Company Master wargear idea

[FerociousBeast]

I'm more interested in the Monster Slayer sword, actually :)

 

45 points well spent?

[Cpt_Reaper]

The Monster Slayer is like the Grey Knights' Daemonblade. There are logically better choices but tactically it can be just what you need in quite a few situations.

[FlamingDeth]

The Monster Slayer is a gamble. Usually it doesn't seem worth it, and then you one shot a trygon. If you just roll ones all the time then clearly you don't have strong enough faith in the Emperor.

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

I'd like to add my 2cents. While the Monster slayer might be hellaciously overpriced it fits our Legion so well. We are DA for thrones sake! We use swords dangit. Not only that we are the most loyal Legion ever! (really it says so on our business cards) Added to that our Primarch was obviously a master swordsmen and you have a fluff bunnies wet dream! Plus it is classic to watch your opponents face when you use a, previous turn power sword, and then promptly maul half a squad or kill a special snow flake with it.

 

DoC

[Major_Gilbear]

IWe are DA for thrones sake! We use swords dangit. Not only that we are the most loyal Legion ever! (really it says so on our business cards) Added to that our Primarch was obviously a master swordsmen and you have a fluff bunnies wet dream!

 

Hmm, not really - that's actually what makes MSoC worse (along with rubbish like the Blades of Caliban). :(

 

Don't get me wrong: an elderly and fickle monster-slaying sword is pretty cool alright, but at that many points just feels like a fun tax.

[[TA]Typher]

 

I'd like to add my 2cents. While the Monster slayer might be hellaciously overpriced it fits our Legion so well. We are DA for thrones sake! We use swords dangit. Not only that we are the most loyal Legion ever! (really it says so on our business cards) Added to that our Primarch was obviously a master swordsmen and you have a fluff bunnies wet dream! Plus it is classic to watch your opponents face when you use a, previous turn power sword, and then promptly maul half a squad or kill a special snow flake with it.

 

DoC

With the addition of the new Knights I'd disagree with you. Maces? Really? Why couldn't they have giant Claymores. That would have fit sooo much better.

 

 

 

Regarding the monster slayer sword I'd say it's too random for the point value. If we wanted weapons this random we'd all play Orks. If you can't rely on your weapon they what good is it? Using this thing adds too many variables to the battle. If you place enough randomness between you and victory then the odds are you are not going to win.

[march10k]

 

 

I'd like to add my 2cents. While the Monster slayer might be hellaciously overpriced it fits our Legion so well. We are DA for thrones sake! We use swords dangit. Not only that we are the most loyal Legion ever! (really it says so on our business cards) Added to that our Primarch was obviously a master swordsmen and you have a fluff bunnies wet dream! Plus it is classic to watch your opponents face when you use a, previous turn power sword, and then promptly maul half a squad or kill a special snow flake with it.

 

DoC

With the addition of the new Knights I'd disagree with you. Maces? Really? Why couldn't they have giant Claymores. That would have fit sooo much better.

 

I'll bet they thought about that.  And then realized that you can't reasonably have a two-handed sword AND a storm shield.  And realized that the best invul they could justify without the storm shield would be a 4++.  And then they tried having the knights one-hand really big swords, and it looked stupid (like, "skeletons surfing on animated snake statues" stupid), so they began to cast about for alterntatives...and the idea of a mace that has incense coming out of it got them all excited.  The rest, as they say...is fluff heresy....I say as I prepare to make a force-axe wielding bike libby...Anyway, the power mace came on the DA upgrade sprue, not the C:UM one, so this new aspect of DA using blunt weapons is hardly new.

[[TA]Typher]

Yea, I think you are right March.

 

I just really want one of our models to have a claymore that isn't just a power sword.

[march10k]

Well...There's Zeke...he's two-handing a force sword? And the Company Master with the awesome cloak resting his hands on the massive sword...that could be the monster slayer...

[[TA]Typher]

I really like Zeke. I wish that he had a Invul.

 

Has anyone ever tried the monster slayer sword?

