Sir Blayse Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 Ran into an issue in a game today. I thought it was an obvious issue, but became a bit complicated when I couldn't verify it with the book. Played a game with a player who doesn't play very often. I killed his Razorback, but not the squad inside. I claimed this counted as first blood, yet he insisted that you have to also kill the squad to get the point for it. His reasoning being that since they are bought together they would count as one unit. I could not find a rulebook answer to that, since the only thing that mentions the subject is in Purge the Alien and no where else I could find. I always played it as the vehicle is a separate unit, but he claims that it's always been one unit together since they are bought together. Please give a page if you know this. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 Page 78 - Dedicated Transports The transport is purchased with the unit, and only that unit may be deployed in it. It also doesn't take up a FoC slot. However Once the game begins, it is a separate unit in it's own right and acts independently of the unit it was purchased for. Page 122 - First Blood "The first unit, of any kind, to be removed as a casualty during the game is worth 1VP to the opposing player at the end of the game." The transport is a separate unit, if it's the first unit destroyed, it grants first blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 seconded... I suspect he's getting confused with some older rules interpretations for some units (I think at one point the IG codex was a pig for this where you had to take out every squad in an infantry platoon to count as destroying the platoon) - possibly due to his not playing very often? EDIT - no, sorry, it was when you could detach the heavy weapons team if I recall, no points for wiping the squad unless you got both them and the detached men in the weapons team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 You dont have to kill 50 IG to get first blood- unless theyre in a 50 strong blob as a single unit- so why would dedicated transports be any different?A unit is only a unit if it acts like a unit on the table top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 Even though I understand that they are separate. We did read the rule on page 78, but it doesn't say they are separate directly, at least not in a way he understood it. The rule on 122 didn't help either since he is convinced they are just one unit together since they are one FOC. I think I'll just let him play some others, since no one else has had this issue when we played before. ( He claimed that some of the other players did the way he claimed, though I've played the same players and never had that issue.) Otherwise, he will find out when he goes to a tournament. The whole argument was actual pretty entertaining, because part of the answer was in Purge the Alien. I said it would be broken if you had to kill the troops and the transport to get a VP, because if that was the case you would just hide the transport on the board somewhere and the troops could not give up a VP. He claimed no one would ever do that, because no one would spend 35 points like that. Of course several other competitive players laughed at that, because in a game of a few points to win each one matters. Then we found the PtA section which defends my train of thought. Sadly I used to have more energy for rule arguements, but I actually get tired having to do that all the time. Also, several of the players have decided to ignore the FAQ's, which makes it tough if you use it to clarify a rule. The biggest problem with that now is in our Command squad, since they jacked up the special weapons section it now causes issues with half the players. They claim that you should have to play it as written in the main book. I let them know that the updated stuff is Errata and not the FAQ, but they still ignore it. ( Sorry if this turned into a GW rant, but I just wish they would take enough effort to at least check all their information on something as important as the unit selection. Same problem with Hellbrute in CSM.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ming Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 I appreciate opponents who have a simple and direct understanding and application of the rules, not trying to rationalize them as something else other than intended for the sake of a win. A transport is a unit....the internet and GWs magazine have plenty of written examples affirming that killing a dedicated transport yields first blood (if first), kill points, etc....as per the rulebook... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dam13n Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 The fact that the transport may act independently of it's parent unit makes it an independent unit in it's own right. It really is that simple. Playing Devil's Advocate: Lets say we accept his interpretation... If they are one unit together then they must maintain unit coherency (BRB page 3) So, did his transport remain within 2" of it's unit at all times? If not, then it cannot be part of the same unit, so is a separate unit, so can grant first blood. He cannot have his cake and eat it. If he wishes to argue they are one unit, they must act as such. The moment he moves the transport out of coherency he is (by his interpretation) cheating. The moment he declares an assault with the unit he is (by his interpretation) cheating as the vehicle cannot do so. The moment his transport shoots a separate target to the unit he is (by his interpretation) cheating. etc. etc. etc. Why not point that out to him and see if he wishes to maintain his (flawed) interpretation when he sees just how limiting it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 11, 2013 Author Share Posted October 11, 2013 The fact that the transport may act independently of it's parent unit makes it an independent unit in it's own right. It really is that simple. Playing Devil's Advocate: Lets say we accept his interpretation... If they are one unit together then they must maintain unit coherency (BRB page 3) So, did his transport remain within 2" of it's unit at all times? If not, then it cannot be part of the same unit, so is a separate unit, so can grant first blood. He cannot have his cake and eat it. If he wishes to argue they are one unit, they must act as such. The moment he moves the transport out of coherency he is (by his interpretation) cheating. The moment he declares an assault with the unit he is (by his interpretation) cheating as the vehicle cannot do so. The moment his transport shoots a separate target to the unit he is (by his interpretation) cheating. etc. etc. etc. Why not point that out to him and see if he wishes to maintain his (flawed) interpretation when he sees just how limiting it really is. I actually used that exact point and then he argued that I was reading into it too literally. I was running a drop pod list and I think he was frustrated by the fact that I ended up in his deployment on turn one. Using are Tactical doctrine pretty much insured me to get first blood. I think he going to have to play other players and see how that works out. He's actually a great guy and I don't think he is trying to cheat. I just don't think he is able to understand the difference between FOC and unit. He keep using the FOC as answer to the question. Same issue comes up if you have a command squad. With the current rules you can buy the squad, but are not required to put the character in that unit, his and a few others believe that since you had to have the character to buy the cmd squad, that they must also deploy together and stay together. Even though the rule that used to make that happen, no longer exists. The bigger issue is he mainly played in 3rd edition, which I never played. I started in 5th and have no idea what 3rd for like, except for reading old codex books ( which I like to collect). He only even played a few games in 5th, a lot of those were not even standard 40k... mostly Kill team games. Now he's trying to get back into 40k, maybe tomorrow he will be at the LGS and can interact with some of the other players. The bad thing is it seems like he thinks I'm trying to cheat him with something he doesn't see clearly written. He also claims his way was in 5th edition, which I know is not the case... though I hate to dig out my 5th edition book to try and settle a 6th edition argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 He and your group are wrong on many levels, remembering rules from editions past and making it the current one. Stick to your guns that these are the rules and they clearly say what they say. That's all you can do, really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted October 11, 2013 Share Posted October 11, 2013 It is a "Troops Choice" not a "Troops Unit" Units, and choices, selections, etc, are not the same thing. Unit is a very particular word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molokai Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 All dedicated transports have their own entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 I believe the smoking gun you are looking for is on page 127 in the Purge The Alien mission under the heading Primary Objective. Remember that Independent Characters and Dedicated Transports are individul units and award Victory Points if they are destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Interesting find. I know we had read over that part also, but I didn't remember it being worded that way. Nice. I'll have to bring that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhorneHunter57x Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Same issue comes up if you have a command squad. With the current rules you can buy the squad, but are not required to put the character in that unit, his and a few others believe that since you had to have the character to buy the cmd squad, that they must also deploy together and stay together. Even though the rule that used to make that happen, no longer exists. Ask him/them what happens if you use Calgar to unlock multiple Honor Guard squads, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Or mephiston who is not able to join a squad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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