When GKs get 6th ed codex

[Gentlemanloser]

No RD, we shouldn't have to settle like that.  There's no need to capitulate, when we can voice what we (all, not just GK players.  Hai 'nids!) deserve.

 

Besides, aren't the current rumours that 6th is going to last *years*.  7th won't come round any time soon I'm betting.

 

Also, why shouldn't every 'dex have the ability or opportunity to win a tournament?  Isn't that the overall desired goal?  That skill determines the outcomes, not which model line you decided to purchase?

[InstantKarma]

On the subject of deepstrike they could alwats let us have a deepstrike assault similar to the drop pod rules of C:SM. How would people feel about some kind of jetbike unit as we only have 2 FA units.

 

In response to the Deep Strike similar to Drop Pod Aassult, wouldn't that pretty much be giving you Deathwing Assault, only not as flexible?

 

Ah Space Marine Jetbikes, now that would be a sight (and I'd also then expect more people taking GK as allies).

[Brother Captain Sirus]

 

On the subject of deepstrike they could alwats let us have a deepstrike assault similar to the drop pod rules of C:SM. How would people feel about some kind of jetbike unit as we only have 2 FA units.

In response to the Deep Strike similar to Drop Pod Aassult, wouldn't that pretty much be giving you Deathwing Assault, only not as flexible?

Ah Space Marine Jetbikes, now that would be a site (and I'd also then expect more people taking GK as allies).

Yes it would be like a limited deathwing assault but i,d be ok with that means our rules can be used better but doesnt take away from DA and the jetbikes just fits in with the rare tech knights are supposed to have imho

[Valerian]

The Teleport Assault issue is, I think, one of the most important to fix in a future Grey Knights codex, which is why I put it near the top of the list in my earlier post:

Teleport Assault - Give all Grey Knights units the ability to Deep Strike via Teleportation. Many units already have the ability, but a handful of characters and units do not. It really hurts your options for attaching Independent Characters, for example, when the unit can Deep Strike, but the Character cannot. Do something similar to Deathwing Assault, where any/all of your Grey Knights units can be held in Reserve (no 50% limit).

As has been pointed out by others (notably Gentlemenloser), we're supposed to have some of the best Operational Mobility/Deployment options according to fluff, but end up having some of the worst when compared to other Marines. Without a "safety net" Deep Strike of a handful of units via Teleportation will always be outclassed by Drop Pods - they are better in every way. Deathwing Assault is exactly what all Grey Knights should have, or something very similar. In my minds' eye I envision a Grey Knights player deploying a few Servo Skulls onto the board in key positions, Teleporting squads of Strike Knights or Interceptors down in the vicinity of the Skulls in the 1st Turn, and bringing down the rest of the force (Terminators, Dreadknights, etc.) in the 2nd Turn keying off of Teleport Homers carried by the Strike/Interceptor Justicars.

 

V

[Brother Captain Sirus]

That sounds pretty much perfect velarian. That would make me very happy deploying like that. No footslogging 6 miles and no transports just feet on the ground as it were.

[hisdudeness]

 

Also, why shouldn't every 'dex have the ability or opportunity to win a tournament?  Isn't that the overall desired goal?  That skill determines the outcomes, not which model line you decided to purchase?

No, the desired goal is to sell models on a set rotation to have a stable revenue line. Which they do by hiding releases and a new codex every 2-3 months and holiday shinies. GW is finally moving back to fluff and away from comp play, which is one of the best things they could have done.

[Gentlemanloser]

Best for them, worst for us.

 

I want to play the army *I* like.  Not be forced to move to the next flavour of the month army released, as it's head and shoulders above everyone else.

 

And folk complained about Codex creep in 5th.

 

Now, we have worse creep, with additional pay to win supplements.

 

Current 40k is the absolute worst it has ever been for the player.

 

Edit: Rip Tides, Fluffy?  Wraith Knights, Fluffy?

 

Nope.  GW just desire to SELL MOAR BIG KITS!!!! For profit.

 

And game balance and fluff be damned.

 

I mean Centurion.  Power armour in your Power Armour.  Dreads and Terminators fit the roles that Centurions are supposed to provide.

 

But hey, if everything is canon, and the fluff is being retconned left, right and centre, it's all fluffy, right!

[hisdudeness]

I will admit the mecha trend is not fluff but pure money grab. There are much better ways to add MCs to the armies...and not all armies need a MC. I would have liked to see MCs stay with Nids, daemons, and maybe chaos or orks. Just tweak current units or the rest to have the option to be MC killers.

