helterskelter Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 What it says on the tin. The thought processes began in another thread so I made a thread dedicated to it.Now known to me are Alaistor Rushtal the raven guard who accompanies Sevatar and I believe in know no fear there are some salamanders fighting the ultras.. quite who is meant to be traitor in that section im not sure but one party is. Are there any more instances I've missed? Or maybe not seen yet (only up to mark of calth in books ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 In Unremembered Empire we have the reverse, a loyalist "traitor" Word Bearer, though it sounds like he was already introduced somewhere I missed. Seems like he's less on the good guy's side and more on the "Kill Lorgar" side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Nah those salamanders were fake, Guilliman was running combat simulations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498620 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I've heard tell that Massacre has mention of small detachments of Iron Hands going renegade. But that could just mean they went "Screw Horus and screw the Emperor!" But the Raven is currently the only Loyalist-turned-Traitor I've heard of. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498632 Share on other sites More sharing options...
RapatoR Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 There are some traitorous WS, AFAIK. Still it is strange enough we got loyalists from traitor legions and there are almost none traitors from loyalist legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498637 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 The hot Ultramarine on Salamander action was in "Rules of Engagement", not KNF, and as previously stated was Rob running a Danger Room exercise.  "The Serpent Beneath" in the Primarchs anthology mentions Horus having agents in the Loyal Legions feeding him intelligence, some of the White Scars wanted to go with Horus over the Emperor, and of course there's Luther and his boys.  Meanwhile, everyone in the "Traitor" Legions except the Primarchs and Fabius Bile, Khârn, Erebus, Typhus, Lucius, Abaddon and Kor Phaeron were in fact loyal to the Emperor. I can only assume the Siege of Terra will be those few, those proud, that band of brothers blowing up the palace like a sci-fi grimdark version of The Expendables. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Yeah, but I think Luther is more of a Renegade element than a Traitor element. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I've heard tell that Massacre has mention of small detachments of Iron Hands going renegade. But that could just mean they went "Screw Horus and screw the Emperor!" But the Raven is currently the only Loyalist-turned-Traitor I've heard of. Yeah it says they turn renegade and I'm under the impression it's more of a "curse upon both your houses" type thing with them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I could actually see some Iron Hands joining Horus post Isstvan. After all, they have an institutional, arguably bred in fear and hatred of weakness. Â And an argument could be made that by losing to Fulgrim Ferrous showed he was weak. Â (I am not bashing the Gorgon, merely proffering a possible rationale for a group that believes "Cut off my face and give me a metal one, that makes me stronger" is the height of sound thinking). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Â Still it is strange enough we got loyalists from traitor legions and there are almost none traitors from loyalist legions. Â How so? When the traitor Primarchs turned against the Emperor, most of their Legionnaires followed them. However, some where not so keen on the idea of betraying the Emperor, so they decided to remain loyal. The Loyalist Marines faced no such dilemma. They would follow their Primarch and remain loyal to the Emperor. Why would they decide to go against both? Â There were the fallen Dark Angels, of course. But the reason why the Dark Angels are making such a big deal about it to this day is that it wasn't common among the loyal Legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 In Unremembered Empire we have the reverse, a loyalist "traitor" Word Bearer, though it sounds like he was already introduced somewhere I missed. Seems like he's less on the good guy's side and more on the "Kill Lorgar" side. Â Really? My curiousity is piqued. Could you "spoiler tag" his debut, or PM me his info, please? It would be much apprieciated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498690 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 In Unremembered Empire we have the reverse, a loyalist "traitor" Word Bearer, though it sounds like he was already introduced somewhere I missed. Seems like he's less on the good guy's side and more on the "Kill Lorgar" side. He debuted in Vulkan Lives, the two representations of him do deviate imo and he's not really loyalist, he just hates what the Word Bearers have become. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013   In Unremembered Empire we have the reverse, a loyalist "traitor" Word Bearer, though it sounds like he was already introduced somewhere I missed. Seems like he's less on the good guy's side and more on the "Kill Lorgar" side.He debuted in Vulkan Lives, the two representations of him do deviate imo and he's not really loyalist, he just hates what the Word Bearers have become.  I've satisfied myself by making the interpretation that Prayto has misinterpreted his actions as Loyalist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Foes Remain Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 I have also wondered this, out of the nine loyal Legions which ones could have traitors:  1st Legion, Dark Angels: Luther and a sizable portion of the Legion have already seceded from the Imperium so it could be possible that some may have turned against the Emperor and join Horus.  5th Legion, White Scars: Warning contains spoilers.  From the Scars e-book we see that some of the White Scars Legion wish to join up with Horus and his forces, but as their Primarch decides to side with the Emperor its possible that they either get killed or escape and join Horus   6th Legion, Space Wolves: In many books it is shown that the Vlka Fenryka are the war dogs of the Emperor, they will never question his orders and will carry them out no-matter what. So I doubt that there were any traitor Wolves as they seem to pride themselves of doing things that other Legions wouldn't (such as having no qualms over killing or trying to kill a Primarch if told to do so).  