Puppetmaster

[Gentlemanloser]

There's nothing I can find quickly that states you can only shoot once maximum per shooting phase.

You can only use one weapon per phases, but that doesn't limit the number of times you can make a shooting attack.

What does limit that is summary of step 1 which states;

but has not yet, fire this turn

So you could not keep repeating steps 1-5 again and again.

Puppet Master just states you make a shooting attack immediately, not that you have to follow usual shooting rules. (Page 432)

Edit: If the usual shooting rules applied, you couldn't make the shooting attack. As it's not your shooting Phase. All be it that's the point of the Power. It makes the unit 'count-as' one of yours, and gets round this restriction.

Edit2: slightly rambling here. /sigh

The *basic* rule of Step 1 of the Shooting Attack conflicts with, and loses out to, the *advanced* rule of Puppeteer, which tells you to immediately make a shooting attack.

[Cactus]

I think the fundamental problem is that "shooting attack" isn't a defined rules term in the way that "Leadership test" or "combat speed" are. Seriously, I've just browsed the rules for shooting, shooting with vehicles, shooting with characters and shooting at buildings, as well as the game summary at the back. I can see two (2!) instances of "shooting attack" and they've both been quoted in this thread. Several times.

 

My advice is to dice off for it and submit the question to GW's FAQ team.

[[TA]Typher]

I think the fundamental problem is that "shooting attack" isn't a defined rules term in the way that "Leadership test" or "combat speed" are. Seriously, I've just browsed the rules for shooting, shooting with vehicles, shooting with characters and shooting at buildings, as well as the game summary at the back. I can see two (2!) instances of "shooting attack" and they've both been quoted in this thread. Several times.

 

My advice is to dice off for it and submit the question to GW's FAQ team.

 

 

I would agree. However if the power wouldn't tip the outcome of the game I might talk about it with them, but let my opponent do it anyway.

[Fibonacci]

The assault cannon makes a shooting attack

The assault cannon is not the target of the power.  The Land Raider is.

 

Even in your example, the Assault Cannon fires 3 shots.  Three.  Plural.  Can you not see that a single attack can be composed of multiple shots?  How does this not transpose to the model?  The model is what is being controled.  You are imposing a "one weapon" rule where none exists.

 

 

Circular.

 

We are at an impass.  To me the act of attacking being singluar does not limit how that attack is performed.  An attack with all weapons is still an attack.  A shot is is a whole different thing than an attack.  A weapon si a different thing than a modle.  Trying to impose this artifical limits is like debating how many steps are in a walk or how many feet are used.   I just don't see how the whole of an action cannot be singluar. 

[Gentlemanloser]

If anyone would like to try to argue that you can only use a single weapon, could they please tackle my examples, and explain where the RAW is wrong.

 

A Shooting Attack is resolved when the Wound Pool empties.  The Wound Pool is made up of all the shots of the shooting attack that have successfully Wounded.  This could be made up of different Strength, AP and *special rules*.

 

As evidenced by this, by RAW a 'shooting attack' can be comprised of multiple shots, from multiple different weapons.

 

I have already quoted the relevant entries and page numbers.

 

If you think this is incorrect, you *will* have to show why.

[infornography]

Ultimately, Puppet Master is generally not overpowered, even with firing an entire volley instead of a single weapon.  It uses the firing model's shooting phase and a warp charge, the psyker power must pass, then the enemy must fail to deny the witch, then you must hit with the power.  When it works, you THEN have to roll to hit with the unit's weapons which could still easily enough miss or fail to wound/damage the target who then may get a save.  Plenty of opportunities for the power to do nothing at all. 

 

Even relatively cheap psykers cost a decent number of points.  Having that unit have nothing to show for it's turn is costly. 

 

The biggest exception to me thinking this power is balanced is that it works just fine on titans, gargantuan creatures, and superheavy units.  That is more an issue I have with the rules for apocalypse than with this power though.

[Lysere]

Ultimately, Puppet Master is generally not overpowered, even with firing an entire volley instead of a single weapon.  It uses the firing model's shooting phase and a warp charge, the psyker power must pass, then the enemy must fail to deny the witch, then you must hit with the power.  When it works, you THEN have to roll to hit with the unit's weapons which could still easily enough miss or fail to wound/damage the target who then may get a save.  Plenty of opportunities for the power to do nothing at all. 

 

Even relatively cheap psykers cost a decent number of points.  Having that unit have nothing to show for it's turn is costly. 

 

The biggest exception to me thinking this power is balanced is that it works just fine on titans, gargantuan creatures, and superheavy units.  That is more an issue I have with the rules for apocalypse than with this power though.

 

The balancing factor for Titans is the host of rules designed to compensate for one side losing, plus the fact that superheavies can kill a lot of stuff in one go, possible the annoying psyker that is trying to get within puppet master range. Apoc isn't exactly known for being balanced.

[Ming]

I have not been often on the receiving end of puppetmaster. But I have had opponents with 2+ MCs using the spell. I think I kitigate the damage to myself since I don't rely on a single unit that has overwhelming firepower that could be used against myself. And so far, I've not been the brunt of an opponent using the same spell on the same model or unit multiple times in his turn.

 

That said, it does have a casting range to stay away from, and it certainly has to be rolled for, the deny roll is pretty week statistically. Again, the best thing is to target the puppetmaster unit first as a priority if you have a decent chance to remove it. Likely the opponent uses it as a key point of his game plan.

 

Regardless, if you play me, I'd argue that you cannot target the same thing multiple times, as the core element of a shooting phase is that each model can only fire its 1 or so weapons just once.

 

Overall, the issue becomes even more absurd if for example, in my shooting phase, a model can only snapfire (say due to movement), and then in the opponent's shooting phase be forced to fire at normal BS because the model did not move in his movement phase.

 

It will be interesting to see how the "tournament committees" handle this in writing.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Regardless, if you play me, I'd argue that you cannot target the same
thing multiple times, as the core element of a shooting phase is that
each model can only fire its 1 or so weapons just once.

 

As said above, that a basic versus advanced rule conflict.

 

The advanced rules for Psychic Powers win out over the basic shooting rules.

[Magpie]

I think Coteaz' "I've been expecting you" makes it pretty clear that a unit can make multiple shooting attacks in a turn if the criteria of a special rule are met. In his case a unit arriving within 12" in this case having Puppetmaster cast upon you.