Vash113 Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 One of the things that has surprised me with the recent Horus Heresy material is how widely the Edict of Nikaea is disregarded amongst the loyalist legions. I'm just a few pages into the Unremembered Empire and it's already mentioned how Guilliman simply repealed the Edict after Calth. The Blood Angels Librarians took action on Signus Prime, Lion El'Johnson reinstated the Dark Angels Librarians when his flagship came under daemonic assault. The Space Wolves and White Scars never stopped using their respective psykers at all, the Rune Priests and Stormseers persisted right on through. Scattered remnants of the legions at Istvaan resumed use of their psykers. The Imperial Fists never dissolved their Librarius at all, that is to say, the Librarians of the Imperial Fists were never stripped of their weapons and wargear and scattered amongst the Legion as line brothers, instead Rogal Dorn sealed them with all their trappings in the heart of the Phalanx, just waiting to be called back into service at a moment's notice. Obviously faced with warp powers and daemons the use of Librarians is only sensible but I still find it strange that the loyalists in the Horus Heresy series are so quickly disregarding the Emperor's direct orders to do whatever they feel appropriate. What do you guys think about this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 The primarchs are faced with Deamons traitors uncertain loyalties it's all out war you use anything available to you. It's not simply ohh dad said not to so we won't listen or just brake our promise. Signnus was a desmonic incursion with no weapons to combat it and sanguinus had fallen would you let your primarch fall or would you protect him however you could Calth has been all but destroyed your legion crippled and traitorous scum running wild using the warp as a weapon The white scars never received the edict as they were cut off in chondax The wolves are a different story altogether which I won't touch as it usually closes a thread The IF rather then risking redeployment and causing the edict to break decided locking them away was a better choice The DA could only combat a deamonic attack with librarians so they used them as a weapon The SoH EC DG sallies RG IW NL AL All obeyed The WE barely had any and didn't care about them anyway And WB are just traitors straight up Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493051 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Did the Scar's just carry on? If so, thats even more hilarious. What a complete waste it all turned into then, perhaps in an effort of jacking up the 'tragic' of the Thousand Sons, but if the Scars just kept on with it (Wolves get a pass, I dont want to talk about it) then...yeah. Oh snap, Jaspcat has this covered. +1 to you sir! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493053 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Damn straight I know my fluff Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 And so the Thousand sons fell for nothing, yes it is more tragic, but it is also annoying. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493158 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Remember when our beloved Emps banned sorcery not psychic powers... Pepperidge Farm remembers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyMonkey Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Remember when the Emperor wasn't a hypocrite? Pepperidge Farm can't remember either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493220 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noserenda Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 The Alpha Legion just stopped calling them Librarians afaik they kept using their powers too :)It doesent really lessen Magnus' mistakes though, quite the opposite in fact when you realise that if he had been less arrogant he could have avoided the whole mess even more! (As a lot of his brothers did). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larkyn Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 I thought there were some White Scars during Magnus' trial? Or maybe I'm just misremembering, it's been a while since I read A Thousand Sons. And Jasp hit it pretty much on the nose. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493253 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carach Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 a white scars librarian does indeed speak against dismantling the librarian order during a thousand sons (or prospero burns? i cant remember which) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493265 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vash113 Posted October 12, 2013 Author Share Posted October 12, 2013 The primarchs are faced with Deamons traitors uncertain loyalties it's all out war you use anything available to you. It's not simply ohh dad said not to so we won't listen or just brake our promise. I didn't say the decision did not make sense, just that it's still a bit surprising. After all Magnus' refusal to follow the Edict led to the Thousand Sons being slaughtered. It's not just disobeying a father's wishes, it is disregarding an Imperial Edict, that's quite something. Also the White Scars did receive the Edict, Targutai Yesugei, Chief Librarian of the White Scars was present at Nikaea and afterwards was told to remain behind on Chogoris and to refrain from exercising his powers... sort of. The White Scars did not actually disband, discontinue or otherwise stop using Stormseers, they just sort of, left them behind for a while. Recent material on Malcador's Knights Errants explains that Dorn did not lock up his Librarians as a better means of following the Edict but as a specific choice to keep his most potent weapon safe and ready at the heart of his fortress. Essentially preparing for the Edict to fail. As for the traitor legions well, there really isn't any indication as to whether they did or did not follow the Edict that I recall. Even if most followed the Edict I still find it surprising so many of the loyalists so quickly abandoned it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493277 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 12, 2013 Share Posted October 12, 2013 Actually, no. It's what Magnus does in the act of disobedience that gets he and his sons slaughtered. Had the Thousand Sons been like many of the Loyalist Legions, using their powers only to survive against the Warp and its denizens, things might have been different. But they didn't. Instead, they performed blood magic and tore a giant gaping hole into the defenses of the Imperial freaking Palace. The Emperor told them to put down their guns, they are too dangerous. Then