Horus Heresy book reviews and comments

[Jareddm]

This was awhile back in one of the "What happened to the Missing Legions?" threads. The issue was people were no longer taking the Ultramarine absorption as a rumor, but as an absolute fact, when the reality is just that Gulliman is just seriously good at logistics and growing/managing a legion that big. Not to say it isn't impossible, just that two random Word Bearers shooting the breeze about Ultramarines isn't exactly what would be called a bastion of truth. I'll see what I can find.

I could totally see Gulliman just being that good at organization (helps to have a really stable gene seed too). Sort of how Luther helped the Dark Angels number expand rapidly in Fallen Angels, but probably more so.

That said, i could also see Gulliman being the one trusted to look after soldiers from a lost legion.

It's an interesting concept all round.

Indeed. But it's always important to keep in mind the source of the information. That was really the takeaway message.

Anyway, I look forward to your next reviews! The next three or four books have all been followed by some ahem...heated discussion

[vomkrieg]

This was awhile back in one of the "What happened to the Missing Legions?" threads. The issue was people were no longer taking the Ultramarine absorption as a rumor, but as an absolute fact, when the reality is just that Gulliman is just seriously good at logistics and growing/managing a legion that big. Not to say it isn't impossible, just that two random Word Bearers shooting the breeze about Ultramarines isn't exactly what would be called a bastion of truth. I'll see what I can find.

I could totally see Gulliman just being that good at organization (helps to have a really stable gene seed too). Sort of how Luther helped the Dark Angels number expand rapidly in Fallen Angels, but probably more so.

That said, i could also see Gulliman being the one trusted to look after soldiers from a lost legion.

It's an interesting concept all round.

Indeed. But it's always important to keep in mind the source of the information. That was really the takeaway message.

Anyway, I look forward to your next reviews! The next three or four books have all been followed by some ahem...heated discussion

I'm half way through Prospero burns, which is a pretty good book. Well the first half is good, the last 3rd or so is excellent. I own up to 20 at the moment, but the only one i've read of those previous is the Calth one, and that's also a pretty good book. So the 2 short story comps, deliverance and outcast dead will be all new to me.

[Brother-chaplain Astador]

Just got through reading Damnation of Pythos. Very very well written. The best HH stuff that's been written about the IH so far. 

[vomkrieg]

Prospero burns is up, a good book, but one i had a few issues with. 

[Jareddm]

I mostly agree with you with one exception.  I'm actually not a fan of the idea of the Primarchs having pre-defined roles.  Sure some may have excelled at certain things, but I feel it typecasts them far too much.  I personally see it as this:  No one outside of the Vlka Fenryka and Leman Russ ever really makes any mention about the primarchs having such roles.  I feel this belief is something Wolves think exists, and that Leman Russ gave himself such a role, but not necessarily that the Emperor actually planned out certain primarchs with certain roles.

[vomkrieg]

I mostly agree with you with one exception.  I'm actually not a fan of the idea of the Primarchs having pre-defined roles.  Sure some may have excelled at certain things, but I feel it typecasts them far too much.  I personally see it as this:  No one outside of the Vlka Fenryka and Leman Russ ever really makes any mention about the primarchs having such roles.  I feel this belief is something Wolves think exists, and that Leman Russ gave himself such a role, but not necessarily that the Emperor actually planned out certain primarchs with certain roles.

 

 

Well they were genetically engineered, but how much control the Emperor had on the eventual output is another question. 

 

If he had total control, or a lot, he could have tailored them. He could have made Magnus a psyker exemplar on purpose..... or it could have been unintentional. Also, some of the Primarchs traits could have come across from "nuture" from how they were raised, rather than "nature". 

 

I guess it comes down to that, how much control the Emperor had over the process. If he had a lot, then they could have been designed for specific roles.

 

But yeah, i'm all against "type-casting" and turning characters into caricatures. So i also have some reservations with the idea. 

[Operative]

I find the concept of the Primarchs having a higher purpose a rather interesting one as it gives an interesting insight into what the Emperor's final vision for humanity was and what roles the Primarchs would play in the Imperium.

 

Edit: Also another great review, I too would agree with the placement of Prospero Burns

[vomkrieg]

Book 16, Age of Darkness is up

[Jareddm]

Always love your reviews!

Agree completely on the first three stories. Average to poor for them.

