Stormraven Turret - 360 degree fire?

[Grey Mage]

Unless of course we take it to mean only 45' right and left, with no up and down issues mentioned, as such is never shown.

[hallodx]

There is actually a much bigger problem with the Storm Raven.  The rules for shooting are based on tanks, not flyers.

 

It can't hit anything on the ground with the Turret on top as you only get to raise the gun 45 degrees if following RAW.  Also, if you can indeed lower them 45 degrees, you have to be 8-10 inches out depending on the target for LOS to work out.

 

The entire model is a mess.

 

I don' think it is a coincidence that when they made the storm talon, the gun is on the bottom of the vehicle....

Or maybe that's why GW never think fliers overpowered since old fliers can't really point all their weapons at ground lol

[Hymirl]

Atlantic, where is it written you can only raise guns? I find people frequently write "RAW" in their posts without checking to see if what they claim is actually written.

 

In this case, that's exactly what you have done. Page 72 of the main rules goes with 'swivel vertically' and vertically means up, and down! Coupled with the fact that the guns on the model will lower until they hit the hull seems to indicate that your claim is totally wrong.

 

That said, LOS is restricted by the stormraven's hull so you're quite right, there is a significant 'dead zone' where it can't target things too close.

[Atlantic]

I'm not sure vertically means up and down.  Tank Guns do not go up and down.  If it went up and down that would mean it has a 90 degree arc of fire.  It says 45.  Or does that mean up 22.5 and down 22.5?

 

You could argue this RAW however you want and that is because it is written poorly.

 

Irregardless the thing has to be way out to actually hit anything.  Like 8 to ten inches or further depending on the target.  It also makes the Multi Melta pretty useless as well!  If that can even swivel?  That looks to only move side to side. 

[Hymirl]

It's not written poorly. If you disagree with the meaning of vertical I suggest you consult a dictionary. Knowing what words mean will help you a lot.

 

Secondly you need to consider LOS limits still apply, including the vehicle itself which normally effects how far down a tank can move its gun. The fact you're allowed up to 45' does not automatically mean you will alway get that angle.

[Atlantic]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything.

 

My personal opinion is the dumb thing can go up and down 45 degrees and it is sporting to allow players to make the best possible use of their models and that generosity is part of sportsmanship.

 

However, there are plenty of players who do not feel the same and will rules lawyer you to death - especially in a tournament setting.

 

With that said - there are plenty of ways that one can choose to interpret how the rules or written.

 

If the rules were truly written well it would explicitly state what the model is capable of doing.  Vertical does not necessarily mean up and down.  45 degrees could mean you only move up 22 or down 22.  45 degrees could also just mean 45 degrees up.  

 

Personally, I think it is probably 45 in either direction.

 

But that is the point though right?  

 

Aside from that, the model is a blinking mess.  The way it is built does not conform with getting a great deal of utility out of it in regard to actual gameplay.  It looks pretty good on paper, but has severe problems in regard to targeting.  

[Molokai]

I'm glad I haven't bought a stormraven yet. It sounds like right mess, both rules and modelwise. I'll gladly stick to two stormtalons. Thanks guys :)

[hallodx]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything.

 

My personal opinion is the dumb thing can go up and down 45 degrees and it is sporting to allow players to make the best possible use of their models and that generosity is part of sportsmanship.

 

However, there are plenty of players who do not feel the same and will rules lawyer you to death - especially in a tournament setting.

 

With that said - there are plenty of ways that one can choose to interpret how the rules or written.

 

If the rules were truly written well it would explicitly state what the model is capable of doing.  Vertical does not necessarily mean up and down.  45 degrees could mean you only move up 22 or down 22.  45 degrees could also just mean 45 degrees up.  

 

Personally, I think it is probably 45 in either direction.

 

But that is the point though right?  

 

Aside from that, the model is a blinking mess.  The way it is built does not conform with getting a great deal of utility out of it in regard to actual gameplay.  It looks pretty good on paper, but has severe problems in regard to targeting.  

You reminded me a guy in tourney, claiming his immobilized Basilisk can still fire target in 90' arc because he glued it fixed... The Emperor Protect that shot scattered to nothing and I won in the last by claiming objectives, but he really ruined my mood.

[Grey Mage]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with anything.

 

My personal opinion is the dumb thing can go up and down 45 degrees and it is sporting to allow players to make the best possible use of their models and that generosity is part of sportsmanship.

 

However, there are plenty of players who do not feel the same and will rules lawyer you to death - especially in a tournament setting.

 

With that said - there are plenty of ways that one can choose to interpret how the rules or written.

 

If the rules were truly written well it would explicitly state what the model is capable of doing.  Vertical does not necessarily mean up and down.  45 degrees could mean you only move up 22 or down 22.  45 degrees could also just mean 45 degrees up.  

 

Personally, I think it is probably 45 in either direction.

 

But that is the point though right?  

 

Aside from that, the model is a blinking mess.  The way it is built does not conform with getting a great deal of utility out of it in regard to actual gameplay.  It looks pretty good on paper, but has severe problems in regard to targeting.  

Well in alot of cases it wouldnt have to specify- you measure 45' from the lowest point it can angle upwards. In cases where its glued in a forward shooting position, you go indeed 22.5 up and down.