[march10k]

Not me...It looks overpriced, but I think the "ZOMG, you'll always roll a 1 and get a generic power sword" fears are a bit over the top.  For 45 points, it should Always be +2S and ID, I think as it is, it should cost about ten points less.  Still, if you want a giant sword on your character, call it 35 points for the weapon, plus a ten point fun tax.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree the lack of swords on DWKs is a real shame, stops me from buying more. They could have given them a Frost Blade equivalent rules wise and there would have been plenty of happy campers in the fluff bunny holiday homes. Still, being able to be AP2 occasionally is nice. As for the Monster Slayer, what a waste of potential, Vetock shows his inexperience there.

[Darkangeldentist]

My 40K gaming has been infrequent of late but when I have fielded my Dark angels, my company masters have been taking to the field wielding the monster slayer of caliban. Part of this is because the games have been friendly and laid back but mostly I've been taking it because it's a fun item.

 

My current setup has been artificer armour, monster slayer of caliban and a storm bolter. Sometimes I consider upgrading to digital weapons and/or a combi-weapon or other ranged option and sometimes even the relic of the unforgiven. Mostly it's been just the sword and storm bolter with 2+ save. It keeps the overall cost down and also stops me thinking that he'll always be a combat monster.

 

That last point is rather the key for me and also one of the factors that means I take a storm bolter rather than a combi-weapon or pistol. Company masters are competent fighters but they're no bloodthirster or hive tyrant. With a bit of luck they can last a couple of rounds against one thanks to their invulnerable save but they lack the number of attacks to really stand out as models that ought to be always looking for a fight. He's there to swing a combat by taking one for the team and holding the monster at bay or slaying their sergeant and/or a couple of extra grunts before they can swing. Against the latter the mace of retribution is a better and more reliable choice but the sword isn't bad by any means.

 

I have been facing nids quite a lot recently which also helps my experience with the monster slayer of caliban be a positive one. They have so many multi-wound models that you have a good chance of seeing multiple rounds of combat against things vulnerable to that instant death result. Currently he's been doing stirling work beating down warriors and allowing my missiles to focus on thining the hordes of smaller gribblies. Even against those foes that a company master would struggle against (such as a Necron phaeron with all the usual trimmings) can be caught out by a sneaky wound that brings the fight to a sudden close. That you've a good chance of doing no damage to yourself for similar reasons is also a plus. (I have yet to suffer the ignomy of killing myself with the sword.)

 

In short, I've been having quite a lot of fun with the monster slayer, keep the bearer not too expensive and avoid thinking that he'll be a melee monster all the time. Treat as if he was just wielding a slightly better powersword most of the time but don't be afraid to chuck him in to hold the line against more dangerous foes as with a bit of luck, even a wraithknight isn't safe from him. (This is probably a bit too extreme an example but it is technically possible and I will love it if/when it happens on the table for me.) You can very justifiably argue that there are better options (mace of redemption) and you could just buy a regular power weapon for a third the cost and not worry about the what ifs and maybes but that's not what this kind of option is about. It is characterful and has the potential to swing games whilst at the same time is rarely going to let you down so badly taking it was an actively bad decision.

 

My most recent highlight with the sword was cutting down 2 tyranid warriors and a tyranid prime in a single round of combat. On paper that equates to up to nine wounds from a single round of combat and most certainly swung the game back into my favour by a large margin since it removed his synapse control in that area.

[march10k]

 with a bit of luck, even a wraithknight isn't safe from him. (This is probably a bit too extreme an example but it is technically possible and I will love it if/when it happens on the table for me.)

 

I know that feeling, DAD.  I insta-gibbed a dreadknight with a force staff once...

[FerociousBeast]

Great post, DAD! Just the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I'd suggest you do consider the combi-weapon, though, due to its awesome potential on a BS5 Master in an army fielding the Standard of Devastation. The loadout I'm considering is on a terminator, as well, so he'd get relentless.

 

I also like the idea of using the Lion's Wrath (combi-plasmacannon) and DWA-ing the master with a squad of termies.

 

"(I have yet to suffer the ignomy of killing myself with the sword.)"

 

How would that happen? Are you thinking of Hallucination?

[Darkangeldentist]

Great post, DAD! Just the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I'd suggest you do consider the combi-weapon, though, due to its awesome potential on a BS5 Master in an army fielding the Standard of Devastation. The loadout I'm considering is on a terminator, as well, so he'd get relentless.

