Some things I've noticed in massacre

[Kol Saresk]

I can understand a Primarch not immediately taking over their Legion. Curze was said to spend time with Fulgrim and Fulgrim and Ferrus were supposed to have spent some time on Terra before each took control. And we all know Angron definitely needed some alone time before he took control. But as Cormac said, there isn't really much reconciliation between Deliverance Lost and The First Heretic and this list. Well, The First Heretic can always just be the middle ground between the last Lost Primarch being Lost and Alpharius being found. But for Deliverance Lost when the Emperor explicitly tells Corax that two of his brothers are already Lost and that He will tell him of them in due time, it can't be truly reconciled without some sort of retcon. Unless the list is "We found out about the second Lost Primarch after Corax was found." I get not wanting to tell anyone anything about the Lost Legions, but this is just making things overly convoluted, which is technically a redundant saying.

[Augustus]

Sorry for double post.

 

Unremembered Empire puts Gullimen at 8. So it matches, at least, to the aforementioned list.

[Kol Saresk]

Somewhat. At the very list, part of the list is matching what we know with Fulgrim and Ferrus being some of the earliest Primarchs with Ferrus first and Fulgrim not far behind(Fulgrim) and Dorn being seventh(The Dark King). I'd rather this list was some sort of general guideline rather than a bona fide timeline of discovery(or claiming Legion leadership, whichever it's supposed to be).

[Augustus]

I was mentioning that maybe that because perhaps the Emperor told Lorgar that the legion wouldn't be found and his brother was dead..or worse. Then they actually find him or his body after finding Corax. If the Emperor told Lorgar way before he was found...or "unfound" than that could still support the theory of the theory that the 13th absorbed the legion way earlier. Convoluted but that's 30k/40k

 

It does invalidate other works. Especially the Dark Angels

[facmanpob]

We don't know the timeline of the two Missing.

 

More than likely, the two redacted are being deliberately put there so that people can make that connection, while making it vague enough that it could be literally anything.

Yes we do! Laurie Goulding published this on The First Expedition forum

- The loss of the II and XI legions and their associated Primarchs

 

This occurred sometime after 981.M30 since all twenty of the primarchs are known to have met one another, and Alpharius was the last to be found.

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know where the Emperor would have told Lorgar all that, since the speculation was Word Bearers Astartes speculating to themselves while they were in the Eye with Lorgar nowhere near and that if they killed the Lost Primarchs now while they were on Terra in the birthing chamber before the Scattering, they would save Lorgar from much grief and possibly preventing the XIII from getting a massive number boost, according to speculation. The Emperor told Corax that his brothers were already gone. Lorgar wasn't really involved in either of those. Which leads us back to being overly convoluted. Provided everything is "official" and "not retconned" due to some unknown "reconciliation".

 

 

 

We don't know the timeline of the two Missing.

 

More than likely, the two redacted are being deliberately put there so that people can make that connection, while making it vague enough that it could be literally anything.

Yes we do! Laurie Goulding published this on The First Expedition forum

- The loss of the II and XI legions and their associated Primarchs

 

This occurred sometime after 981.M30 since all twenty of the primarchs are known to have met one another, and Alpharius was the last to be found.

 

 

Yay. Add to the convolution. Ironically enough, this kills the dates being provided by Forgeworld as having to due with the Lost Legions, but we still get DL and TFH.

 

Facman, where's the thread this was published in?

[facmanpob]

Facman, where's the thread this was published in?

By Your Command!

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=924

It's part of a bigger look at the timeline including some of the major battles, such as Calth, Prospero etc.

Important to note that the definitive timeline was not settled on until a year ago, so there are continuity errors in the earlier books (including the line in TFH on Monarchia about the 2 missing Primarchs already being lost, years before Alpharius is found)....

These continuity errors are being edited out in the Collectors Edition hardback books....

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm. Okay. Well thanks for sharing. I have to say, putting the Lost Legions that close to the Heresy is....... Questionable at best. While it kills things like the Forgeworld dates being involved with the Lost Legions, it also makes them hard to maneuver around as now, they have to have a definite presence in the Great Crusade as well a the history of pretty much everything else. It also means that The First Heretic either has to be moved up in the timeline, or has to get a decent sized chunk gutted from it as well as other pieces involve with other books.

 

I have to wonder whose idea this was and why its taking effect now and not earlier.

[Stonerhino]

Sounds logical....

 

So night of the wolf is a possibility, but what could the other be...

