Grav Cannons vs. las-cannons

[knife&fork]

  Giving them all Grav Weapons makes for a fearsome anti-infantry unit... but doesn't do much for vehicles. 

 

Have any of you that say this actually tried it?

The volume of fire is brutal and you will most certainly glance any vehicle to death unless it's a landraider. Even then you've got decent odds. Very good against flyers as well as a velocity locked and then movement block is one of the best ways to take a flyer out of action.

 

The fact that grav bypasses saves on vehicles by not causing pens or glances makes it even more brutal.

 

The downside besides cost is the short range, so you probably want them riding in a storm raven to get max use out of them. The raven however synergies well with centurions and you can pull some fish-of-fury BS to protect them from assaults.

 

Unless you are already running grav spam bikes there's nothing in the new SM dex with the sheer killing power of grav centurions.

[Azash]

Grav cannon and amp are the best in my opinion. The one down side is the short range but that can easily be worked around. Paired up with hurricane bolters its cheaper than las/ml and more effective. Whatever the gravs will struggle against the HB's will excellent against and vice versa.

 

Against armor 4 your averaging 7 kills per round against armor 3 it bumps to 9 and so on.

 

They are also great against armor. Without divination your looking at an average of 20 chances to roll two 6's. Two 6's immobilize and glance anything with three hull points to death. Three 6's and your taking out land raiders. Its damned near impossible not to roll three 6's. Can a 3 LC's garuntee they can take out a land raider in one turn....with a GC its money in the bank.

 

Also in a meta with wave serpents that can auto negate one pen into a glance the GC out shines the LC when going after the best tank in 40k.

 

Against MC's they are good but not great. Good because the mc has to have armor so against most greater deamons they will struggle.

[infornography]

If you are playing with White Scars or Imperial Fists I highly recommend the lascannon/missile launcher cents.  White Scars because your bikes should be providing your grav support.  Bikes are by far the best grav platform we have.  Imperial Fists because Grav Cannons don't benefit one bit from the chapter tactics, but they aid the las cannons and missile launchers immensely.

 

For any other chapter tactics it is a bit more up in the air, depends on what you need really.  Do you have a lot of Monstrous Creatures coming at you, or 2+ armor saves and no grav bikers or Legion of the Damned?  If so then take grav cents.  If your opponents are spamming vehicles then take LC/MM cents. 

 

edit: and please note.  Not all players/groups agree that grav ignores cover on vehicles.  RAW that is how it breaks down, but it really seems like an oversight rather than an intended result.  Be prepared to be called WAAC or a beardy rules lawyer if you try to pull this trick.  Best to discuss it before the match to make sure you and your opponent agree on interpretation before the game starts.

[CCE1981]

If you are playing with White Scars or Imperial Fists I highly recommend the lascannon/missile launcher cents.  White Scars because your bikes should be providing your grav support.  Bikes are by far the best grav platform we have.  Imperial Fists because Grav Cannons don't benefit one bit from the chapter tactics, but they aid the las cannons and missile launchers immensely.

Doesn't Matter that the Grav Cannons don't benefit from Chapter Tactics.  They get to re-roll anyways due to the Grav-Amp that comes with the Grav Cannon.

[knife&fork]

edit: and please note.  Not all players/groups agree that grav ignores cover on vehicles.  RAW that is how it breaks down, but it really seems like an oversight rather than an intended result.  Be prepared to be called WAAC or a beardy rules lawyer if you try to pull this trick.  Best to discuss it before the match to make sure you and your opponent agree on interpretation before the game starts.

 

As far as RAW/RAI goes this one is pretty clear. You can only saves wounds, pens and glances in this game. The gravcannon doesn't do pens or glances against vehicles. 

 

They've had 2 months to FAQ it. Could change later (it's GW after all) but it doesn't seem likely at the time.

[Fibonacci]

Grav and cover has been argued to death and we have the locked threads to prove it.  Please, just leave it alone.  Like everything else, check with a TO or discuss with your group how to play it.

