Land Raider weapons issue

[Silver fang]

 

A couple of months ago a situation arose that stumped me
completely. It was regarding the twin linked assault cannons on a LR redeemer,
although the answer to this question applies to the TLHB on a standard LR.

The conversation went something like this:

ME: Ok, the land raider is going to shoot the assault cannon
at your daemon prince.

OPP: Erm, that’s a hull mounted weapon. The prince is out of
your fire arc.

ME: No, the assault cannon is a turret and has a 360 degree
fire arc.

OPP: Show me how that works.

I proceed to remove the gun, angle the barrels at a 45
degree angle and put in back in the socket, thus allowing a 360 degree fire arc
and a clear LOS to his flying daemon prince.

OPP: Huh, I’ve never seen that before. But it’s still a hull
mounted weapon and so has to pick a different target.

At this point I could see he was worried about having a
grounded daemon prince and I just let it go rather that waste time arguing.

My question is this: Is the TLAC turret mounted OR hull
mounted?

I couldn’t find anywhere in the rules book or codex that
mentions it.

Cheers.

 

[Lucien Eilam]

The rule is that you point the gun at the target. That's it. The turret/hull mounting rules only come into play when you can't move the gun for some reason.

[Silver fang]

So I was right and I could of shot at the DP?

[Lucien Eilam]

If you could trace line of sight down the barrel to the model. It depends on the target. GW even put the important bit in bold, p.72:

 

When firing a vehicle's weapons, point them at the target and trace line of sight from each weapon's mounting and along its barrel to see if the shot is blocked by terrain or models.

 

My recollection is that the hull of the Land Raider forces that weapon mount to point up in the air if you aim it backwards, so a Daemon Prince could be too short to point the gun at it.

 

Remember that wings and weapons don't count for Line of Sight (page 8) – only head, torso and limbs – which probably makes a Land Raider taller than all the official Daemon Prince models.

 

You'd be able to shoot at something taller, like a flyer.

[shortysl]

Actually my recollection is that the weapon is hull-mounted and therefore subject to fire arc restrictions. Having said that, this could be yet another case of "it was stated in previous edition/s but not in 6th and so all you're doing is showing that you're an old fart ShortySL".

 

In my personal opinion, such weapons are limited to the 90-ish degree fire arc to the front of the vehicle as I personally believe that the placement of such a weapon is ridiculous if it was ever supposed to be a true turret mounted weapon but we do know that, with this being a science fiction hobby, real world practicality doesn't really come into it.

[Tiguriusmarius]

Silver,

 

Are you playing with friends or at your local GWS? I run into these issues all the time believe it or not.  The local GM's help a lot with these rullings and is educational for the entire shop because I guarantee your not the only one who has run into this.  I love these types of debates that ensue because your learn a lot in the process. 

[DarkGuard]

The Codex does not state where the gun is mounted, so long as it's on the tank. And the rulebook states that you trace LoS from the gun to the target, and can swivel it to target units. Furthermore, it goes on to state that should the gun be glued etc, that you should assume it can swivel anyway.

 

So, Silver Fang, you were correct here.

 

(Rulebook page 72).

[Lucien Eilam]

Actually my recollection is that the weapon is hull-mounted and therefore subject to fire arc restrictions. Having said that, this could be yet another case of "it was stated in previous edition/s but not in 6th and so all you're doing is showing that you're an old fart ShortySL".

 

Read page 72. Mounting is only relevant if the gun is immobile because you glued it together. The basic rule is that you aim the gun like it was a laser pointer.

 

So, Silver Fang, you were correct here.

 

Only if he could point the gun at the Daemon Prince. I don't think that's possible with an assault cannon pointing backwards on a Land Raider. The lowest elevation would be aimed at a point something like 5-6″ in the air, while head high on a Daemon Prince is below the top of a Land Raider.

[DarkGuard]

 

Actually my recollection is that the weapon is hull-mounted and therefore subject to fire arc restrictions. Having said that, this could be yet another case of "it was stated in previous edition/s but not in 6th and so all you're doing is showing that you're an old fart ShortySL".