Imperial records stated that two primarchs came to Angron, both claiming to have been sent by the Master of Mankind. The first arrived soon after Angron joined his Legion. The second wouldn’t come until almost a century later. By then, it would be too late.

Russ was the first. He came, and he brought his Wolves. Already, they called themselves the Emperor’s executioners.

There are 100 years between the Night of the Wolf and when the second Primarch comes to help Angron.  So the Night of the Wolf is not one of those.

[Kol Saresk]

Sounds logical....

So night of the wolf is a possibility, but what could the other be...

Imperial records stated that two primarchs came to Angron, both claiming to have been sent by the Master of Mankind. The first arrived soon after Angron joined his Legion. The second wouldn’t come until almost a century later. By then, it would be too late.

Russ was the first. He came, and he brought his Wolves. Already, they called themselves the Emperor’s executioners.

There are 100 years between the Night of the Wolf and when the second Primarch comes to help Angron. So the Night of the Wolf is not one of those.

I think it was more of a "You did what? But he just said this! And then we got this guy contradicting that guy, you know what, it, I'll put it in writing and everyone follows the same list. Now, it's going to contradict a lot of work no matter what, so concentrated on what makes the more sense."

But I'm optimistic and I really don't see much collusion in the earlier books. Unless ADB comes along to tell me how it really is, that's how I see it.

http://z13.invisionfree.com/The_First_Expedition/index.php?showtopic=136&st=15&&do=findComment&comment=22047835

Horus

Leman Russ

[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]

Ferrus Manus

Fulgrim

Vulkan

Rogal Dorn

Roboute Guilliman

Magnus the Red

Sanguinius

Lion El'Jonson

Perturabo

Mortarion

Lorgar

Jaghatai Khan

Konrad Curze

Angron

Corax

[DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS]

Alpharius

Except now we have Angron being pushed close enough to those dates that Night of the Wolf can(note, do not read as "is") be one of those events.

[Augustus]

Cluster poop, indeed.

[jeremy1391]

Ok so I'm gathering that the two redacted dates in the book are about the lost legions... Well poop, I never liked the whole executioner thing they have started with the space wolves.

[facmanpob]

Hmm. Okay. Well thanks for sharing. I have to say, putting the Lost Legions that close to the Heresy is....... Questionable at best. While it kills things like the Forgeworld dates being involved with the Lost Legions, it also makes them hard to maneuver around as now, they have to have a definite presence in the Great Crusade as well a the history of pretty much everything else. It also means that The First Heretic either has to be moved up in the timeline, or has to get a decent sized chunk gutted from it as well as other pieces involve with other books.

 

I have to wonder whose idea this was and why its taking effect now and not earlier.

I think it has come about because the Heresy series was never envisaged to be a huge as it has turned out to be, and because the storyline is now so complicated that they had to sit down and stop all of the authors from contradicting themselves. Laurie Goulding is one of the editors at BL who oversees a lot of this continuity stuff these days.

 

Regarding TFH, making alterations between editions is nothing new in publishing. In fact I was reading only yesterday of the changes Larry Niven made between the 1st and 2nd Editions of Ringworld after feedback from the Scientific commuinty. I imagine they won't take out significant chunks, they will just re-edit the dates to make it fit. They have already done that with Descent of Angels and Fallen Angels.

 

Ok so I'm gathering that the two redacted dates in the book are about the lost legions... Well poop, I never liked the whole executioner thing they have started with the space wolves.

No, they're not about the lost Legions, the Legions only were 'lost' after 981.M30

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know what happened with Ringworld, but with TFH, an entire scene will either have to be gutted, or it will have to be moved up the timeline. I say that because a decent portion of one scene is "'These are the Lost Primarchs! Maybe we should kill them now before the Scattering, to prevent Lorgar from great grief.' 'Don't forget keeping the Ultramarines small too. What? We all know that's what happened! Right?'"

 

Believe it or not, when it came specifically to the Lost Legions, there were no continuity errors. Alpharius was the last Primarch, but as far as I can recall,"he was found towards the end of the Great Crusade", not "twenty-five-ish years before the Heresy". It's an unnecessary retcon that just makes things more convoluted than they have to be. Unless there's an already published, pre-Massacre piece of the puzzle that I'm missing.

[Kol Saresk]

Ok so I'm gathering that the two redacted dates in the book are about the lost legions... Well poop, I never liked the whole executioner thing they have started with the space wolves.

No. Alpha Legion was found 986.M30-ish. Lost Legions(according to posts by Laurie Goulding were lost 981.M30. The events in quest happened 960,M30-ish. Still no chance of being Lost Legion-related. However, does place opportunity for Night of the Wolf and one other, as yet unknown event.