[Lysere]

 

If you are playing with White Scars or Imperial Fists I highly recommend the lascannon/missile launcher cents.  White Scars because your bikes should be providing your grav support.  Bikes are by far the best grav platform we have.  Imperial Fists because Grav Cannons don't benefit one bit from the chapter tactics, but they aid the las cannons and missile launchers immensely.

Doesn't Matter that the Grav Cannons don't benefit from Chapter Tactics.  They get to re-roll anyways due to the Grav-Amp that comes with the Grav Cannon.

 

It's best to aim to get as much of a boost with your chapter tactics so you want something that doesn't already re-roll, that and if you can re-roll Las cannons why would you instead take something that can only possible wreck a vehicle at 24", when las can make vehicles explode from across the table. If you want grav as fists take them elsewhere.

[CCE1981]

 

 

If you are playing with White Scars or Imperial Fists I highly recommend the lascannon/missile launcher cents.  White Scars because your bikes should be providing your grav support.  Bikes are by far the best grav platform we have.  Imperial Fists because Grav Cannons don't benefit one bit from the chapter tactics, but they aid the las cannons and missile launchers immensely.

Doesn't Matter that the Grav Cannons don't benefit from Chapter Tactics.  They get to re-roll anyways due to the Grav-Amp that comes with the Grav Cannon.

 

It's best to aim to get as much of a boost with your chapter tactics so you want something that doesn't already re-roll, that and if you can re-roll Las cannons why would you instead take something that can only possible wreck a vehicle at 24", when las can make vehicles explode from across the table. If you want grav as fists take them elsewhere.

I agree with getting as much bang for your buck with Chapter Tactics, I was pointing out that it doesn't matter that Grav Cannons don't care about Chapter Tactics, they still get a re-roll and that is how they should be compared.  I just feel that three twin-linked Lascannons for 80pts a piece aren't really worth it.  The volume of fire just isn't there for me.  If whatever list you are making can make use of them awesome, this codex is pretty good at making a lot of different combinations that will work well.

[Lysere]

 

 

 

If you are playing with White Scars or Imperial Fists I highly recommend the lascannon/missile launcher cents.  White Scars because your bikes should be providing your grav support.  Bikes are by far the best grav platform we have.  Imperial Fists because Grav Cannons don't benefit one bit from the chapter tactics, but they aid the las cannons and missile launchers immensely.

Doesn't Matter that the Grav Cannons don't benefit from Chapter Tactics.  They get to re-roll anyways due to the Grav-Amp that comes with the Grav Cannon.

 

It's best to aim to get as much of a boost with your chapter tactics so you want something that doesn't already re-roll, that and if you can re-roll Las cannons why would you instead take something that can only possible wreck a vehicle at 24", when las can make vehicles explode from across the table. If you want grav as fists take them elsewhere.

I agree with getting as much bang for your buck with Chapter Tactics, I was pointing out that it doesn't matter that Grav Cannons don't care about Chapter Tactics, they still get a re-roll and that is how they should be compared.  I just feel that three twin-linked Lascannons for 80pts a piece aren't really worth it.  The volume of fire just isn't there for me.  If whatever list you are making can make use of them awesome, this codex is pretty good at making a lot of different combinations that will work well.

 

Yeah three twin-linked Las-cannons aren't that great assuming that having twice as much range to engage vehicles with isn't going to sway you one way or another. Having those same Las-cannons and missile launchers, all with tank hunters, while still having twice the range as the Grav Cannons makes a much stronger and more reliable anti-vehicle platform (Except against AV 14 because at that point I feel grav and las are comparable) than the Grav Cannon.

 

Against armor the only advantage of the grav over the las is re-rolls on the result (Need 6s) while Las normally only re-roll to hit. However a las cannon against anything below AV 14 is generally more likely to do damage to the vehicle and has a chance to make it explode. When you mix in imperial fist tactics now not only do you re-roll to hit (Grav needs outside support such as psychic powers to do this) but now you can re-roll against vehicles as well. This also makes missiles more effective, and is still at twice the range of the Grav.

