Greyall Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 We have a thread for reviewing and analysing Unremembered Empire, so let's leave most opinions on the book for that one. This here thread is being made because, whether you liked the book or not, it covers a previously unknow, massively important part of our favourite betrayal, pretty much drawing a Before/After line. It also establishes the mindset for some of the most important players in the Heresy and sets the stage for us to learn why some of those players were at Terra and others weren't. So I'm hitching a ride, adding a few other books and characters to the discussion and doing a midseason cleaning. The goal here is to analyse the immediate situation of each Legion and their very next step. Speculate, predict, do as you will. Warning: I'm going all-out on spoilers (it's in the title) Sons of Horus/Horus: Horus is set to appear in a near novel. On a larger scale, he's headed to Earth. Word Bearers: Rejoining Horus/Headed for Earth. Lorgar seems to be the lone top dog, now that he's purged a few non-believers and Kor Phaeron and Erebus' ambitions. Night Lords: The Legion is fragmented, and its top Captains incarcerated aboard the Dark Angel's flagship. Curze is loose on Macragge, bent on finishing what he started in Unremembered Empire. We know he ends up at Tsalgualsa, so he'll at least escape the Ultramarine's planet. Some Night Lords will be at Terra for the Siege, though it's unknown if Sevatar is one of them. Curze has never been mentioned to be at Terra, either. Dark Angels: The Lion is in Macragge, so his first order of business will be to finish Curze. He wants to get to Terra and has the best means to do so thanks to his super teleporter, so the question remains on why Sanguinius gets home and the Lion only gets there late. Blood Angels: Sanguinius' demeanour has taken a downturn. His Legion's dark side has been exposed - by demons no less -, one of his sons is now the incarnation of the entire Legion's bloodlust and now he must bear the burden of leadership on the assumption that his father died without him being there. He'll be at Terra, though why only him of the three who are in Macragge is a mistery. White Scars: 'Scars' is history, we know the Khan chooses the loyal side. What we don't know is what steps he takes until he reaches Terra. There is a schism within the Legion but the whole biker gang shows up at Terra - the rule with the Scars when finishing business seems to be 'their way (and the highway'. Salamanders: The Legion is decimated and mourning their Primarch. Vulkan is hinted by everything in UE and my great-grandmother's ghost to wake up once again, whole and ready for righteous hammering. Still, their numbers are pretty thin, so it falls to the Primarch to represent the scaly ones. Iron Hands: Mourning their Primarch but in much better condition than the Salamanders or Ravens. Which begs the question: why not go to Terra? 'All' they lost was the First Company, about 10.000 Marines. There's enough juice and mechanical rancor to make a difference at Terra. Ultramarines: Guilliman had one hell of a working day and is bound for more. He's just kept the Imperium afloat but both the Dark and Blood Angels have as much faith in the project as two overturned '97 Toyotas. And Curze wants to help them with that by burying the new Imperium and the three Primarchs along with it. Guilly stays in Ultramar, only getting to Terra much later. Why and how this will affect the Ultras' already flimsy reputation for unbound ambition is the million dollar question. Raven Guard: They're goners, their only venues are to disrupt traitor operations through stealth missions or head for Terra. Why not the last one? World Eaters: Primed and ready for some more headbashing. All that remains is for their last sane man, Khârn, to become a frothing superpowered killer. Their Primarch is now a Daemon Prince, which means every loyalist is a potential piñata. Imperial Fists: Dorn is overseeing Terra's defenses. Meanwhile, the Phall fleet is at Macragge. The Visions books told of their arrival on Terra, I think, but Pollux is currently on Macragge. Sigismund is disgraced which will in time grant him the ability to apply the messed up label to thirteen traitor dogs.Yay. Custodes: With the Emperor. They'll play a major part at Terra. Valdor may not have stopped being a sumb*tch yet. Thousand Sons: They'll be at Terra. As of 'Scars', Magnus' last shred of loyalty was held by the thinnest line, so by now he's burning in rage at the Imperium. It's unknown whether he'll join Horus with the same enthusiasm, since the Sons have never stopped believing they were wrongfully attacked. Space Wolves: The Fenrisians are going through karmic hell after Prospero. Russ has to deal with both numerical disadvantage and his own shame for being led to kill a brother (and his Legion), with the added effect of worsening his own army's reputation as overzealous lapdogs. The Emperor: At home, surrounded by the Custodes, Malcador and Dorn. As ever he seems to be taking this 'Time to die' thing rather calmly. Alpha Legion: On the brink of an intra-Legion war. They're supposed to be at Terra, but how many and under whose leadership (duh! Alpharius') is unknown. Emperor's Children: Fulgrim is now a Daemon. His Legion continues its downward spiral and detaches from their traitor brethren ever more. You'd think they're pretty much set to go to the Emperor's doorstep, but Angel Exterminatus showed us there are no limits for Fulgrim. Iron Warriors: Perturabo trusts only Horus now. He's rejoining the Warmaster, but let's see how long this trust lasts as Horus' corruption worses. He'll be at the Siege of Terra where he'll probably be a top player since it was recently found out that Perty, like Vulkan, does in fact rock extremely hard. Death Guard: Mortarion is supposed to be with Horus. Latest revelations in 'Scars' show us he might be regretting his allegiance, but it's probably too late for any true action on this. Typhon is perfectly happy wallowing in Warp-filth, though he was robbed of the super-teleporter by the Lion. They'll be heading to Terra in a trip so funky it makes my Friday nights seem like church-day. --------------- All eyes are still on Macragge. Curze will likely be pivotal in how the Imperium Secundus ends and [if] the brotherhood of loyalist Primarchs endures. But the cohesion of the traitor forces fares no better. Until now Horus has given free rein to his allies, maybe it's time he puts them in line, if it's not too late. 