If I recall correctly, the story Rebirth was one of the last stories written, prior to the authors taking a much more active role in communicating plans to one another. Yes, it is an error that Khârn is essentially in two places at once and according to Laurie Goulding, such issues will be fixed once the hardcover and trade-paperback versions of the book come out. (Which haven't exactly been coming out very quickly...)

Personally, Iron Within is one of my favorite stories. The Schendenhold does serve an important function as it acts as the dispatch for Iron Warriors not necessarily on the planet, but to the immediate surrounding planets, as it was built along safe warp routes. It's just a way station. As for the fortress itself, it's the Iron Warriors. They had nothing better to do with their time than to fortify and to fortify more. Not sure what else you'd expect them to have done while they waited.

Anyway, I thought Iron Within and Savage Weapon made up for the others enough to justify it.

[vomkrieg]

Always love your reviews!

Agree completely on the first three stories. Average to poor for them.

If I recall correctly, the story Rebirth was one of the last stories written, prior to the authors taking a much more active role in communicating plans to one another. Yes, it is an error that Khârn is essentially in two places at once and according to Laurie Goulding, such issues will be fixed once the hardcover and trade-paperback versions of the book come out. (Which haven't exactly been coming out very quickly...)

Personally, Iron Within is one of my favorite stories. The Schendenhold does serve an important function as it acts as the dispatch for Iron Warriors not necessarily on the planet, but to the immediate surrounding planets, as it was built along safe warp routes. It's just a way station. As for the fortress itself, it's the Iron Warriors. They had nothing better to do with their time than to fortify and to fortify more. Not sure what else you'd expect them to have done while they waited.

Anyway, I thought Iron Within and Savage Weapon made up for the others enough to justify it.

I liked "the iron within" once i got over the military utility of such a fortress. It's a fine story but for that.

Savage weapons and the last remembrancer are very good, but yeah, as a short story compilation is was a bit lacking in total.

[Legatus]

There are multiple engagements that Ender wins, until he loses to a “Sons of Horus” army led by Horus himself, or Gulliman cosplaying as Horus….. whatever. The lesson being, that the Codex is awesome and stuff, but Gulliman is more awesome.

 

 

That is, like, the opposite of what that story is about. It is Guilliman admitting that the Codex is not actually meant to be strictly adhered to. I.e. the Ultramarines have been doing it wrong for 10,000 years, and Uriel Ventris was right all along. It is Graham McNeill vindicating his "rogue Ultramarine" Character by Guilliman's very own admission.

 

Plus, we are told the Codex is not actually a comprehensive study on warfare, it is a complex ominous formula that predicts the entire course of a battle, and the commander using the Codex does not even understand what that formula is trying to accomplish until the battle has played out, and simply has to blindly apply it. Oh, but they still also have to "think for themselves" and should not stick so rigidly to it, somehow.

[simison]

Entertaining, but I have to bring this one point up.

 

While I was okay with Liar's Due, the fact is, it's a carbon copy of a short story I read in a literature textbook in high school, with a 30k face. In the original short story, it's in 1950's Cold War America. Basically, two aliens do the same trolling the Alpha Legion spy does to get the locals to fight each other. I'm surprised you didn't catch it, but then again, I have no idea who's read this short story beyond myself. 

[vomkrieg]

Entertaining, but I have to bring this one point up.

 

While I was okay with Liar's Due, the fact is, it's a carbon copy of a short story I read in a literature textbook in high school, with a 30k face. In the original short story, it's in 1950's Cold War America. Basically, two aliens do the same trolling the Alpha Legion spy does to get the locals to fight each other. I'm surprised you didn't catch it, but then again, I have no idea who's read this short story beyond myself. 

 

Fascinating, i'd love to find out what story that is. 

 

Also, sounds like the premise of a "twilight zone" episode as well 

[vomkrieg]

 

There are multiple engagements that Ender wins, until he loses to a “Sons of Horus” army led by Horus himself, or Gulliman cosplaying as Horus….. whatever. The lesson being, that the Codex is awesome and stuff, but Gulliman is more awesome.

 

 

That is, like, the opposite of what that story is about. It is Guilliman admitting that the Codex is not actually meant to be strictly adhered to. I.e. the Ultramarines have been doing it wrong for 10,000 years, and Uriel Ventris was right all along. It is Graham McNeill vindicating his "rogue Ultramarine" Character by Guilliman's very own admission.