[CCE1981]

 

 

 

 

If you are playing with White Scars or Imperial Fists I highly recommend the lascannon/missile launcher cents.  White Scars because your bikes should be providing your grav support.  Bikes are by far the best grav platform we have.  Imperial Fists because Grav Cannons don't benefit one bit from the chapter tactics, but they aid the las cannons and missile launchers immensely.

Doesn't Matter that the Grav Cannons don't benefit from Chapter Tactics.  They get to re-roll anyways due to the Grav-Amp that comes with the Grav Cannon.

 

It's best to aim to get as much of a boost with your chapter tactics so you want something that doesn't already re-roll, that and if you can re-roll Las cannons why would you instead take something that can only possible wreck a vehicle at 24", when las can make vehicles explode from across the table. If you want grav as fists take them elsewhere.

I agree with getting as much bang for your buck with Chapter Tactics, I was pointing out that it doesn't matter that Grav Cannons don't care about Chapter Tactics, they still get a re-roll and that is how they should be compared.  I just feel that three twin-linked Lascannons for 80pts a piece aren't really worth it.  The volume of fire just isn't there for me.  If whatever list you are making can make use of them awesome, this codex is pretty good at making a lot of different combinations that will work well.

 

Yeah three twin-linked Las-cannons aren't that great assuming that having twice as much range to engage vehicles with isn't going to sway you one way or another. Having those same Las-cannons and missile launchers, all with tank hunters, while still having twice the range as the Grav Cannons makes a much stronger and more reliable anti-vehicle platform (Except against AV 14 because at that point I feel grav and las are comparable) than the Grav Cannon.

 

Against armor the only advantage of the grav over the las is re-rolls on the result (Need 6s) while Las normally only re-roll to hit. However a las cannon against anything below AV 14 is generally more likely to do damage to the vehicle and has a chance to make it explode. When you mix in imperial fist tactics now not only do you re-roll to hit (Grav needs outside support such as psychic powers to do this) but now you can re-roll against vehicles as well. This also makes missiles more effective, and is still at twice the range of the Grav.

I really prefer more disposable units to break vehicles.  Drop Podding Ironclad Dreads are my favorite, so many times my only Ironclad has dropped killed a meaty Land Raider then taken every anti-tank shot from my enemy before dying in a glorious explosion....Ahhh... the memories. lol

 

Unless there is something else that the unit can do.  For instance I use the Ally rules to bring Imperial Fist Devastators onto the board.  Have a 10 man Dev squad, 4 Missile Launchers with Flakk, behind an Aegis Defense Line with a Quad gun.  This is used more as a utility box than anything else.  I know that you can kinda do the same thing with the Centurians.  and with the Omniscope you can shoot the Quadgun at fliers while the rest of the squad blows something else up.  Which is kinda of an interesting idea.

[Lysere]

I don't like considering any of my unit "Disposable." Sure I know many might die in attempting to complete their mission, but that's war for ya.

 

The Dev squad you bring is a versatile unit, but it'll struggle against anything better than armor 12. (Flying or otherwise) Yeah they make a good anti-flyer unit with multiple effective targets, but if you want to truly use IF tactics to tank hunt the centurions will still probably be better, and they are much harder to kill with small arms fire.

 

You could also run Sentinel's of Terra and take both the dev squad, And the centurions (they can be taken as elites!) and have some great anti-vehicle options against all armor types and speed.

[knife&fork]

It's been said before but 3 TLLC even with tank hunters isn't amazing for the points. It's certainly something, but the grav is still superior at killing everything it can reach. Specially when you take the ignore cover into account. OK, maybe the lascannons will be better at killing vehicle units with AV 10-11 and no cover or invul?

 

As stated before you'll probably need a raven for them, but having a tactical reserve isn't a bad a thing. Unless you are already spamming bikes the grav brings you some much needed killing power against all the thing marines struggle with, as well as having excellent mobility. 

[hallodx]

I know two trick to make grav centurion effective:

One is Shadowsun one, infiltrate, 2+ cover in area terrain and ignore cover.

The other is run Khan and get them a LR, deliver them to middle line before game start. It's also great way to send assault centurions into combat(can be turn 1 if go second, FAQ approved

TLLC, you just camp them like you would do to dev squads.

