathhammered and compared.  But I keep finding myself conceptualizing the RG the same way I conceptualize my dual-wing -- I want to use the scouting units with homers and beacons to bird dog the arriving deep striking hammer units.  Partly this is driven by the nature of the units the various builds force me to take.  If you are raining Deathwing, you want those guys to assault.  Likewise, if you are fielding jump troops because of your CT, those guys also seem to be kind of assault oriented.  To try to differentiate, I've thought about trying to simply focus on the scouting and center control, but as soon as I start thinking about not using the jump troops, I have to answer the question as to why not use Khan and the White Scars to scout dedicated transports?

 

Heck, last night I was thinking about making a list that specifically used everything in the new 'dex that the Dark Angels can't get.  You'd want to run Crusader squads so you'd be Black Templar based.  Maybe add in some scouts so long as they have Land Speeder Storms.  From Elites, you'd have Vanguard, Sternguard, Ironclads, and Assault Centurions.  From Fast Attack, you'd get Scout Bikers.  From Heavy Support, you could field Dev. Centuions, Stalkers, and Hunters.  I'm not even sure it would be a bad list.  But as i said, I'm kind of in an identity crisis right now.

 

I was running White Templars until the new 'dex and then discovering that last April GW published a novel where the WT are a IF successor.  I don't really want to be an IF successor (b/c my group already has 1-2 of those out of 6 of us among other things).  I had been leaning toward changing their markings around and having them be a RG successor, except as I discussed above, I'm having a hard time making that a different army from my DA successor.  I could make them the Storm Lords I've always wanted to make except with the new codex, I'm fearful that everyone and their brother will be moving into the White Scar's camp to get at those tactics and I'm a contrarian.  I don't want to move to IH b/c one day I want to paint up some Storm Wardens and to me they seem to be IH types.  But enough about that; my army quest is not the point of your thread, and if I want to talk about it, I should start my own.

 

I think if you want to run dreads, run dreads.  I'd probably also run a Stormraven.  My logic here being that if they had had a transport for Dreads in the codex back when they did that IA article on the Scars long ago, they would have happily put dreads in those armies.  And fluffwise, your chapter (or even your company) could certainly be a bit different than the stereotype and you could build some really cool fluff around it.  

[ScionsofLight]

im not gonna give advice on CT, but have you thought of "Aggressive Castling"? It is an easy to say hard to master tactic: take ground outside of your DZ and make that your castle.  See easy, hard part is you will be 12"-24" from most of the enemy force. Unless you are a master of all the codexs, can identify a unit by sight (same with weapons), and can spot/ take advantage fast this style will take some effort.

 

I post this because marines are the best codex for turn 0 pressure and keeping it on all game long. if you hang back in your DZ the game will end fast, the only armies hanging back works with is bugs and green tide. Guard: they will never move and still blast you off the board> Tau: moves alot but the same result> Craftworld: bleed you while never needing to really fight you.

 

Marines are the best at keeping the pressure on because it lets "YOU" dictate the battle. The moment you lose that.... you lose