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Verity Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Pretty good stuff here dude, helpful to have things like this every now and again. Only small correction I have is I believe Curze already boomed Nostramo - I think he does this before the Dropsite Massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494640 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Pretty good stuff here dude, helpful to have things like this every now and again. Only small correction I have is I believe Curze already boomed Nostramo - I think he does this before the Dropsite Massacre. Aye, this man is correct. In Prince of Crows, Sevatar wonders aloud how the Terran Legionaries felt about the destruction of Nostramo in comparison to their Nostraman brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494644 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Right you are, mate. Corrected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494645 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Aye, Nostromo's destruction is at the end of the road the Night Lords run upon after Curze's attack on Dorn. Edit: Took too long to double-check, it appears. :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarSpirit Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 For the Raven Guard : The better choice is not necessarily to head for terra. By conducting hit and run operations and disrupting communications and supply lines, they hinder the traitor progression and buy time for the loyalist to fortify. Maybe their efforts doesn't gives much but i think it's part of the mindset of Corax right now (that and of course vengeance). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494691 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Hmm, true. A Primarch is always invaluable in defending your most precious site, but the same can apply to disrupting a traitor forge world or supply caravan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I know astartee's are the main players in the HH, but surely if you were a primarch seeking revenge you would recruit/lead other parts of the imperium fit for war and try to turn the tide? Vulkan & Corvus both have massive potential in leading a joint force of warriors both guard & astartee remnant alike (I know general forces can't keep up with astartees but when your down to 4% remaining astartee forces you really should consider your short term options for the event at hand.) Also I don't like how some primarchs are being singled out to fight alone without their legion, being made to appear as paragons in events which would only add more confusion to already ludicrous and overly complicated plots and lose ends. It would seem that in these new books even perspective is a matter of perspective. Back on track and I'm eager to see what path Pertuabo will take, having him see the way deamons can use even his own brother (fulgrim)as a puppet may make him a tad wiser to how he wishes to approach this up coming battle Waring with both cold analytic perception whilst supporting his wildly pagan chaos inflicted allies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 14, 2013 Author Share Posted October 14, 2013 Well, Corax and Vulkan can only do so much at this point. Corax has the advantage of having reunited with his Legion, but there a few Salamanders still roaming around without knowing their Primarch...lives. Vulkan seems to be destined for something great. But I'm sure he won't be going alone, it's just that there are really few Salamanders around. It's Guilliman, the Lion and Sanguinius I'm most interested in. Dorn, too, since he's carrying the weight of Terra's existence on his shoulders without knowing anything about his brothers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 And what of the Perpetuals? We know where Ol' is heading, but it seems there will be more for them to do as a group. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494907 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dumah Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 John Grammaticus isn't one anymore, technically, but I think he'll have a role to play before his last life is taken. Maybe he'll continue to aid Oll from the shadows, though with the Cabal wise to his true agenda at this point I can't imagine how he'll pull anything off. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494913 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 True, he does have Eldrad on his side however to some degree. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494954 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopkins Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 Polux is on Sotha with Dantioch Which is also one of the rendezvous points for the Night Lords fleet mentioned by Sevatar in Prince Of Crows Plot ahoy Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted October 14, 2013 Share Posted October 14, 2013 I think the reason the Iron Hands don't head to Terra is that they are splintered. There companies all represent a clan, the unifying factor for the clans was Manus. Now he's gone they are rudderless. Also do the Alpha Legion get to Terra. I thought they were the only absent traitor legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3494989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 Polux is on Sotha with Dantioch Which is also one of the rendezvous points for the Night Lords fleet mentioned by Sevatar in Prince Of Crows Plot ahoy Man, that's simply awesome. An all-out desperate Night Lords raid on Macragge...Please let this happen. A grand doubt is whether the Three of Macragge will split in peaceful terms ("Look, we can see the