7th Legion, Imperial Fists: So far we have seen that the Imperial Fists were withdrawn to Terra to build up the defences of the Palace prior to Davin, and the only Imperial Fist forces that had contact with the traitors were the ones at Phall of whom some of which ended up at Ultramar.  9th Legion, Blood Angels: From what we have seen so far is that the Blood Angels have been 'undone' as it where by their curse, the only ones to have shed loyal blood are Amit and Astartes from his Company when they killed the Wolves at Signus , I doubt that any of them will join Horus after learning that he was the one who sent them to Signus and cause their curse to be revealed to them.  10th Legion, Iron Hands: I do not have Massacre so I'm not going to comment on the Iron Hands much, but if I was one of them and saw or was told that my 'father' had died at the hands of the traitors while their brother Legions were withdrawing to the 'safe-zone' I would be pretty irritable and would probably blame them for his death. Needless to say that others who have Massacre in their hands (heh, Hands get it? no? bah) could probably shed more light on the matter.  13th Legion, Ultramarines: Really can't see any of the Ultramarines joining up with Horus after what happened at Calth. Depsite only 22 out of 25 Chapters being there, the others will no-doubt have heard and wouldn't be very happy about that.  18th Legion, Salamanders: Again, someone with Massacre could probably shed more light on this matter and I have not read Vulkan Lives either but after Isstvan I couldn't see many, if any at all, Salamanders joining up with Horus. Maybe sitting out the War but not joining up.  19th Legion, Raven Guard: Now here we get interesting. There is already one Raven Guard traitor which means its possible for there to be more, but the way I read it from Prince of Crows was that Sevatar tortured Rushtal and eventually broke him (post human or not, I doubt anyone could last under the blades of the Night Lords) and in which Sevatar rebuild him as such or gave him no other choice other than to join them.    This is all my opinion and they way I read the books but I just wanted to take notes from what we already have down as lore and go from there.  Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 IMO the Iron Hands in Massacre are more like "To hell with reorganization and to defend Terra, and to hell with the Emperor, those bastards killed our primarch, we will rip their hearts wherever they are" than "They kiled our primarch let's side with them because...stuff" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Well for the Iron Hands it says some formed a council on Medusa, some commited suicide by rampaging into the enemy, some ended up under command of Guilliman and some simply gave up and went renegade due to the fact the traitors killed their Primarch and their perceived failure by their brother loyalist legions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 See Scars for more on this line of thought :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of the Raven Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013 Was it really Rushtal who sided with Sevatar? I'm not sure someone we can call him such when he's been broken by Night Lord grade torture. The same reasoning always made me wonder if that one sister of battle who fell to chaos could really be called herself after years of slaaneshi torture... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 17, 2013 Share Posted October 17, 2013  Meanwhile, everyone in the "Traitor" Legions except the Primarchs and Fabius Bile, Khârn, Erebus, Typhus, Lucius, Abaddon and Kor Phaeron were in fact loyal to the Emperor. I can only assume the Siege of Terra will be those few, those proud, that band of brothers blowing up the palace like a sci-fi grimdark version of The Expendables. I wish I wasn't lazy enough to put that in my signature. Because that made my day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498830 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 IMO the Iron Hands in Massacre are more like "To hell with reorganization and to defend Terra, and to hell with the Emperor, those bastards killed our primarch, we will rip their hearts wherever they are" than "They kiled our primarch let's side with them because...stuff"Except there is nothing that says they ever sided with the Traitors. Some went Renegade(exact wording: "Renegade"), as in "Screw the Warmaster, screw the Emperor and screw you! We're doing things our way, the Imperium be damned!" Renegade is a new term in the Heresy. And the only other place I can see it being applied to is Luther and his rebellion as the only thing they care about is Caliban, not the Heresy. And actually, their philosophy is more than likely going to see everyone as weak and needing to be destroyed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 And actually, their philosophy is more than likely going to see everyone as weak and needing to be destroyed. Â There's a god for that, you know. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3498997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Â Â And actually, their philosophy is more than likely going to see everyone as weak and needing to be destroyed. Â There's a god for that, you know.;) Zod? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3499013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 The God of Unnecessary Repetition? Â Yes, yes, we know, you'll find him, okay. Can someone freeze his :cuss already? Â Aaaand now I'm picturing the Emperor standing in a lab filled with literal and figurative chaos, staring into a gaping hole into the unreality, the effects of explosive decompression all around him. Â "I will find them! I will find them! I will find them! I will find them! I will find them!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3499069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 The God of Unnecessary Repetition? Â Yes, yes, we know, you'll find him, okay. Can someone freeze his :cuss already? Â Aaaand now I'm picturing the Emperor standing in a lab filled with literal and figurative chaos, staring into a gaping hole into the unreality, the effects of explosive decompression all around him. Â "I will find them! I will find them! I will find them! I will find them! I will find them!" Actually I was thinking more of Terrence Stamp where he thought of himself as an actual god. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3499070 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Oh, I'm aware you meant the dude to whom we all must kneel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282068-traitor-loyalists/#findComment-3499079 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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