Grav Cannons vs. las-cannons

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

 

I know two trick to make grav centurion effective:

One is Shadowsun one, infiltrate, 2+ cover in area terrain and ignore cover god damn it.

The other is run Khan and get them a LR, deliver them to middle line before game start. It's also great way to send assault centurions into combat(can be turn 1 if go second, FAQ approved

TLLC, you just camp them like you would do to dev squads.

 

Except you can't Infiltrate them with Shadowsun.  HQs attach to units by being deployed in coherency with them.  This means that an Infiltrating HQ can't be attached to a non-Infiltrating unit so that both can Infiltrate together. . . because the non-Infiltrating unit is already deployed on the table by the time the Infiltrating HQ hits the table.  See the problem?  That's why Shrike got an FAQ in 5th Edition, and the wording of his rules changed, to make his Infiltrate with any squad ability actually work with the rules.

 

Except by attaching Shadowsun to a unit the entire unit now has infiltrate. You could of course use this to outflank too.

 

Uh, no.  There's no exception for Shadowsun.  Because you can't attach her to the unit until the both she and the unit are physically on the table, since attaching HQs is accomplished by deploying them in coherency with that unit.  The only other way to attach an HQ to a unit is to declare that they are attached while in Reserves -- and Infiltrating is not being in Reserve -- which as you say will allow Outflanking, or by placing the HQ in the same transport as that unit which counts as deploying in coherency.

 

So no, Shadowsun cannot Infiltrate with Centurions.

[Lysere]

 

 

 

I know two trick to make grav centurion effective:

One is Shadowsun one, infiltrate, 2+ cover in area terrain and ignore cover god damn it.

The other is run Khan and get them a LR, deliver them to middle line before game start. It's also great way to send assault centurions into combat(can be turn 1 if go second, FAQ approved

TLLC, you just camp them like you would do to dev squads.

 

Except you can't Infiltrate them with Shadowsun.  HQs attach to units by being deployed in coherency with them.  This means that an Infiltrating HQ can't be attached to a non-Infiltrating unit so that both can Infiltrate together. . . because the non-Infiltrating unit is already deployed on the table by the time the Infiltrating HQ hits the table.  See the problem?  That's why Shrike got an FAQ in 5th Edition, and the wording of his rules changed, to make his Infiltrate with any squad ability actually work with the rules.

 

Except by attaching Shadowsun to a unit the entire unit now has infiltrate. You could of course use this to outflank too.

 

Uh, no.  There's no exception for Shadowsun.  Because you can't attach her to the unit until the both she and the unit are physically on the table, since attaching HQs is accomplished by deploying them in coherency with that unit.  The only other way to attach an HQ to a unit is to declare that they are attached while in Reserves -- and Infiltrating is not being in Reserve -- which as you say will allow Outflanking, or by placing the HQ in the same transport as that unit which counts as deploying in coherency.

 

So no, Shadowsun cannot Infiltrate with Centurions.

 

Infiltrate grants outflank so if she and they are in reserve you can attach her, at this point they now benefit from infiltrate and may now outflank. Whether or not you can deploy an infiltrate character with a non infiltrate unit and infiltrate the whole I don't know, nor do I really care as it's not something I plan on doing, and I don't personally know a tau player that uses shadowsun.

 

Of course you could attach her and not have her deploy with her special rules, she would just deploy after everything else. After all she only needs to be in coherency. Plus now the squad gets stealth and shrouded.

[hallodx]

Um checked Tau dex, pretty sure that Shadowsun centurion player is a cheating guy now. He played them like you play Shrike.

[Azash]

First, I am not sold on Centurions - period. I am really skeptical about CC Centurions. Dev Cents at least can shoot out to a decent range. Just about anything can simply walk away from Centurions to avoid close combat.

 

If I did decide to employ Centurions, it would probably be the Dev variety. I like the idea of the Gav amp combo, but the range does concern me a bit. It mean to get the best effect from them, you have to place them front and center. I don't think they are durable enough for the limelight though.

If I remember you like iron hand CT's. Take land raider for them and they have gobs of durability and the range is moot.

 

An IH land raider has good survivability and anything that can really kill the land raider is going to be in range of the dev cents. If its outside of the dev cent range the threat to the land raider is minimal.

 

6 wounds 2+ T5 6+ fnp and the sergeant has iwnd wrapped in an armor 14 , 4 HP, iwnd land raider and they become pretty survivable.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

First, I am not sold on Centurions - period. I am really skeptical about CC Centurions. Dev Cents at least can shoot out to a decent range. Just about anything can simply walk away from Centurions to avoid close combat.

 

If I did decide to employ Centurions, it would probably be the Dev variety. I like the idea of the Gav amp combo, but the range does concern me a bit. It mean to get the best effect from them, you have to place them front and center. I don't think they are durable enough for the limelight though.

