Tiger9gamer Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Calm down, Hallodx. Not everyone might take servo skulls! I'm still thinking of putting some Centurions in my biker army. They feel a little more reliable than just gravguns. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I should actually clarify that grav Centurions might have a place in a competitive environment, but people need to prove me wrong before I concede that point. I want to be wrong though, believe me! As for Assault Centurions; they're great up close but unlike what the Tyranids will bring to the table, Marines don't have the numbers or speed to make footslogging infantry a viable option unless they're cheap. And Marines ain't cheap. Put them in a Land Raider and you're doing well, but then consider you're also competing with cheaper models who are still premium assault units. My Honour Guard. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 My Honour Guard Get trolled hard by I4 AP2 CC attacks? ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 I should actually clarify that grav Centurions might have a place in a competitive environment, but people need to prove me wrong before I concede that point. I want to be wrong though, believe me! As for Assault Centurions; they're great up close but unlike what the Tyranids will bring to the table, Marines don't have the numbers or speed to make footslogging infantry a viable option unless they're cheap. And Marines ain't cheap. Put them in a Land Raider and you're doing well, but then consider you're also competing with cheaper models who are still premium assault units. My Honour Guard. As I said. In a previous post. What centurions are best, depends on which chapter tactics you use. Personally I use iron hands so I want to use a lands raider and assault Centurion are a brilliant unit to put in it. I don't want to spend the points on a chapter master necessarily and assault centurions will chew through just about anything from hordes or 200+ point monstrous creatures and independent characters if you play cleverly, were as honour guard just want. I'm still getting used to playing assault Centurion but so far there the best configuration I have found. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 My Honour Guard Get trolled hard by I4 AP2 CC attacks? ;) Nah, they'll just get shot to death whilst my Honour Guard kill the enemy army. But consider Orks or Tyranids. Massed attacks against a very few models, and your only defence (barring hitting first in a Land Raider) is a mere 3 D3 overwatch attacks? Of course you can drop your assault launchers but then you're pumping upgrades into them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 My Honour Guard Get trolled hard by I4 AP2 CC attacks? Nah, they'll just get shot to death whilst my Honour Guard kill the enemy army. But consider Orks or Tyranids. Massed attacks against a very few models, and your only defence (barring hitting first in a Land Raider) is a mere 3 D3 overwatch attacks? Of course you can drop your assault launchers but then you're pumping upgrades into them. No overwatch, ever. So even less defense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527251 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Of course you can drop your assault launchers but then you're pumping upgrades into them. Hurricane Bolters are a free swap. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hallodx Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Calm down, Hallodx. Not everyone might take servo skulls! I'm still thinking of putting some Centurions in my biker army. They feel a little more reliable than just gravguns. Yeah, except bugs and chaos! They are equipped with grav cannon now. My Honour Guard Get trolled hard by I4 AP2 CC attacks? Nah, they'll just get shot to death whilst my Honour Guard kill the enemy army. But consider Orks or Tyranids. Massed attacks against a very few models, and your only defence (barring hitting first in a Land Raider) is a mere 3 D3 overwatch attacks? Of course you can drop your assault launchers but then you're pumping upgrades into them. How about give them a LRR? I know you play ultramarine, but consider WS HG and redeemer combo, you burn them, you charge them, you run away, you burn them, you charge them...(loop) Give them a Chaplain to make them more killy! Oh and if I recall right, if your burn make them run, a successful charge into a retreating unit can destroy it. Not too sure if it's WHFB only or both game systems work the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527469 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysere Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If a unit is falling back and doesn't have ATSKNF they take a morale check, if they fail they die. I always hate it when this happens when I have a clear advantage but shouldn't quite kill them because now I'm stuck right out in the open for everyone to shoot. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 One thing I have noticed in this discussion is "model count", this keeps coming up and its completely irrelevant. Its wound count that matters. You allocate wounds against your models wounds not the models. So for an example 3 centurions have 6 wounds where as 5 bikers have 5 wounds having two more models is irrelevant. Its marginal if your trying to hide special weapons but in units that all models are equipped the same way that's pointless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 One thing I have noticed in this discussion is "model count", this keeps coming up and its completely irrelevant. Model count is certainly not irrelevant when the models lack 'eternal warrior'. How many tyranid players do you see using warriors? Unlike the bike squad or a dev squad there's also zero ablative wounds or models in the centurion squad. Any losses will quickly dig into the damage output and force ld checks. Of course having a squad of multi wound models can have benefits as well if you are able to spread the wounds around. Definitely not irrelevant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Another reason why model count matters more than wound count is the number of attacks you get, both shooting and CC. Three Cents provide three sets of weapons; having six wounds doesn't change that number in any way, shape, or form, and being a wargame, the amount of damage a unit dishes out is perhaps more important than how much damage that unit can take. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527544 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azash Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 One thing I have noticed in this discussion is "model count", this keeps coming up and its completely irrelevant. Model count is certainly not irrelevant when the models lack 'eternal warrior'. How many tyranid players do you see using warriors? Unlike the bike squad or a dev squad there's also zero ablative wounds or models in the centurion squad. Any losses will quickly dig into the damage output and force ld checks. Of course having a squad of multi wound models can have benefits as well if you are able to spread the wounds around. Definitely not irrelevant. Eternal warrior and instant death only matter if your being hit by str 10 or better. Yes so if your being pie plated by a vindy it helps to have more models to survive right? No it doesn't cause the less models you have the less hits your opponent can get on the squad. Model count factors if your trying to avoid something that's multiple shot and can double out your multi wound model. How many multi shot direct fire str 10 weapons do you know of in 40k? Short of mixing it up with dreadnaughts or wraithguard your pretty much OK. Deus Ex I agree losing one model hurts cc centurions or las can cents a lot. However since two grav cannon centurions have 10 shots and a full squad of bikers with grav guns has 6 losing a single model is not the end of the world. A single grav cannon amp centurion model has as much fire power as a 5 model unit of devs or wraithguard etc. Yes it hurts to lose models but I can tell you from practical experience they are hard to kill. By employing the old tau battle suit tactic you can keep the two wound model facing the opponents fire. The earliest I have ever lost a full centurion model is rnd 4. Edit- I hate auto correct Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Of course you can drop your assault launchers but then you're pumping upgrades into them. Hurricane Bolters are a free swap. Yep but who is going to give them Hurricane Bolters in exchange for Assault Launchers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Everyone? lol! Why wouldn't you. Three Cents provide three sets of weapons 6 sets. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527665 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 I think the spate of lists we see everywhere indicates that is not the case. Why would you pay for a Land Raider and then a bunch of Centurions, just for a handful of flamers and a few bolters? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If you're sticking Assault Centurion into a LR to deliver them, then *why* aren't you using the LR Assault LAunchers? Crusader/Redeemer > Godhammer for dropping off Assault Troops. A few bolters? It's a full Squad of Marines, if not more, shooting, all Twin Linked. For free. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Eternal warrior and instant death only matter if your being hit by str 10 or better. Yes so if your being pie plated by a vindy it helps to have more models to survive right? No it doesn't cause the less models you have the less hits your opponent can get on the squad. However since two grav cannon centurions have 10 shots and a full squad of bikers with grav guns has 6 losing a single model is not the end of the world. Wrong again, the game inherently favors MSU. In the case of bikers and centurions we can't overlook the fact that the centurions run twice (or close to) the cost as well. So in the case of Bikers you have 2 units with 5-6 models each, giving us 6 models in two different units that doesn't have a huge impact on the damage output. With devs you only have the sergeant but 2 is more than 0. 2 units means 2 targets for the enemy, 2 units means being able to engage 2 different targets. You can shell out for an omniscope to somewhat mitigate the latter, but a single unit can only be at one place at the time. Centurions will be more survivable against ap3 fire, particularly things that ignore cover, but that's it. You'll be far worse off against anything S10, Distort, force or other ID wargear/abilities. Quite a bit of that these days.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527685 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangamarine Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If you're sticking Assault Centurion into a LR to deliver them, then *why* aren't you using the LR Assault LAunchers? Crusader/Redeemer > Godhammer for dropping off Assault Troops. A few bolters? It's a full Squad of Marines, if not more, shooting, all Twin Linked. For free. Although then you have to weigh whether its worth shooting at the unit you intend to change, in risk of making you out of charge range. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 If you're sticking Assault Centurion into a LR to deliver them, then *why* aren't you using the LR Assault LAunchers? Crusader/Redeemer > Godhammer for dropping off Assault Troops. A few bolters? It's a full Squad of Marines, if not more, shooting, all Twin Linked. For free. because land raiders get destroyed and you don't always want to get back into the land raider so you can assault a unit in cover. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 Everyone? lol! Why wouldn't you. Three Cents provide three sets of weapons 6 sets. Three sets of weapons, not three weapons. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 21, 2013 Share Posted November 21, 2013 3 Sets? Two shooting and 1 CC? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281907-grav-cannons-vs-las-cannons/page/5/#findComment-3527867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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