[facmanpob]

If you look through the thread from The First Expedition, Laurie basically says that there were more references to all of the Primarchs meeting than there were to them not, so the former 'won'. Whether or not that was the best decision, I don't know, and to be frank, I can take a few errors in dates here and there without it bothering me too much. I'm re-reading Fallen Angels at the moment (the original version, not the new version with the continuity errors taken out) and it doesn't really bother me that every time they refer to Luther being back on Caliban for 50 years I know they should be saying 100....

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

Correct, facmanpob.

 

Edited out quote

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, edited out. But still, it'd be better to edited one line out of the major continuity error that is Deliverance Lost by just saying Alpharius was found, say, sixty years before the Heresy(past the halfway mark of the GC, officially heading towards the end of the GC and the beginning of the Heresy) and get all the Primarchs meeting each other, having Alpharius be new, leaving most things alone while only changing one simple line. But now you either have to change when an entire book takes place plus the line from another book, or change the same line and basically gut the scene of another book. Which one sounds like it has more trouble involved?

 

IDK. A new, official timeline needs to be published, not just traded around in meetings and forums. That way it can be said, done and out there so things like this(whatever this is) never happens again.

[Kol Saresk]

My point is that while I may not necessarily be the most aware of all the paths BL can take, but from what I can find out from everything on hand, it seems like BL has chosen to pick the more "destructive path", published-fluff-wise. I mean, canonicity can't be too much of a concern since 1.) canon doesn't exist(otherwise we'd still be back in Rogue Trader days and the Ultramarines would be a Third Founding Chapter of Traitor's stock with a Half-Eldar Librarian) and 2.) Deliverance Lost is going to have to go through a major retcon in order to be anything even remotely canon since it basically did not happen at all like the events that were already established in background.

[facmanpob]

Okay, edited out.

IDK. A new, official timeline needs to be published, not just traded around in meetings and forums. That way it can be said, done and out there so things like this(whatever this is) never happens again.

I've taken the quote out of my post too.... see it never happened

I think the official timeline has been published internally, but I can't see them ever doing it externally, except maybe in a "Chronology of the Heresy" section in one of the later FW HH books..... which, come to think of it, would actually make for a nice section

[jeremy1391]

It would be nice if there was a huge list spanning several pages in a FW heresy book giving the who and when of every major event of the unification of terra, the great crusade, the early heresy, the age of darkness and the late heresy including the siege of terra.

[depthcharge12]

Could one of those dates be when the Lion cold clocks Leman Russ during their little scuffle?

 

I could see interfighting again between 2 primarchs as erased maybe

[Conn Eremon]

I doubt it. It sparks off a feud that is very well known, so I assume its source is known as well, in some form or another.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I forget who said it but someone here mentioned how they think the Emperor found them when he wanted to find them. I like that idea.

 

This can be both good and bad, though.  The good explains things like, Ferrus being found on Medusa near the Eye of Terror early in the crusade -- that's a fair distance out from Terra -- and then finding the Lion further beyond the Eye on Caliban. . . . and then, according to TFH, Lorgar arriving on pre-compliance Cadia towards the end of the Crusade, which is actually physically closer to Terra than either Medusa or Caliban.

 

The bad is that he should have picked up the primarchs who faced truely serious moral threats first.  You know, like Angron and Mortarion, which just compounds the whole "The Emperor is a moron" mentality some folks around here have.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I forget who said it but someone here mentioned how they think the Emperor found them when he wanted to find them. I like that idea.

 

This can be both good and bad, though.  The good explains things like, Ferrus being found on Medusa near the Eye of Terror early in the crusade -- that's a fair distance out from Terra -- and then finding the Lion further beyond the Eye on Caliban. . . . and then, according to TFH, Lorgar arriving on pre-compliance Cadia towards the end of the Crusade, which is actually physically closer to Terra than either Medusa or Caliban.

 

The bad is that he should have picked up the primarchs who faced truely serious moral threats first.  You know, like Angron and Mortarion, which just compounds the whole "The Emperor is a moron" mentality some folks around here have.

 

 

Not to mention you have Magnus, the Primarch who was supposed to be in constant communication with the Emperor, being on Prospero, which when compared to all of the other Homeworlds, was virtually in Terra's very own backyard. But instead he was ninth, because Guilliman all the way in the Eastern Fringe was closer or something. Yeah, I kind of liked it better when there wasn't a clear timeline. But since the timing of the timeline seems to be in a change of getting put into reasonably logical terms, I can live with the order.