If I remember you like iron hand CT's. Take land raider for them and they have gobs of durability and the range is moot.

 

An IH land raider has good survivability and anything that can really kill the land raider is going to be in range of the dev cents. If its outside of the dev cent range the threat to the land raider is minimal.

 

6 wounds 2+ T5 6+ fnp and the sergeant has iwnd wrapped in an armor 14 , 4 HP, iwnd land raider and they become pretty survivable.

 

Emphasis mine.  This statement is fallacious.  Melta will be in range, sure, but anything with lascannons?  Longstrike?  Bright and dark lances?  Hell, even krak missiles can hurt it.

[Gentlemanloser]

If you like Grav Cent's, take Khan and stick them in a LR.

 

Scout them, move, disembark, Grav.

 

Pew Pew. ;)

[knife&fork]

I'll gladly trade a trio of attack bikes or whatever to take out around 500 pts of my opponents army.... Might as well just get another unit of centurions and not bother with the raider. 

 

It's a far too expensive combo to be used in such a suicidal manner.  Something that takes up anywhere from 1/3 to 1/4 of your total points better perform well. 

 

At this point it's not about disruption or distraction either. A unit that expensive is just a valid target period. 

 

 

Starting grav centurions on the board is not the best idea, if you bring them in later you can likely adjust to position them in such a manner that they can finish off units without risking a counter charge or strong retaliatory fire. 

[Lysere]

I'll gladly trade a trio of attack bikes or whatever to take out around 500 pts of my opponents army.... Might as well just get another unit of centurions and not bother with the raider. 

 

It's a far too expensive combo to be used in such a suicidal manner.  Something that takes up anywhere from 1/3 to 1/4 of your total points better perform well. 

 

At this point it's not about disruption or distraction either. A unit that expensive is just a valid target period. 

 

 

Starting grav centurions on the board is not the best idea, if you bring them in later you can likely adjust to position them in such a manner that they can finish off units without risking a counter charge or strong retaliatory fire. 

 

I reserved a trio of grav cents one game, walked in turn 3, mulched an entire tac squad that had ventured across the table. Very good use for them there, plus the rest of the game saw the bulk of the enemies anti-tank fire thrown at them.

[hallodx]

Lysere, I'm very interested in this move, but have some questions. Did you put them in LR and outflanked or SR? Really not likely they can move in from you side and still kill a squad so I guess so. How was the game? Both army and their tactics?

Sure they can be a perfect reaction unit if opponent plays all-out army. A grav cen squad from reserve can ruin everything I can imagine that survived this long.

[Lysere]

I just stuck them in reserve to enter my table edge later since we were playing objectives, one for each team. Obviously getting them scout or some such would be better but if the enemy pushes to claim your side of the table they can walk on in a good spot, find some cover, and annihilate one of the enemy squads that has ventured across the table. From then on they can just move to deny the enemy areas of the table or draw fire away from your continued advance. I do this a lot with Vindicators as well, as their heaviest units will almost always close with your own army making it easy to counter them with your dedicated elite smashing units.

 

It was IG and Black Templar vs Space Wolves. (2 vs 1)

 

Again the idea is to be a counter push unit, your enemy breaches your line and get pummeled by the reserve. I've used this to great effect with many different units and armies. I've used Tau Fire warriors to cripple drop pod dreadnoughts before like this. Storm Raven would also be an idea if you have locator beacons somewhere in your army so they can drop out on the very first turn they enter, since the Ravens own locator option won't kick in on the first turn.

[hallodx]

Sounds great. I used LotD to do this job but the effect is quite limited. I should try this someday.

[Azash]

Emphasis mine. This statement is fallacious. Melta will be in range, sure, but anything with lascannons? Longstrike? Bright and dark lances? Hell, even krak missiles can hurt it.

Really Missile Launchers...instead of just going off of what is possible let's look at the math.

Two lance shots have under a 15% chance of destroying the land raider.

Two las cannon shots have less than 8% chance of destroying a land raider.

Two missile launchers can't possibly destroy a land raider and only have a 22% chance to remove a single hull point.

Just cause its theoretically possible doesn't mean its probable or even likely to happen.That's also not even factoring in the fact that a basic land raider has a boat load of fire power and the ability to split fire and a 48" range. Now if we toss in a 5+ iwnd roll. Also let's use more math like distances. A land raider starting 24 inches from an opponent can move 6" and deploy the cents 6". Which means the 24" range cannons are now 12" away. There are 4 possible locations an opponent can be on the board and be out of range and two are in your deployment zone.

Longstrike in a hammerhead and things like orbital bombardment are your big threats. However no tau player is gonna give up a riptide spot in serious competitive play for a hammer head.

That and cheap suicide units like attack bikes are the real threats. I have never let anyone get within 6" of a land raider with a drop pod and short of first turn scouting attack bikes you can pretty much see everything else coming.