 

I believe the main reason GK or not competiive is based on model count. In a game based on more rolls equal more death, GK have a hard time.

[Gentlemanloser]

Couldn't have put it better.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Mmmkay. I'll leave you guys to wishlisting. Just saying, GW isn't going to revisit us until 7th. I'll put money on it. 

[Gentlemanloser]

You don't think we'll get a supplement?

 

I'd bet on us getting one of those before the next edition in the least! ;)

[number6]

Current 40k is the absolute worst it has ever been for the player.

I'd say that depends on what you want out of the game. Speaking for myself, I am having more fun with 6e 40K than with any previous edition. For reals.

That said, I would also say the state of "competitive" tournament play is wonky and unbalanced. I think it has less to do with cross-Codex balance issues and more to do with the nature of the way units trump each other in certain game situations. The game feels a bit more rock-paper-scissors than it ever has to me. However, there is still enough skill involved in knowing the metagame (and designing your list appropriately) and knowing how to control game tempo, flow, and unit match ups that a skilled player can make do even with "subpar" codexes. (Tyranids excepted ... but that is all due to change in November if rumors hold true. )

All that said, I should confess that I play very few tournaments any more. I've become much more casual once 6e hit the streets, and am actually happier for it. And 6e is absolutely FUN for casual play. So I don't often expect to face 3 Riptides or 3 Heldrakes when I hit tables. (Not anymore, at least. ) This frees all of us up to experiment not only with "bad" units, but also with all the potential unlocked by the Allies matrix. More than ever, I can honestly say I have no idea what to expect when I hear somebody is playing army X or Y. Awesome.

This kind of freedom and variability was never a part of 40K prior to 6e. So I say: keep it coming, GW!

[Gentlemanloser]

How do you deem 'non competitive' lists?

 

One day I turn up with 2 NDK and my mates faces screw and proclaim me bringing an WAAC 'tourny' list, and have no fun.

 

The next I turn up with only Strike and they screw up again claiming I've bought a sub-par list, to troll them when I beat them.  Cuz you know, the GK are the eptiome of Broken in 40k.

 

Fun is too subjective to really measure.

 

I get the most enjoyment out of 40k when I have a close and balanced match with my opponent.  6th has made that far more difficult to achieve.

 

Invariably, one of us rolls the other other.  For one reason or another.

[number6]

"Competitive" lists are pretty easy to identify.

Tau: Does it have 2-3 Riptides, 2 missile broadside units, and 60 Kroot?

Eldar: Does it have 3+ Wave Serpents and 2-3 Wraithknights?

TauDar: Let's not even go there. Too scary to believe.

Marines: Is it mech MSU? (where most of the Troops are identical 5-man units)

Chaos Marines: Does it have 2-3 heldrakes and rely on Allies to carry the rest of the load?

Necrons: 3+ Night Scythes and a full Heavy Support with either 3x Annihilation barges, or perhaps 1-2 Doom Scythes mixed in.

And so on and so forth. GKs can, of course, play a variant of basic Marine MSU, only backed up by 2-3 NDKS, with perhaps a psyfleman dread (or two?) mixed in.

[Gentlemanloser]

TauDar: Let's not even go there. Too scary to believe.

:D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

TauDar: Let's not even go there. Too scary to believe.

Nightmare fuel

Marines: Is it Khan+Bikers? Tiggy+Dev Centurions?

FTFY. Mech is dead friend, if people are actually still doing that in 6th they deserve to lose.

Chaos Marines: Does it have 2-3 heldrakes and rely on Daemons to carry the rest of the load?

Actually they've more commonly the Ally detachment, as Daemons want to spam their FMC's as much as possible. But yeah, if its not Daemon primary, its triple Drake, triple Oblit, then Allies bring the scoring and melee options.

And so on and so forth. GKs can, of course, play a variant of basic Marine MSU, only backed up by 2-3 NDKS, with perhaps a psyfleman dread (or two?) mixed in.

I'm actually feeling an Air Cav list is better for us in 6th. Skyfire is still a mostly rare commodity, and like the Vendetta, Ravens are absurdly durable compared to the newer Flyers. AV12 rear is actually pretty relevant. Our biggest problem right now is that cover saves are meaningless against the power armies, and we're too low model count to duke it out at range with them either. DK's are good, but usually in larger games.