Astronomican. Split, gang.") or with a tragic bang. I hope for the latter, there's still tension to be found among them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495303 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 "Brothers, the Astronomican! We must go!" "Wait, hold on, we don't have any informa--" "I don't care, brother! The path is clear and we must go to our father." "Did you not promise that we would make with all haste if the storms abated?" "And I did not lie. I would give anything, anything, to defend father upon the battlements!" "Then why this resistance, this hesitation?! What holds you, brother?" "We don't know if he yet lives. What if Terra has fallen? What if Horus empowers the beacon now? Would we throw away the Imperium's last chance to die upon father's grave?" "What if, what if. What if father lives? What if Horus is besieging Terra at this moment? We can't afford to stay. We are going, brother." "Then I will do what I can to aid you through the storms, but I cannot commit alongside you." "Do you now confirm my former fears of you, brother?" "No, no. Would father want us to spend all of Imperium's only hope on an uncertainty? Would he want us to risk everything on a long shot?" "Perhaps he--" "Enough. But we will not argue over this further. We must leave, even if you must stay.' Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I don't think it will be quite that simple Cormac. Right now, the Imperium is in utter chaos(lower case C). Guilliman has expressed a desire of trying to preserve as much as possible. We know from established lore that the Lion will meet up with Russ, and they'll take forever to reach Terra because Russ will try to preserve as much as possible on the way there. If it's okay for the Loyalist with one of the smallest Legions to do it, why would it be wrong for the Loyalist with the largest Legion to do it, especially since he has a powerbase to use to consolidate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495325 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Seeing as Corswain is returning to Caliban at this stage, there might be an explanation there as to the delay of the Lion...perhaps the Fall happens before the siege, so the Blood Angels make it (utilising the super drive) while Jonson travels enroute via Caliban to link up with his reinforced Legion...to discover Luther. This leads to the Fall and it is then Corswain who leads the Legion to Terra linking up with Russ 'porting in to the outer system leading Horus to drop shields and fight the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 It would make sense, and though we're talking about a major change in the timeline, it doesn't seem to be that much of a game-changer. A confrontation between the Lion and Russ at Terra would cease to exist and some doubts about the Lion's priorities could arise, but I'd be ok with that. @Kol: I second that point. But it's funny how Curze's words to the Lion about his actions looking shadowy to future generations are encompassing more and more loyalists. Now, I wonder about the Khan's demeanour. His independent streak is awfully strong - and has painted him in a baddish light with some of his brothers. Maybe we'll see a more fervently loyal Jaghatai arriving at Terra, a bit humbled after having doubted his father's righteousness in this war for so long. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495593 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I don't think corswin is heading to caliban, unremembered empire just has him commanding the bulk of the legion in thramis. Yeah, only one reference to him, and he just in command. No reference to caliban. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495629 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 I don't think corswin is heading to caliban, unremembered empire just has him commanding the bulk of the legion in thramis. No something else, I think it was called By the Lion's Command(apparently one of the early releases at one of the GW/FW/BL events) has him heading towards Caliban. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495633 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted October 15, 2013 Author Share Posted October 15, 2013 Poor, poor Corswain. He seems set for a most hurtful death... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verity Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Do we start taking bets on what painful manner of death awaits him? Also I'll be mildly interested to see what actually happens with Sevatar and co. We know that, in the future, it's believed by some that Sevatar fell on Terra and that others believe he lives still. I'm not sure whether it's a safe assumption to make that he'll make it to Terra, or if he'll just die on the Lion's ship/get executed by Gulliman quietly, and then have legends spring up everywhere about what happened to him. Although saying that, I'm pretty sure a few of his fellow captives make cameos in Void Stalker...Wonder what the Lion thought he would gain from keeping them captive and not just executing them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495667 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Augustus Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Corswain is not headed for Caliban. He sends a chapter master B-something to commandeer some ships on his Authority and pick up reinforcements from Caliban. --"By the Lion's Command" Kol, the "Call of the Lion" is about Astelan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Entei Posted October 15, 2013 Share Posted October 15, 2013 Poor, poor Corswain. He seems set for a most hurtful death... We don't really know if Luther is corrupted at all yet. In Grey Angel when Loken met him, he seemed like himself. He hadn't even heard about the heresy. Btw, anyone else thinking we will see some Sigismund-awesomeness at Mars or in the Sol system soon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281884-unpredictable-empire-speculation-and-spoilers/#findComment-3495690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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