an enemy appeared, that would kill them with greater ease now that they are unarmed. One picks up his gun and fires off a warning, accidentally kneecapping Pop. Some others picked up their guns, either off the ground or out of pockets they had previously promised were empty, and started shooting at the enemy. Of course Magnus gets in trouble for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493289 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 There's a difference in between littering and walking into a police station, throwing your trash over the dispatchers desk, and punching the police chief in the mouth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I thought the Big E just dispatched the Wolves to drag Magnus back to Terra, and it was Horus who ordered them to attack. If so, then it wasn't his use of sorcery that got Magnus killed, it was was Erebus being tricksy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493445 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It wasn't Erebus at all Horus had already turned after davin, it was pre istvaan and he said to Russ maybe a more permanent solution was required Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 At this rate I may change my Companies fluff to that they plan the downfall of Magnus, seeking the knowledge and means to do so, in revenge og his botched handeling if his legion and Nikea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493530 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtalos Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It does seem that the Traitor legions where more willing to follow the Edict. Was this some long drawn out plan on behalf of Chaos ? The Death Guard hate Psykers, World Eaters cant be around them and Emperors Children have none as they are seen as unpure. Not sure on Iron Warriors or Sons of Horus but it seems most Traitor legions did not have any Librarians . Of course I suppose that all changes now that are Traitors. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 I think what you need to take into account is the millitary minds of the Primarchs. When given the facts; your brothers liegion are attacking yours, their fighting along side warp creatures only vaunerable to pskyers, all your pskyers have been stood down a few months to a year before. It's not hard to put two and two together and go 'we've been disarmed here' I mean I'm sure Gulliman, Russ, the Khan etc would have stood down their librarians again if they reached Terra and the Emperor repeated himself to them but at the time those powers were all they had open to them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493671 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durfast Spiritwolf Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Suffice to say, Big Red acknowledges his mistake And so the Thousand sons fell for nothing, yes it is more tragic, but it is also annoying. The latest chapter of Scars has something to say on this, Suffice to say, Big Red acknowledges his mistake Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493681 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Jaspcat, on 13 Oct 2013 - 10:11, said: It wasn't Erebus at all Horus had already turned after davin, it was pre istvaan and he said to Russ maybe a more permanent solution was required It is hard for me to believe that Horus was involved. Custodians and sisters of silence were on Prospero, so big E should know what exactly is going on and what will be the result. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyMonkey Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 Jaspcat, on 13 Oct 2013 - 10:11, said: It wasn't Erebus at all Horus had already turned after davin, it was pre istvaan and he said to Russ maybe a more permanent solution was required It is hard for me to believe that Horus was involved. Custodians and sisters of silence were on Prospero, so big E should know what exactly is going on and what will be the result. Thank You. This is my opinion as well Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It isn't like either group had a direct link to the Big E. And remember, Horus was the Warmaster, the Emperor's proxy in the undertaking of the Great Crusade. I sincerely doubt that the orders and auxiliary groups did not go through Horus on its way to Russ. Since Horus' words, even on their own, are the Emperor's by proxy, none involved would have any reason to doubt that they are following the Emperor's orders. We see in Scars how badly the reality of the situation hits Russ, and is a nice set up for their 40k selves, who disregard the Emperor's proxies all day e'ry day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It's set in stone that horus manipulated Russ valdor and the sisters. Not once not twice but 3 times it's been mentioned Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Sirus Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It does seem that the Traitor legions where more willing to follow the Edict. Was this some long drawn out plan on behalf of Chaos ? The Death Guard hate Psykers, World Eaters cant be around them and Emperors Children have none as they are seen as unpure. Not sure on Iron Warriors or Sons of Horus but it seems most Traitor legions did not have any Librarians . Of course I suppose that all changes now that are Traitors. As you have just said they really didn't have that many pskers, which says less people to know about the dangers of the warp, in turn painting all those legions as easy targets. The Edict was a way of disarming loyalists imo, so of course the traitor legions would seem to follow it, if big E goes handing out tuts and reprimanding those that haven't listened then why not get him to thin out his own defences. As for the disregard by loyalist primarchs it all comes down to need, as in we need a weapon that can stop these things/I need to survive to bring warning to my legion and Emperor. Its just one of those dilemmas that will always be in 30/40k, we hate pskers but need them more than what we'll say. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 13, 2013 Share Posted October 13, 2013 It wasn't a plan set up to disarm the loyalists. Even lorgar defended the librarius. Mortarion went running to dad about Magnus and the emperor had already shared info on the warp with Magnus he trusted Magnus and that trust was broken. He wanted to stop people slipping off the right path so banned use of abilities in the legions Psykers were already outlawed and black ships were harvesting them. The emperor was trying to stop the warp influencing humanity Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/#findComment-3493996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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