[d@n]

I have found laser cannons to be better. using the grav cannon are to shorter range imo.

[Molokai]

I just realized I can scout grav cents so I'm definitely gonna try outflanking them to make up for range issues.

[d@n]

actually I think it really depends on which chapter tactics your using. imperial fists las cannons and missile launcher, white scars, outflanking with grav cannons, iron hand assault centurions in a land raider and I don't know about the rest.

[knife&fork]

I think one should be very careful using scout or a land raider for anything other than the assault centurions. The ranged ones are very easily locked up in assault by just about anything and can't expect to win against a decent assault unit.

[Lysere]

I think one should be very careful using scout or a land raider for anything other than the assault centurions. The ranged ones are very easily locked up in assault by just about anything and can't expect to win against a decent assault unit.

 

They can't expect to win against almost anything. Saw a game where a 5 man tac squad locked down a trio of grav cents with 3 full turns.

[hallodx]

But when I played the trick, I always have them well supported. HaR is the key this trick wins!

[knife&fork]

  Saw a game where a 5 man tac squad locked down a trio of grav cents with 3 full turns.

 

 Exactly, so don't give your enemy that chance easily, specially at the beginning of the game. 

 

Counter assaulting them is such a nobrainer for your opponent and it works with just about everything. 

[d@n]

considering that you can get 2xgrav bikers for the points of one grav centurion. I wonder if there worth it. I mean how many grav weapons do you really need? I know they both have there advantages but for grav weapons bikes just seem much better to me.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I know two trick to make grav centurion effective:

One is Shadowsun one, infiltrate, 2+ cover in area terrain and ignore cover god damn it.

The other is run Khan and get them a LR, deliver them to middle line before game start. It's also great way to send assault centurions into combat(can be turn 1 if go second, FAQ approved

TLLC, you just camp them like you would do to dev squads.

 

Except you can't Infiltrate them with Shadowsun.  HQs attach to units by being deployed in coherency with them.  This means that an Infiltrating HQ can't be attached to a non-Infiltrating unit so that both can Infiltrate together. . . because the non-Infiltrating unit is already deployed on the table by the time the Infiltrating HQ hits the table.  See the problem?  That's why Shrike got an FAQ in 5th Edition, and the wording of his rules changed, to make his Infiltrate with any squad ability actually work with the rules.

[hallodx]

I'm not quite sure about Shadowsun actually, maybe there's something wrong with that game. I'll check when Tau dex is available.

[Lysere]

 

I know two trick to make grav centurion effective:

One is Shadowsun one, infiltrate, 2+ cover in area terrain and ignore cover god damn it.

The other is run Khan and get them a LR, deliver them to middle line before game start. It's also great way to send assault centurions into combat(can be turn 1 if go second, FAQ approved

TLLC, you just camp them like you would do to dev squads.

 

Except you can't Infiltrate them with Shadowsun.  HQs attach to units by being deployed in coherency with them.  This means that an Infiltrating HQ can't be attached to a non-Infiltrating unit so that both can Infiltrate together. . . because the non-Infiltrating unit is already deployed on the table by the time the Infiltrating HQ hits the table.  See the problem?  That's why Shrike got an FAQ in 5th Edition, and the wording of his rules changed, to make his Infiltrate with any squad ability actually work with the rules.

 

Except by attaching Shadowsun to a unit the entire unit now has infiltrate. You could of course use this to outflank too.

[Bannus]

actually I think it really depends on which chapter tactics your using. imperial fists las cannons and missile launcher, white scars, outflanking with grav cannons, iron hand assault centurions in a land raider and I don't know about the rest.

 

First, I am not sold on Centurions - period. I am really skeptical about CC Centurions. Dev Cents at least can shoot out to a decent range. Just about anything can simply walk away from Centurions to avoid close combat.

 

If I did decide to employ Centurions, it would probably be the Dev variety. I like the idea of the Gav amp combo, but the range does concern me a bit. It mean to get the best effect from them, you have to place them front and center. I don't think they are durable enough for the limelight though.