Kol Saresk Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Well, as seen by Unremembered Empire, Perpetuals can lose their ability to reincarnate. It is a possibility that the energy he put into destroying Horus, was a bit more of a sacrifice than we imagined. Which would explain why he chose to be interred and why he didn't just blast Horus from halfway across the galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499379 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthMarko Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 There are no gods..There are only emo leeches who can be defeated with love...*ducks for cover* It's funny when old Perturabo rubs Fulgrim (about gods).....Fulgrim : "We are microbes to them !!! Perurabo : Microbes can kill when there is enough of them..." Ooo, the good old Pert.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 The real question is what is a god, or a deamon. I always thought it was an underlying theme in the series. When does a warp predator become a deamon. When does malign warp ebtitys become chaos gods. When does the secular emperor of mankind become the god of humanity. Its all a label. The emperor is a god as that is what the citizens of 40k believe he is. what he really is, isnt really clear. He lacks a certain humanity to make him just a metahuman, but i dont think he is an entity like the chaos gods or deamons, as his power seems to be at a constant level. I like the shaman idea, its not that he is a human but a collection of life forces merged. Its not really human but represents the ultimate power of humanity both in the material realm and in rte warp, which makes him so much more dangerous then chaos which relies on 'followers' to make and impact on reality. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FashaTheDog Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 What the Emperor is is a bad parent. He is the horrible warning in parenting books that demonstrate how not to raise your sons. Seriously, he did such a terrible job his favorite betrayed him, damn near killed him, and sent the Imperium spiraling into the very thing the Emperor did not want. Even early on he botched the job. Look at Angron; rather than send the Warhounds down to help in the battle and creat a little resentment, he instead whisks Angron off in the middle of the night just so his son becomes even more bitter and angry. So yeah, I'm getting the Big E this for Ascension Day: http://s24.postimg.org/4mwd9p1sl/worlds_worst_dad_now_pour_me_some_coffee_mug_p16.jpg Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 The imperium doesn't exist in the Warp. Mankind does. And I know of a few Warp gods that like to reward those who feed them with power. You know, just slay a bunch of Sisters of Battle and who knows, maybe it could please someone in the immaterium. The Chaos gods don't mind about your allegiance. Legions of the Damned, Saints and Sanguinor could very well be favoured by Chaos. Regardless of the fact that they fight agaist Chaos. Because that's what Chaos actually does. In that, it mirrors Mankind. So devoting your self to the Emperor and praising his name on a massivescale could reach an pinnacle point where he bursts out into being a god. What is the emperor ? Who is he ? Do you even represent him well ? Do you picture him as a god of war ? A great politician of a long past golden age ? You think that by adressing your prayer to a concept that keeps shifting as monks and inquisitors keep debating on it (much like the gender of angels) and considering the perticularities of your local believes on the dude, it goes right to his warp-belly without being eaten up by the damn Warp gods ? That's kinda naive. The Emperor Protects. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499432 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 And the Chaos gods are enjoying it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499446 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Well my point was those three little words when focused on, no matter the change in view of the Emperor, is enough to focus their dedication and worship of the Emperor into him, the more chaos puts them in the position for seeking his guidance the more he gets powered, it's a constant cycle, one that fits in well with the idea of a stagnating galaxy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499549 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I don't see by which magic it could be. The Chaos gods feeds off emotions. The actual emperor feeds of psykers. Plus, you're assuming Chaos can't be a positive force, that leads poor humans in seeking someone's guidance. When Chaos can be positive. Khorne also feeds off and rewards honor and courage. Nurgle does the same with endurence, resilience, Slaanesh with sensibility to art, beauty, and Tzeentch with hope or even the will to change things for the better, stuff like that. Chaos is mostly evil because mankind is. The emperor got it pretty fast, that's why his long time plan was to create a new race of man, the Primarchs, that would be freed from Chaos. We know how things ended. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499662 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I don't see by which magic it could be. The Chaos gods feeds off emotions. The actual emperor feeds of psykers. Plus, you're assuming Chaos can't be a positive force, that leads poor humans in seeking someone's guidance. When Chaos can be positive. Khorne also feeds off and rewards honor and courage. Nurgle does the same with endurence, resilience, Slaanesh with sensibility to art, beauty, and Tzeentch with hope or even the will to change things for the better, stuff like that. Chaos is mostly evil because mankind is. The emperor got it pretty fast, that's why his long time plan was to create a new race of man, the Primarchs, that would be freed from Chaos. We know how things ended. Were the primarchs intended to replace mankind? Or breed into it and improve us with their incredibly awesome manly genes? I guess that would explain why they were dudes... if you're trying to improve a population via breeding good traits into it, you'd want to gene-engineer impressive dudes who could impregnate multiple women (going through the maternal line would take longer). But then, the Emperor really screwed up by making them all basically asexual... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499664 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Well the Emperor Protects statement is based on Hope I suspect. The Emperor created the Primarchs to lead his armies and once the war was over they would retire and be leaders of common men and rules of planets or entire systems, this comes up in several books, right from the off in fact when Sigismund discusses it with Loken in Horus Rising. It's the whole point of the Heresy, Horus didn't like normal men taking over from them, the chaos gods exploited that chink in his armour. I don't think the Emperor wanted to become a god he outright denied it, but due to the Heresy he's more likely to naturally ascend now due to the belief put into him by the Imperium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 "The Emperor's most long-sighted plan to counter the insiduous influences of the Chaos Powers was the creation of the Primarchs: genetically engeneered super-humans with god-like powers. The Emperor's intention was to create a whole race of super-humans from the genetic blueprint of the Primarchs. By making them loyal and strong he hoped that they would prove immune to the malign psychic influences of Chaos." Realm of Chaos : The Lost and the Damned - page 177. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Yeah well that's out of date, the most recent Horus Heresy series explains what the Primarchs were made for and how they were to be integrated with common humans once the crusade was over, otherwise why put in a system of governance made of common men if you were going to replace them, why not just leave the entire control of the crusade and governance of the Imperium in the hands of the Primarchs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499703 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Source on "explaining what the Primarchs were made for", please? Because everything I've seen in the Heresy so far is conjecture, from Guilliman's belief in Know No Fear that the Astartes and Primarchs would be govenors and rulers of worlds because "My father does not make mistakes of that magnitude" (Angron and Curze: "Say WHAT now?") To Alpharius and Lorgar speculating the Primarchs would be generals in a never ending war. (Legion, Betrayer). Also, if the Golden Throne is a soul trap for the Emperor, does that mean Rogal Dorn was the real Arch Betrayer? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Maybe "explain" was to strong a word, there's a lot of evidence, such as the 20 bedrooms in the Imperial palace, the thoughts and opinions of multiple Important figures and the general way the crusade was taking. I admit though that potentially far in the future after the crusade once the Imperium was as secure as it could be he may of undertaken the venture Vesper indicated, but I find the idea questionable considering the Emperor's love of humanity, supplanting them with genetically advanced humans maybe be ok for the armies but for the general population, that's a bit far fetched. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Yeah well that's out of date, the most recent Horus Heresy series explains what the Primarchs were made for and how they were to be integrated with common humans once the crusade was over, otherwise why put in a system of governance made of common men if you were going to replace them, why not just leave the entire control of the crusade and governance of the Imperium in the hands of the Primarchs. Nothing's out of date. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499739 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Space Marine is. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3499745 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLost Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Didn't the emperor get put into the golden throne to hold the breach made by magnus under the imperial palace closed, as well as light astronomican? So by doing this he cannot reincarnate because he is still holding chaos at bay(alive), so in theory when the golden throne gives in and the emperor finally dies, terra will be consumed but the Emperor will live again? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 He was plastered to the throne because it was the only way to keep him alive. As long as he is alive, the Astronomicon is powered. And while the chair is active, the webway breach is sealed. But it is only active when a psyker of necessary strength is sitting in it. So it ends up just becoming a confluence of events that happen to be achieved by a single act: Placing the dying Emperor on the Golden Throne so he can stay alive and as a result of staying alive, power the Astronomicon and seal the breach. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLost Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 So with it being the End time and the golden throne knackered to a point the mechanicus don't know how to fix it, the emperor will die and if he is a perpetual he should rise again, maybe not the same emperor seeing as he has been stuck on a bloody great throne for 10000 years Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500696 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Maybe. Unless the past ten thousand years of beacon-lighting and breach-blocking, coupled with the manner and cause of his interment, has used up so much of his energy that there will be no rebirth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500699 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 There is also the possibility that he used so much energy blasting Horus into literal oblivion that he couldn't resurrect then and that's why he had himself interred on the Throne in the hopes that He would at least be able to guide Humanity out of the darkness. But then the Imperium stagnated. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500711 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Aiwass Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Maybe I'm wrong but is not the psykers who are sacrificed into the Astronomican who actually burns it? And on a totally off topic note, if the Emperor is feed by psykers (1000 at day nonetheless), why are not the chaos legiones killing everyone of them? That would kill the Emperor aswell. Death from starvation. A wild chaos warship appears next to an imperial world. Virus-bomb. Pop again in the warp. Next jump to an other world. Repeat. Abbadon, Cypher, Alpha Legion... You should do this :p Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 The impression I got from Vulkan Lives was that respawning as a Perpetual doesn't take much energy. Maybe the power of chaos behind Horus' attacks stripped that ability from the Emperor? Also, how does the Astronomican work when the Emperor is away? Like, if the Emperor is needed now to direct or control it, who did that job while he was leading the Crusade for nearly 200 years? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent val Munshin Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I was under the impression that there was no Astronomican during the Crusade, but the warp was just easier to navigate back when. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FunkyMonkey Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I'm pretty sure there was an Astronomican. There were navigators during the Horus Heresy, as Typhon had all of the Death Guard fleet navigators killed so that he could lead the legion into Nurgle's trap. I don't know if navigators can navigate the warp tides without the Astronomican. If they can, then the Astronomican may or may not have existed. If not, then certainly the Astronomican existed. Also, I'm interested to know the exact nature of the "gods" of Warhammer 40K universe. We know the Chaos Gods are the amalgamations of the four strongest base emotions, while Gork and Mork are most likely reflections of Orkish behavior similar to the Chaos Gods, and C'tan Star Gods are just ridiculously old and powerful energy beings. What are Eldar Gods? I don't really see any evidence of them being amalgamations like the Chaos Gods, apart from Ynnead who is the amalgamation of all dead Eldar souls not yet consumed by Slaanesh. What are the Eldar Gods' relation to the Old Ones? If the Eldar Gods are actually some sort of beings and not the manifestations of emotion like the other warp gods, then maybe they could be more similar to the Emperor than the Emperor is to the Chaos Gods. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282090-the-emperor-deamon-prince-or-perpetual/page/3/#findComment-3500972 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.