Grav Cannons vs. las-cannons

[knife&fork]

S&P Doesn't reduce Movement any more, does it?

 

You can still walk 6", like every other footslogging mini in the game.

 

Yup, but you can't fire overwatch or make sweeping advances either. That's bad news with a unit that needs to get close but is extremely vulnerable to getting tied up in assault. 

 

6" is very slow in todays meta, things like eldar warp spiders can move on average 23" and fire in one turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Melta Range is close, where Overwatch would be awesome.  The 24" of Grav Cannons isn't close range, and you'll rarely be getting Assaulted from 24".

[Disruptor_fe404]

I put a Dark Angel Librarian into a unit of grav-cannons and missile launchers (mostly because there is no other grav-cannon platform, and grav is excellent against my regular opponents). He brings the Portable Forcefield Generator and the Prescience. And a Tactical Squad that jumps in front of the Centurions to keep them out of combat.

 

Not an option for everyone though, obviously. And they'll definitely be of differing effectiveness in other metas.

[knife&fork]

Melta Range is close, where Overwatch would be awesome.  The 24" of Grav Cannons isn't close range, and you'll rarely be getting Assaulted from 24".

 

Do you think your opponent is going to helpfully spread out all his units 24" apart from each other or do you think that they will be supported? It only takes a model or two making it into CC for the centurions to likely miss a round of shooting. 

 

Not to mention all the nasty weapons and volume of fire you are exposing yourself to within that 24" bubble. Close range also means less chance of cover.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well if my entire army only consists of a single Grav Cent unit...

 

People call them slow due to S&P.  Back in 5th, that would have limited their movement speed.  In 6th, it doesn't.  They are no slower than any footslogging infantry.

 

24" is not close Range.  12" is.  Close enough to charge / be charged after you shoot.  Moving around 24" Range is no difficulty, especially if you've played the GKs for any length of time.

 

Storm Bolters and Psycannons aren't Close Range shooting.

[knife&fork]

Well if my entire army only consists of a single Grav Cent unit...

 

Grav centurions is not throwaway unit like attack bikes, at least not in games below 2k. They are a costly, high priority unit relying on shooting with poor CC performance. A very thankful target to kill, slow down or hide in using assault.

 

Footslogging infantry is painfully slow these days due to the general increase in speed and range across the board. GK and Necrons who previously could dominate a 24" bubble are now struggling with the current power builds just like everyone else.  Normal marines doesn't exactly lend themselves well to the kind of list that just moves across the board, your support elements will suffer from the same problems as the centurions.  Unless you are running bikes and then why bother with the grav centurions... 

 

That's why they combo so well with the raven, they show up when you have thinned the ranks (less supporting units to worry about), can be deployed pretty much anywhere and you can use the raven to movement block if you like.

[Gentlemanloser]

None of that makes Dev Centurion slow or low ranged...

 

They are no slower than any other Infantry, and have better range than most (18" Bolters/Lasguns).  Yes, there are other dedicated shooting units with longer range.

 

Ravens, or others methods might be optimal deployment options (like a Scouting LR), as might be placement of Aegis lines.  All good meat for discussion.

 

Accusing Grav Centurion of being slow or having low range is incorrect though.

[Hellios]

None of that makes Dev Centurion slow or low ranged...

 

They are no slower than any other Infantry, and have better range than most (18" Bolters/Lasguns).  Yes, there are other dedicated shooting units with longer range.

 

Ravens, or others methods might be optimal deployment options (like a Scouting LR), as might be placement of Aegis lines.  All good meat for discussion.

 

Accusing Grav Centurion of being slow or having low range is incorrect though.

 

It is a matter of perspective. Compared to a lot of other infantry they are not slow... but compared to other units they can be considered slow. I started complain in 5th edition that everything was becoming faster (which I don't think is a good thing) and so my Eldar were becoming comparatively slower (although they could still move about as far as they could before), now all of my Eldar units can zoom about everywhere.

[knife&fork]

It's a matter of standards, personal and subjective. If you don't think normal infantry is slow or that 24" is good range then we really don't have anything to gain by bashing heads on this particular matter. 

 

But I think you would agree that a footslogging unit would have trouble if you roll a hammer and anvil deployment? 

[d@n]

If you can foot slog your centurions into range to use there grav cannons, then your opponents can get there Vindicators into range, just ad quickly.  Dosnt sound like a Google trade to me.

[Captain Idaho]

Bottom line is Grav Centurions will be an expensive points investment that border on liability as soon as you play on the long table deployment against a shooting opponent, and you will probably lose big time if you play against Tau, Guard or Eldar.

