DarthMarko Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 And so the Thousand sons fell for nothing, yes it is more tragic, but it is also annoying. Yeah, they only fell for fething up a webway, and you know screwing up mankind 4life...O' yeah, and don't forget Tzeench owning them through Magnus deal...Also Cyclop's siding with Horus (you know, the guy who gave the kill order ) is clearly show of loyality...Poor TS, I'm playing the galaxy smallest violin for them ....Don't get me wrong, wolves were a massive douchebags too, who didn't help and their nature perfectly served for manipulation... There's a difference in between littering and walking into a police station, throwing your trash over the dispatchers desk, and punching the police chief in the mouth. I almost pied myself from laughter...+1 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3494271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deus Imperator Vult Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 It's set in stone that horus manipulated Russ valdor and the sisters. Not once not twice but 3 times it's been mentioned Perhaps manipluation is too strong a word. I mean the entire situation was a tinderbox before you introduce the Wolves. I mean when the Emperor gave Lorgar a turn on the naughty step he used the Ultras now I'm not saying that they are passive but which would you rather be arrested by a strict adherant to the law or a blood crazed viking? Really the moment Horus knew the Russ was being sent to speak to Magnus he may as well have brushed his hands together like 'well that problems solved' And so the Thousand sons fell for nothing, yes it is more tragic, but it is also annoying. Yeah, they only fell for fething up a webway, and you know screwing up mankind 4life...O' yeah, and don't forget Tzeench owning them through Magnus deal...Also Cyclop's siding with Horus (you know, the guy who gave the kill order ) is clearly show of loyality...Poor TS, I'm playing the galaxy smallest violin for them ....Don't get me wrong, wolves were a massive douchebags too, who didn't help and their nature perfectly served for manipulation... Personally, I still thing the biggest tragady of Magnus atleast is the fact he tries to save Horus when he's in the coma from the Davinites... If Horus had listened he'd have woken up blown Erebus out of the damned airlock. Without his staying power Lorgars little heresy would have died with him. Magnus was very nearly the biggest hero in the franchise! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3494652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karthak Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Jaspcat, on 13 Oct 2013 - 10:11, said: It wasn't Erebus at all Horus had already turned after davin, it was pre istvaan and he said to Russ maybe a more permanent solution was required It is hard for me to believe that Horus was involved. Custodians and sisters of silence were on Prospero, so big E should know what exactly is going on and what will be the result. Thank You. This is my opinion as well Aaron Dembski-Bowden has said that Horus adjusted Russ's orders (it's in one of his posts on this very forum). In Scars Malcador also mentions that the order was to bring Magnus back to Terra. I don't know why people argue over this so much. From False Gods: ‘But what of Magnus?’ asked Maloghurst urgently, ‘What happens when Leman Russ returns him to Terra?’ Horus smiled. ‘Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus’s treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was… suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort.’ Maloghurst returned Horus’s smile. ‘Magnus will not leave Prospero alive.’ ‘No,’ agreed Horus. ‘He will not.’ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3494687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Seeing as I am now converting a librarian for my Heresy post Massacre Salamanders, does anyone know if Pychic hoods were used, and which colours if the blue had come in yet on loyalist librarians? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497197 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The hoods were there all along in the Librarius. Fear to Tread repeatedly makes mention of the librarians surrendering their psychic hoods. As for the blue armor, I keep thinking that was a Codex Astartes addition, and don't recall any mention of it in the Great Crusade. The techmarines wear the red of Mars already, and the apothecarion wear white mixed in with their heraldry just like mortal medicae, but I don't recall any mention of any librarians in blue armor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valearx Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The Emperor is/was a pragmatist - it's unthinkable that he would decide to start sanctioning Loyalist legions that re-activated their Librarii in the middle of the greatest civil war in galactic history. Highly likely that the faithful Primarchs knew this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.G.J. Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 For me, part of the problem is the lack of information about the Edict of Nikaea itself. What I mean by that is that what we know primarily comes from little snippets and speeches from some of the major proponents and opponents of the librarius and a few events that occurred around the time of the Council. Yet we also know that the entire affair was of immense gravity and import, involving the congregation of the primarchs + Emp and the construction of an entire building inside a volcano by Perturabo. So even with the speeches and descriptions we do have, I think it's safe to say that we are still missing a lot of information. What was the totality of the Emperor's declaration? I.e. was there a document (which one supposes there would be) or was it just a quick verbal, "hey sons, disband your libraria. That is all." Were there other considerations brought up such as legal language that would define the use of psychic powers? Exceptions to the rule? What about humies who were psychers and fell under the legions' control? There's a host of concerns that a general and commander would have about this in the wake of a ban or a call for disarmament. Think about nuclear weapons in our day. They are (technically) banned, yet countries have them for security/determent and there's a ton of legal, political, and academic verbage thrown around about global nuclear disarmament. I don't want to equate or conflate the two, but merely point out that there would likely be concerns raised by the primarchs about details and nuances before and after the Emp's decree. We know nothing about that. We only know a few major speech snippets and the overarching outcome without any detail as to its ultimate wording beyond a few sentences. So were the loyalists somewhat hypocritical? Maybe. Depends on what the totality of the decree said and its wording. I think per usual there's ample room for different interpretations, which makes it fun to speculate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The edict was absolute only astropaths and navigators were sanctioned all others were banned and the punishment was extremis. He did consider every option. In the end his decree was final there were no exceptions outside of the 2 positions the imperium needed to function Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497545 Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.G.J. Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The edict was absolute only astropaths and navigators were sanctioned all others were banned and the punishment was extremis. He did consider every option. In the end his decree was final there were no exceptions outside of the 2 positions the imperium needed to function Right, but the decree that we have is like what? 5 very short paragraphs long? And most of it is flowery oratory with very little decreeing other than "Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers." This is a galactic empire we're talking about here. This is a military machine comprised of millions of personnel and hundreds of thousands of space marines. One would think this necessitates just a little bureaucracy and legal documentation beyond "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me." That's what I mean when I say that even though there's been a lot written (comparatively) about the Edict of Nikaea, we still probably know very little. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497557 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The edict was absolute only astropaths and navigators were sanctioned all others were banned and the punishment was extremis. He did consider every option. In the end his decree was final there were no exceptions outside of the 2 positions the imperium needed to function Right, but the decree that we have is like what? 5 very short paragraphs long? And most of it is flowery oratory with very little decreeing other than "Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers." This is a galactic empire we're talking about here. This is a military machine comprised of millions of personnel and hundreds of thousands of space marines. One would think this necessitates just a little bureaucracy and legal documentation beyond "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me." That's what I mean when I say that even though there's been a lot written (comparatively) about the Edict of Nikaea, we still probably know very little. Maybe one of the lost primarchs was a lawyer... which is why the Emperor got rid of him, because nothing was authenticated or co signed....:P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The edict was absolute only astropaths and navigators were sanctioned all others were banned and the punishment was extremis. He did consider every option. In the end his decree was final there were no exceptions outside of the 2 positions the imperium needed to function Right, but the decree that we have is like what? 5 very short paragraphs long? And most of it is flowery oratory with very little decreeing other than "Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers." This is a galactic empire we're talking about here. This is a military machine comprised of millions of personnel and hundreds of thousands of space marines. One would think this necessitates just a little bureaucracy and legal documentation beyond "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me." That's what I mean when I say that even though there's been a lot written (comparatively) about the Edict of Nikaea, we still probably know very little. Jaspcat, what I think EGJ is hitting on at, is the same exact dead end most of the debates relating to the KSons, SW and Nikea usually goes to: Just what was the Emperor's point of view? Is there something that fully explains what he counts as a Librarius department out there? Are there clauses and exceptions? So on, so forth. Look at all the different interpretations that have popped up. Some say Librarius translates to "Any corp of psykers within the Legiones Astartes are to be disbanded and said psykers can no longer practice witch-craft." Others say that it only relates to those who bore the title of Librarian, or were involved in the proliferation of anything penned by Magnus. Even if it be as a notary. That's three different interpretations based off of the exact same sentence. And each view swears there is no room for argument. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497573 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 The emperor decreed to the administratum from terra(iirc he bought literally all of them from terra) the primarchs that were present, Magnus lorgar sanguinus fulgrim mortarion Russ and malcadore the custodes. It's not like it was a mass text he decreed that it was over the legions had representatives and there were millions present a whole bloody world was turned into a court room. On the scale it was done I guarantee every legion expeditionary fleet and military force within a month would have stopped utilising psykers. Personally working for the govt I see the second one piece of legislation is released the next day everyone is in a course and are redoing documentation. Same would apply for the emperor his word is law Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497575 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 "Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers." No departments no individuals no trainers and no powers that sums it up you break one your :cussed. I can't stress that the edict was in place to stop consorting with the warp. I can't say it was planned by chaos. What I can say is the emperor in his 30000+ yrs alive wouldn't just say hey guys stop it and leave it at that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Not denying that. But look at all the interpretations/reactions within the fluff. The Space Wolves think they're okay. White Scars and Imperial Fists think if they keep them isolated from view, it'll be okay. Magnus is being the teenage girl whose still sneaking out to go to the rock concert after being told no. Angron doesn't care. The Alpha Legion and Word Bearers decide to go Pinky and the Brain and use the opportunity to enhance their psyker combat tactics. Only the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Death Guard, Raven Guard and Ultramarines have been shown to obey the Edict in any meaningful matter. Yet depending on your point of view, that only leaves five Legions actually obeying the Edict while seven more are breaking it and who knows about the other six? And as the point of view changes, it all keeps changing. Based on what each Legion either interpreted the Emperor's words as saying(Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Space Wolves, Ultramarines and White Scars), or chose to do anyways(Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers and World Eaters). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Exactly, I agree yet what we have been given is the emperors words there really is no way to misinterprete from a mortals view but as I've said previously we can't comprehend what a SM or primarchs mental processes are but the edict was disregarded at the start of the heresy in certain situations to combat the treachery. The WS were never going to stop as it was they're nature and culture to sip from the cup as seen in brotherhood of the storm. BA were under assualt as were the UM DA . RG and SAL haven't shown to have reinstated it but that could be due to numbers. IH don't utilise them. SW are just not worth trying to explain and IF sort of abided but kept it as a out if sight out of mind worse case scenario weapon Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Some might say they know what the Emperor meant by his words, whatever those words are. Sure, that's what he said, but what he meant was . . . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 And I think that's the problem with Russ and dorn. Angron didn't care Jaghati would refuse to curb nature Other then those 4 I believe the rest would have abided Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497611 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 Exactly, I agree yet what we have been given is the emperors words there really is no way to misinterprete from a mortals view but as I've said previously we can't comprehend what a SM or primarchs mental processes are but the edict was disregarded at the start of the heresy in certain situations to combat the treachery. The WS were never going to stop as it was they're nature and culture to sip from the cup as seen in brotherhood of the storm. BA were under assualt as were the UM DA . RG and SAL haven't shown to have reinstated it but that could be due to numbers. IH don't utilise them. SW are just not worth trying to explain and IF sort of abided but kept it as a out if sight out of mind worse case scenario weapon And that's what EGJ is talking about. Was there something else somewhere that actually left something open to interpretation to the minds of these Primarchs beyond just what they(or their representatives) heard. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
facmanpob Posted October 16, 2013 Share Posted October 16, 2013 This is essentially an argument about RAW vs RAI ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281792-disregard-of-the-edict-of-nikaea/page/2/#findComment-3497634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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