[Gentlemanloser]

Marines: Is it Khan+Bikers? Tiggy+Dev Centurions?

 

Indeed.

 

GoI + Relentless Grav Cannons = Hurt

 

But what is compeitive?  Having Tiggy + 6 Centurions?  Is Tiggy + 3 Centurions ok?  Is having 6 Dev Centurions ok?  Is replacing your normal Dev/Dreads with ML/TLLC Centurion ok?

 

Are WS Bikes non competitive without Khan?  Without taking 2 Grav / 1 Combi Grav and attack bikes?  Is 1 Grav per Bike Squad ok?

 

Where do we draw the line?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

If you want a Biker list, you want Khan. It's as simple as that. Count-as if you don't wanna be White Scars, but holy hell he just makes the list work. 

 

Tiggy+Dev Centurions you're probably best off committing to 5-6. Going a small squad just makes it too easy for a plasma drop or a Riptide to wipe you out before you've done much. Dev Centurions are perfectly fine without Tiggy of course, it's just with him they can re-roll CML shots and get a 4+ invul, not to mention stuff like Ignore Cover or firing at full BS when they Snap Shot in Overwatch (the Counterattack bonus is irrelevant usually). 

 

SM are still pretty new, but I'd put money on Khan and Tiggy to be strong picks in tournament lists. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Sorry, RD, wasn't trying to hammer out how to make those lists 'work'. ;)

 

Just ocntinuing the discussion with Number6 about not running 'competitve' lists.

 

I feels it's really a grey area about what a non fun list is, and how a player should (if they should) start to go around 'comping' themselves to make weaker lists.

 

And does an intentionally weak list equal fun?

 

If so, then sure;y the most fun you could get would be to run the weakest list possible.

[Brother Captain Sirus]

If you want a Biker list, you want Khan. It's as simple as that. Count-as if you don't wanna be White Scars, but holy hell he just makes the list work. 

 

Tiggy+Dev Centurions you're probably best off committing to 5-6. Going a small squad just makes it too easy for a plasma drop or a Riptide to wipe you out before you've done much. Dev Centurions are perfectly fine without Tiggy of course, it's just with him they can re-roll CML shots and get a 4+ invul, not to mention stuff like Ignore Cover or firing at full BS when they Snap Shot in Overwatch (the Counterattack bonus is irrelevant usually). 

 

SM are still pretty new, but I'd put money on Khan and Tiggy to be strong picks in tournament lists. 

A dev cent can only have an ML not a CML and they cant fire overwatch as they are SNP, this seems to be a common mistake atm.

 

And to return to topic, i would like to see a drop in the personal teleporter for NDK's as its far to high especalky when you can get wings for other MC's for less.

[hisdudeness]

The easiest way to tell if a list is "WAAC/competitive" is if it spams a unit or two and the scoring units are clones of each other. They are generally unimaginative. The times I really have a issue with those lists is the dude that always plays them but never has/will play in a tournie.

[Gentlemanloser]

My mate runs a 6 Tac Squad SM list, which are idnetically equipped.

 

I roll him every game.

 

His list isn't competitive, and he has little fun with the performance of his spam list (but desires to run a list that is 'core' marine units, tacs/assaults, rather than rarer non standard units)

[Oiad]

Mmmkay. I'll leave you guys to wishlisting. Just saying, GW isn't going to revisit us until 7th. I'll put money on it.

You don't think we'll get a supplement?

I'd bet on us getting one of those before the next edition in the least!

It seems at the speed GW are now producing codexes that they are aiming to get a release in for each army before 7E. If the next edition sticks to the four year release pattern then I can see them just about accomplishing that at this rate. However, much like 5E I expect that the Grey Knights/Inquisition codex will be amongst the last few to be released.

As for supplements, they appear to be little more than post-codex bonus packs. Pretty sure a codex will come first before they do that.

[boreas]

Seems all pretty sad... Show that 40k is overall a pretty crappy game. Lucky for me, I play with a gaming group that usually likes to try stuff and build non-internet lists. We also usually play 2vs2, with changes the dynamic and game balance (for the better, most of the time as, statistically a "better" codex will be matched with a "worst" codex).

 

As for a supplement, I could see GW making an Inquisition supplement after Codex: IG. That would sell theoretical plastic Stormtroopers, chimeras and inquisition models.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, there's always a Sisters-eque digital update, including dedicated Warlord and Psycher tables at a minimum. ;)