 

Get a transport and you'll end up doubling their cost.

 

I want 4 Grav Centurions but they just don't have a place in a competitive list these days.

[knife&fork]

 

 

I want 4 Grav Centurions but they just don't have a place in a competitive list these days.

 

Unless you are spamming bikes, what do you bring that can reliably take down things like MCs and waveserpents in the same manner as grav centurions?

[Molokai]

So, lascannon cents just got a boost with cheap inquisitors and prescience. Any takers?

[knife&fork]

Cheap divination and tank hunters is pretty nasty, but still only 3 shots for the price of a landraider. Take the missiles and you break 300 pts...

[Molokai]

Doh, the lascannons are already twin linked. Looks like the grav is still more powerful...

[Azash]

Personally I don't consider a 260 pt unit overly expensive as long as its doing what its supposed to do.

 

10x Tacs w/ rhino ~210-230

6x sternguard w/ dp 5x combi and HF 235

6x assault termites w/ TH&SS 270 pts

6x bikers w/ 2x grav gun and combi-grav 166 pts

 

Considering your getting 2+ armor saves, split fire, night fight, ap 2, 15 shots with rerolls to wound. What do we want for 260 pts an auto win on a 1 to 5 on a 1d6?

[knife&fork]

For one thing you almost get two bike squads for the same pts. Or two 5 man dev squads.

 

The centurions aint bad, but it's still just 3 T5 models without an invul. 

[infornography]

The problems I have with them is that 24" range, while not terrible, does put them in a bit of a precarious situation.  They will want to move to get in range of targets, but they will also very much want cover due to their incredible cost and lack of invuln.  If they are in cover, they are slowed down significantly.  If they are not in cover then they are plasmabait.  At 24 inch range they will be in range of enemy grav and plasma which are the biggest threats to these guys.  Also they will be close enough that jump infantry and beasts can probably get to them and tie them up for the rest of the game if not wipe them out altogether. 

 

They are too fragile and expensive for me to want them anywhere near the front lines in most cases.  I would rather have them bunkered up around the middle of my backlines in ruins or behind an ADL or on a skypad.  In that position I would rather they have the long range lascannon/missile launcher loadout.  That is assuming I take them at all.  I will agree with the opinion often presented that if you want grav weaponry, you are better off using bikes.  They have the speed and lower cost to make them more effective platforms for it and they still have the T5.  Three bikers, two grav, one combi grav.  You can put out plenty of hurt with that unit.

[knife&fork]

I maintain that putting them in a raven gives you a strong and useful tactical reserve. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

And I maintain that that's a waste of almost 500 points that might not see the table until the last turn or two of the game.  If they do come in, they can be Intercepted and all 500 points can die to a single lucky shot.

[d@n]

why is everybody ignoring assault centurions? if, for instance, in the new nid dex, when it comes out, raveners have a 2+ save t5 2 wounds move through cover and strength 9 ap2 attacks and a twin linked flame weapon. we would all be screaming about how broken they are.

[hallodx]

I ran assault cen in LR with Khan twice, charge at turn two, or turn one if going second.

But, forget it since now every imperial army can buy inquisitor and servo skulls. Damn you GW.

[Molokai]

How did the go hallodx?

[knife&fork]

And I maintain that that's a waste of almost 500 points that might not see the table until the last turn or two of the game.  If they do come in, they can be Intercepted and all 500 points can die to a single lucky shot.

 

There's not that much skyfire+intercept used in the game with a good chance to down a stormraven. Most of it is either medium S or blast meant to deal with ground units.  Comedy option Avatar with fastshot manning an icarus not taken into account....  

A unit starting on the table likely has more chance dying so high S blasts, rending/bladestorm and D weapons.

 

A tactical reserve is not a waste of points. Showing up late is a strength if you play it right, not a weakness.

But if you have close to 500 pts in those two units you should probably not have anything else starting off the table. 

[hallodx]

How did the go hallodx?

Pretty fun and kindda deadly. The games were one against CSM and another against mech heavy IG.

The first game they crashed OBs and noice marines, killed by Khârn covered by meat wall later but they already won their points back I believe. That was a draw since I lacked of AA that game and he got two dragons.

The second game, that's massacar. Since that guy field no AP2 cannons (only Vendetta and vet with lascannon and plasma), they charged at turn 3 due to enemy deployment, crashed a russ squadron(popped one with melta, smashed two with drill), later melted by plasmas. Still won their points back already and covered my army's advance.

 

But, again, damn you GW, this book ruined this trick.