 

Plus, we are told the Codex is not actually a comprehensive study on warfare, it is a complex ominous formula that predicts the entire course of a battle, and the commander using the Codex does not even understand what that formula is trying to accomplish until the battle has played out, and simply has to blindly apply it. Oh, but they still also have to "think for themselves" and should not stick so rigidly to it, somehow.

 

 

He wins every engagement using the codex until Gulliman shows up. All that proved was that Gulliman > codex as the only difference in the last fight was Gulliman. 

 

Gullimans words aside, the lesson actually taught is not "go off codex when required" but that "primarchs are best". If there had been a scenario where he had lost by sticking too close to the codex without Gulliman being on the other side, you would have a point. But Gulliman was the main variable changed in the scenario, the decisive one. 

 

The codex will always be a problematic issue, because of how entrenched it is in 40k, how dogmatic 40k era marines are and how ludicrous the idea of one methodology is to every scenario. In essence, no "formula" can work for every conceivable scenario, i mean how did Gulliman take into account Tau, Tyranid and Necron capabilities when he wrote it? 

 

If it was simply a set of maxims like "art of war" or a complex treatise on military thinking like "Vom Kriege" then i could understand it. But the idea of an algorithm that takes into account every potential variable as well as every enemy capability, is so farcical as to be laughable. 

 

It's one of the many reasons i prefer 30k to 40k, no miracle codex that renders military thinking invalid until the exciting part of the book where the hero goes "off the reservation" and saves the day. Lazy writing, lazy concept. 

[Legatus]

He wins every engagement using the codex until Gulliman shows up. All that proved was that Gulliman > codex as the only difference in the last fight was Gulliman. 

 

Gullimans words aside, the lesson actually taught is not "go off codex when required" but that "primarchs are best". If there had been a scenario where he had lost by sticking too close to the codex without Gulliman being on the other side, you would have a point. But Gulliman was the main variable changed in the scenario, the decisive one.

 

 

IIRC Ventanus appologizes to Guilliman for failing in the final battle even though he was using the Codex, but Guilliman told him it was not his fault, but that it was a flaw in the Codex, that sometimes it would not work, and that it should not necessarily be followed so closely.

 

 

The codex will always be a problematic issue, because of how entrenched it is in 40k, how dogmatic 40k era marines are and how ludicrous the idea of one methodology is to every scenario. In essence, no "formula" can work for every conceivable scenario, i mean how did Gulliman take into account Tau, Tyranid and Necron capabilities when he wrote it? 

 

If it was simply a set of maxims like "art of war" or a complex treatise on military thinking like "Vom Kriege" then i could understand it. But the idea of an algorithm that takes into account every potential variable as well as every enemy capability, is so farcical as to be laughable. 

 

It's one of the many reasons i prefer 30k to 40k, no miracle codex that renders military thinking invalid until the exciting part of the book where the hero goes "off the reservation" and saves the day. Lazy writing, lazy concept.

 

 

That is mainly a problem with Graham McNeill's interpretation of how the Codex might work. It is not how the Codex was presented in previous lore sources. In earlier sources, the Codex is more described as a comprehensive study and treatise on all conceivable details of warfare, honing and training the commander to make tactical decisions, not as giving specific instructions for a campaign from start to finish.

The Ultramarines MO has allways been represented as flexible and adaptable, and that the Codex advised that for each individual situation, there is a suitable and most effective approach to deal with it. Combined with the modular make up of a Codex Company/Chapter, this allows the Ultramarines to apply a wide variety of solutions depending on the individual situation, where other more specialised Chapters would prefer to use the same MO in differing situations. However, in contrast, some people (including McNeill it seems) somehow instead interpret the Codex as advising one approach (or a set selection) that is applied to all situations. That the Ultramarines thus cannot think outside of the box, and that they would be very predictable.

The 40K lore describes the Ultramarines with a more scholarly, effectiveness focused attitude to warfare, whereas McNeill has described them as dogmatic and uncritical.

[vomkrieg]

 

Yep, sounds like the issue is with McNeill's ultramarines and his view of the codex. 

The codex could work as an idea, but it would make marines really easy to beat if their enemies (say a chapter that went rogue) had a copy of it and could simulate with it.

 

Let me say, that i love the Ultramarines in "know no fear". That was the book that turned them from "boring by the numbers" guys into a believable legion for me. 

 

[vomkrieg]

 

Entertaining, but I have to bring this one point up.