You make it sound as if missile launcher devs are blasting them away like a las cannon against dark eldar.

EDIT - Forgot to mention Dev Cents with Grav Cannons being pretty much 100% lethal to any land raider that gets within 24". However if your moving up 6" and deploying 6" your dev cents with Grav Cannons can shoot there Dev Cent's with Grav Cannons first. Dev Cent's with Grav Cannons should wipe them out 100% of the time...

[Lysere]

FYI Riptides are elites, Hammerheads are Heavy. The rest of your points are good though, and hammerheads don't seem that common now a days. Skyrays show up more often.

[Azash]

FYI Riptides are elites, Hammerheads are Heavy. The rest of your points are good though, and hammerheads don't seem that common now a days. Skyrays show up more often.

 

I thought the Farsight supplement switched them to heavy's...or is that they switch the battle suits to troops? (it changes one of those) Not a Tau player that is obvious but I know the cut and paste Tau meta killer list is 4 Riptides, 3 Squads of battle suit troops w/marker light drones, 3 squads of kroot, and Broadsides with missile pods and maybe a few missile drones.

 

Don't mean to derail the thread. Either way short of the MC's and maybe some of the Battle suits depending on how they are equipped that's your only threat to a Land Raider and that all has to get in Dev Cent range to kill ya. Which is generally what you want them to do is get in grav cannon range.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And none of what you said invalidates my point.  Any of those things can kill a Land Raider, and all of them out-range grav Cents.

[d@n]

in real terms land raiders are not easy to kill.

[hallodx]

Three melta shots can kill anything.

3 shots, 2 hits, 2D6 get average 7, so 2 pen, 4+ explode, so 1 explode. Boom!

DA LR with death wing upgrade can avoid this, but that's DA.

[tdemayo]

I think I'd always take the Grav Cannons.  I can get Lascannons on pretty much any platform - vehicles, devestators, whatever.  I can only get the Grav Cannons on the Centurions.  And, frankly, Centurions aren't that durable.  I'd rather have my lascannons on a Predator or a 10 wound devy squad, anyway. 

 

Hey ... how about a Gravcannon Predator?  That would be awesome.  Too bad it doesn't exist.

 

What would you go for in regards to tank hunting and heavy armored infantry targets when arming yuor new centurions???;

 

the new garv cannon and amp, or the trusty old las-cannons?

 

As far as I can tell they are the same points in the new Dex, so what is your opinion or experience so far???

 

Also, I have not really dug inot the new 6th ed. rules as others have and am a bit confused by the Grav cannons wepaon profile in the new SM Dex; what is 3/5 stand for as an example?

 

And as far as shooting at vehicles; the grav cannon only hits and causes damage on a 6? 

 

Please set me straight so I better understand the pros and cons of this anti-armor weapon design.

[thepowerofwar]

I don't see how Grav cents have that short of a range when you consider that the table is 48 by 72.  With their move that would give them a 60 inch bubble of shooting threat.  If you go by the dawn of war deployment that would mean that 42 by 60 of the table roughly(bubble wise) would be in their threat range. So short of bad / counter deployment they have range to threaten most of the table but they are not very mobile with out a transport. So covering the little bit of the table that they are not threatening should be easy for the rest of the army at that point if your army. 

[Azash]

 

I don't see how Grav cents have that short of a range when you consider that the table is 48 by 72. With their move that would give them a 60 inch bubble of shooting threat. If you go by the dawn of war deployment that would mean that 42 by 60 of the table roughly(bubble wise) would be in their threat range. So short of bad / counter deployment they have range to threaten most of the table but they are not very mobile with out a transport. So covering the little bit of the table that they are not threatening should be easy for the rest of the army at that point if your army.

Yep that's the conclusion I came two but I think their lack of range is more a perceived defficency in net list theory hammer than table top reality. Honestly it reminds me of the miraculous transformation plasma underwent in the transition from 5th to 6th. According to net list theory hammer gets hot went from likely suicide to a negligible risk. Irregardless of the fact that the odds went from 1 in 6 to 1 in 6. Obviously with that kind of improvement it became a must have :p

[knife&fork]

We are talking about a S+P unit with short range, low model count and poor CC performance. 

 

Lack of range is a lot more than just being in range yourself.

[Gentlemanloser]

S&P Doesn't reduce Movement any more, does it?

 

You can still walk 6", like every other footslogging mini in the game.

[Molokai]

Yep. You can't run though.

[Lysere]

30" of threat is enough to easily get a target within the first turn, the problem is can you do that while staying inside cover? Las Cannons and Heavy bolters have a longer base range allowing them to maintain targets while staying in a position of cover, Grav Cannons will have a harder time with that. What's that, don't have a cover save? Allow me to introduce you to a Vindicator.

[Gentlemanloser]

I suppose that depends on where you deployed your Aegis line.