 

Read page 72. Mounting is only relevant if the gun is immobile because you glued it together. The basic rule is that you aim the gun like it was a laser pointer.

 

>So, Silver Fang, you were correct here.

 

Only if he could point the gun at the Daemon Prince. I don't think that's possible with an assault cannon pointing backwards on a Land Raider. The lowest elevation would be aimed at a point something like 5-6″ in the air, while head high on a Daemon Prince is below the top of a Land Raider.

 

 

I'm assuming that if this argument came up in game that he could indeed point his gun at the Daemon Prince. It may have been elevated by terrain, or on a scenic base etc.

[Fibonacci]

What does the codex say?  Be sure to check the unit description because sometimes these details can be hidden in the fluff.

 

Outside of that, you have to look at the model.  On a standard Land Raider, that weapon would be the twin linked heavy bolters in the little pop up turret.  It looks very similar to the turret on a Razorback.  It is also made to be adjustable up and down as well as spin 360 degrees. 

 

If you were firing a Havoc launcher I doubt this would have came up even though no where does it say the launcher is a turret of any type.  A havoc launcher modeled without conversions also cannot spin on the Z axis; it just looks like it should.

 

So in the end, there is no general rule to fall back on -- not one that I can find in about 20 minutes of looking ;) .  Does it look like it is a turret?  Unless it is specifically stated as something else, it is what it looks like. 

[Silver fang]

Silver,

Are you playing with friends or at your local GWS? I run into these issues all the time believe it or not. The local GM's help a lot with these rullings and is educational for the entire shop because I guarantee your not the only one who has run into this. I love these types of debates that ensue because your learn a lot in the process.

It was actually in a tournament on the second turn. Within my own gaming network, the rules are tweaked to suit reality and if a rule sounds rubbish or improbable then it gets changed or ignored.

What does the codex say? Be sure to check the unit description because sometimes these details can be hidden in the fluff.

Outside of that, you have to look at the model. On a standard Land Raider, that weapon would be the twin linked heavy bolters in the little pop up turret. It looks very similar to the turret on a Razorback. It is also made to be adjustable up and down as well as spin 360 degrees.

If you were firing a Havoc launcher I doubt this would have came up even though no where does it say the launcher is a turret of any type. A havoc launcher modeled without conversions also cannot spin on the Z axis; it just looks like it should.

So in the end, there is no general rule to fall back on -- not one that I can find in about 20 minutes of looking . Does it look like it is a turret? Unless it is specifically stated as something else, it is what it looks like.

I've gone through the SW codex with a fine tooth comb and all through the rule book. The mounting type of the TLAC isn't mentioned, only that is armed with it.

I could cover up the original mount and put a new mount on the very top of the LR just to avoid any similar situations but I don't think it will arise again.

[Fibonacci]

It has been awhile since I held one in my hands but it looks like a turret to me.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-HZLorI1B0w/SgSrh9f8t6I/AAAAAAAAHFk/Hfy79FeFUVU/s800/LRR%20corner%20view%20closeup.jpg

 

If it is glued in place then you would probably be limited to the 45 degree gimme to the left, right up and down since you could never be sure where the hull would block the weapon.  As it is, if you can sight along the weapon and see your target, that is how you MUST play it.

[Silver fang]

Thanks for the feedback guys, it worried me that I was being pedantic and that I'd been playing it wrong. I hate the thought of cheating, even if it was accidental.

[Raeven]

As the daemon prince was flying, just because you can't point the gun at the physical model on the table, isn't the DP is assumed to be up in the air and visible despite intervening terrain?

[Seahawk]

No such rule has existed since 2nd edition, if even then. There is zero abstraction this edition; WYSIWYG might not be an acronym in the book anymore, but everything in the game runs on its principles.

[infornography]

As the daemon prince was flying, just because you can't point the gun at the physical model on the table, isn't the DP is assumed to be up in the air and visible despite intervening terrain?

 

Actually this was similar to a rule in 5th ed apocalypse and I have seen many people get confused about it since that was the only flyer rules we had for a long time.  6th ed uses no such rule however, flyers are able to get cover and treated as just as high as their base places them.