 

Of course these rules- like all GW rules- are fast and dirty rules. Taking them as seriously as we do needs to be balanced by sportsmanship and an eye towards whats easily workable.

[Quixus]

I don't think that was wrong, or even unsportsmanlike.

An Immobilised vehicle cannot move - it may not even pivot, but its turret may continue to rotate to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal arcs of fire.

I only doubt that the basilisk should have a 90° firing arc in the first place.

[hallodx]

 

I don't think that was wrong, or even unsportsmanlike.

An Immobilised vehicle cannot move - it may not even pivot, but its turret may continue to rotate to select targets, and other weapons retain their normal arcs of fire.

I only doubt that the basilisk should have a 90° firing arc in the first place.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440173a&prodId=prod630024a&rootCatGameStyle=

Man, this thing don't have a rotating turret. He just "glued it fixed" and claim it is now apply to the "glued rule"

[Raeven]

Blatant cheating.  You should have called him on it and pulled out the rule book to show him.

[Quixus]

Of course it is not a turret (if it were, it would have gotten 360°), but it should be a hull mounted weapon, which gets a 90° (it actually looks more like 45° in arc of sight 2) firing arc barring any special rules for the basilisk.

[hallodx]

Blatant cheating. You should have called him on it and pulled out the rule book to show him.

Yeah I should, but there's less then 10 minutes left for that game and I need my turn 5 to win...he place his camping guardsmen slow like hell every turn after winning first blood. MOVING CAMPING GUARDSMEN! ONE BY ONE!

Of course it is not a turret (if it were, it would have gotten 360°), but it should be a hull mounted weapon, which gets a 90° (it actually looks more like 45° in arc of sight 2) firing arc barring any special rules for the basilisk.

There's no such rule letting hull mounted weapons fire at targets not physically pointable expect assuming they can swivel horizontally 45'.

Also I doubt it is a hull mounted weapon, and that cannon can't rotate at the very beginning.

[Raeven]

Any weapon like that, that just moves up and down, is a hull mounted weapon. Like the vindicators cannon. No side to side swivel, but the rules allow a 45 degree arc of fire for weapons of this type. That means 22.5 left and right. Not 45 right and 45 left for a total 90 degree arc.

 

I play against a necron player who doesn't grok that rule and constantly tries to shoot me with his tesla array on the side of his doomsday arc like they are sponson weapons and not hull mounted. I tell him to stuff it.

[Lysere]

I actually enjoy using my raven with all its poorly placed turrets, then again I haven't actually fully built the thing and everyone at my store is rather sporting about obvious model issues. Afterall the blood angel and grey knight player have more of them than I do.

[Ishagu]

The thing with a flyer is that it's height off the table doesn't really represent how high off the ground it's flying. (And if it's skimming the vehicle can be assaulted even though models can't actually reach it physically)

 

What if I announced that the Stormraven is flying low, 2 meters off the ground? Does that mean that I now have LOS on low down models below it with the Lascannon?

 

You would also also assume that a flyer can yaw up or down? And if not, what happens if I modelled my raven at a steep bank, but my opponent who is also using a StormRaven has his flying straight ahead on the base. Does that mean that I can shoot models below me with the Lascannon, but I can't aim forward with the melta, whilst he has the same problem but in reverse?

You can't take the rule for LOS from the guns of a flyer literally.

 

 

You can measure an approx line of sight from where the gun would be. What if I can't actually move the cannon on my models? What if I glued them? There is no rule listed that says a Leman Russ with a glued cannon can't aim to the sides. You telling me that my Dread that has a glued Las cannon on it's arm can't aim upwards to try and hit the Raven? I have played and seen a lot of games be played, and never have I seen someone actually move the guns or turrets around on all of their tanks and walkers.

 

Also what if I modelled my Raven differently? What if I used conversion work and put the Turrer at the bottom. Do I have an advantage over the regular build???

 

I should also mention, that if the Raven pointed it's cannons straight up, you could rotate the gunner so it's facing backwards, then drop them again and presto. now they point the other way.

 

 

 

The LOS rule for the guns was indeed written with tanks in mind... Basically, this is where Spirit of the game comes in...

[infornography]

The LOS rule has issues with flyers, but those issues are pretty much resolved if you assume that the vehicle has a 45 degree pitch allowance.  It seems to me a reasonable compromise between RAW and poorly designed models to fit within those rules. 

[GreyCrow]

I'm not sure vertically means up and down.  Tank Guns do not go up and down.  If it went up and down that would mean it has a 90 degree arc of fire.  It says 45.  Or does that mean up 22.5 and down 22.5?

 

You could argue this RAW however you want and that is because it is written poorly.

 

Irregardless the thing has to be way out to actually hit anything.  Like 8 to ten inches or further depending on the target.  It also makes the Multi Melta pretty useless as well!  If that can even swivel?  That looks to only move side to side. 

 

Tank guns do go up AND down in real life, although not so down as they could shoot the ground in front of them. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to maintain a level arc of fire when going up a ditch or a bump, which would be pretty dumb hehe.

Tank guns do go up AND down in the W40k universe. Just check page 102 of the space marine codex.

 

Of course, that doesn't prevent the stormraven from still having LOs issues with its turret.