 

While I was okay with Liar's Due, the fact is, it's a carbon copy of a short story I read in a literature textbook in high school, with a 30k face. In the original short story, it's in 1950's Cold War America. Basically, two aliens do the same trolling the Alpha Legion spy does to get the locals to fight each other. I'm surprised you didn't catch it, but then again, I have no idea who's read this short story beyond myself. 

 

Fascinating, i'd love to find out what story that is. 

 

Also, sounds like the premise of a "twilight zone" episode as well 

 

 

 

Found the episode i was thinking of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street

 

Wow, it even has the bit where someone is accidentally shot. I'm going to update my review to include this. 

[Legatus]

The codex could work as an idea, but it would make marines really easy to beat if their enemies (say a chapter that went rogue) had a copy of it and could simulate with it.

 

 

Which would be strange, since one of the core decrees of the Codex was the division of the Legions, made in the expectation that in the future more Space Marines Commanders could turn against the Imperium. So if one of the core aspects of the Codex was the fear that a Chapter would turn, it would be terrible if it would become useless as a fighting doctrine for the rest of the Imperial Chapters in that very same instant.

[vomkrieg]

 

The codex could work as an idea, but it would make marines really easy to beat if their enemies (say a chapter that went rogue) had a copy of it and could simulate with it.

 

 

Which would be strange, since one of the core decrees of the Codex was the division of the Legions, made in the expectation that in the future more Space Marines Commanders could turn against the Imperium. So if one of the core aspects of the Codex was the fear that a Chapter would turn, it would be terrible if it would become useless as a fighting doctrine for the rest of the Imperial Chapters in that very same instant.

 

 

That's a paradox right there, and why something like the codex, as portrayed by McNeill is a bit silly.

 

Tenants, maxims, ideas and recommendations in the form of an awesomely complicated "manual on war' makes way more sense than the algorithm idea for just that reason. Maxims, like "art of war" allow for adaption easily. 

[vomkrieg]

Book 17, the Outcast Dead is up. 

[TDF]

Apparently the timeline is explained in the audio drama Wolf Hunt. Haven't listened to it, but I think it's something like this:

 

Magnus' message arrives and the Golden Throne is able to temporarily contain it --> Garro shows up and tells everyone about the Heresy --> Outcast Dead are taken into custody --> Pyschic containment breaks down and stuff blows up

[Jareddm]

Apparently the timeline is explained in the audio drama Wolf Hunt. Haven't listened to it, but I think it's something like this:Magnus' message arrives and the Golden Throne is able to temporarily contain it --> Garro shows up and tells everyone about the Heresy --> Outcast Dead are taken into custody --> Pyschic containment breaks down and stuff blows up

This. The events of Outcast Dead are taking place nearly two years after Magnus arrived on Terra. It was only now that the containment within the Webway Project broke out onto the rest of Terra. But annoyingly, there's nothing in the book that makes this clear.

[vomkrieg]

 

Apparently the timeline is explained in the audio drama Wolf Hunt. Haven't listened to it, but I think it's something like this:Magnus' message arrives and the Golden Throne is able to temporarily contain it --> Garro shows up and tells everyone about the Heresy --> Outcast Dead are taken into custody --> Pyschic containment breaks down and stuff blows up

This. The events of Outcast Dead are taking place nearly two years after Magnus arrived on Terra. It was only now that the containment within the Webway Project broke out onto the rest of Terra. But annoyingly, there's nothing in the book that makes this clear.

 

 

Ok, that makes some sense, because I was totally and utterly confused as to how the timeline seemed jumbled up. It completely killed the pacing of the story and really disconnected me from it. Especially as Arthava was all "he is coming here, he is coming", as opposed to "he was here a while back but his power is about to break free"

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hey vomkrieg I have been reading your Horus heresy book reviews... well at least Horus rising and Einstein. Love the reviews there funny, straight to the point, and informative. My favorote line is your description of garro. He out lokens loken. Lol. Keep up the great work!

[vomkrieg]

Hey vomkrieg I have been reading your Horus heresy book reviews... well at least Horus rising and Einstein. Love the reviews there funny, straight to the point, and informative. My favorote line is your description of garro. He out lokens loken. Lol. Keep up the great work!

it's been so long since i wrote that I forgot I said that and laughed at your comment as though it was a new joke :)

 

I think my favorite review so far is the Battle for the Abyss one. It felt good to just let my feelings about that book out.