 

I also like the idea of using the Lion's Wrath (combi-plasmacannon) and DWA-ing the master with a squad of termies.

 

"(I have yet to suffer the ignomy of killing myself with the sword.)"

 

How would that happen? Are you thinking of Hallucination?

 

 

Necron mindshackle scarabs. I have faced more than a few Necrons and I'm terrible for at passing the Ld check. (However when I do the dice have seen fit to deliver devine retribution upon the alien menace.)

 

I can see the uses of taking a combi-weapon and indeed have thought a lot about the potential of the Lion's roar (wrath is Azrael's one) but for the moment and in keeping with the cut price aspect that I mentioned the humble storm bolter has done quite well for me. On the cheeky front it's nice that the lion's roar plasma portion is an assault weapon so it hardly matters if he's wearing terminator armour or not.

 

It may sound a bit odd to scrimp on an HQ when taking such an expensive single item on them but it's part of lessening the dependency on forcing the company to do lots of work. Artificer armour makes him a useful wound sink early on for tactical marines or a command squad, his iron halo means he's already got one of the better invulnerable saves in the game so at a basic level all you need is to give him some weapons.

 

One of the more interesting quirks of DA HQ selection is point efficiency and company masters represent probably the most niche line in this area. Unlike the others they do not start with a good weapon load out. Instead they have a good statline a good invulnerable save and our only option that can choose artificer armour. This makes me less inclined to buy terminator armour when I know I want to give him a particular combat weapon that would replace the power weapon that comes with the terminator armour. Same goes for any ranged weapon that would replace the storm bolter.

 

 

Arming a company master with terminator armour, monster slayer of caliban and the lion's roar pushes the cost up close to the 200pt mark and you'd be perfectly forgiven for giving him digital weapons and perhaps something else on top as well to increase his reliability. Once you reach these kind of prices it becomes necessary to make sure your HQ does a lot on the table. He can do a lot of work but it puts pressure on him to perform well at which point that potential for the monster slayer to let you down becomes less tolerable. By keeping him a bit more basic and leaving out the extras his cost is kept down, which leaves me more to spend elsewhere on units and specialists and also keeps the need for him to throw his weight around on the table down as well.

 

I am not trying to say you shouldn't arm your company master with all the trimmings, I am just trying to fully describe my own reasoning behind not doing so and also highlighting what I see as some of the disadvantages of spending a lot on your HQ. I fully intend to drop a terminator HQ with lion's roar on someone at some point as combined with the squad's one it should leave a big hole in the enemy lines but I don't think that model will also be wielding the monster slayer of caliban.

[FerociousBeast]

"On the cheeky front it's nice that the lion's roar plasma portion is an assault weapon so it hardly matters if he's wearing terminator armour or not."

 

Not for the plasma gun, but it does for the bolter component! If you run a SoD, you can put out 4 24" bolter rounds at BS5 each turn, potentially, and still charge. I definitely hear your concerns about not getting a return on the investment of your pricey master, which is actually why I think you NEED to put a combi-weapon on him. And digital weapons, for that matter. You do not want to roll Instant Death for your sword then have bad rolls in your melee phase.

 

Of course we're assuming you're running the SoD in a command squad in the first place. Ass, u, me, etc. :)

[Major_Gilbear]

Once you reach these kind of prices it becomes necessary to make sure your HQ does a lot on the table. He can do a lot of work but it puts pressure on him to perform well at which point that potential for the monster slayer to let you down becomes less tolerable. By keeping him a bit more basic and leaving out the extras his cost is kept down, which leaves me more to spend elsewhere on units and specialists and also keeps the need for him to throw his weight around on the table down as well.

 

Very well put; I think this is key.

 

In fact, that applies to quite a lot of units and options generally, and is an area where I'm personally happy to have something "fluffy" if isn't going to make aspects of the game an uphill struggle, or if something else in the army can lend a hand.

[Vijok]

Is a Company Master with 2x Lightning Claw a legal build?

IIRC the melee section:

"a model can replace ONE weapon with ONE of the following:..."

So can I take one LC for a chainsword and one LC for a bolt pistol?

[march10k]

That is an excellent question.  We as a community do not agree on the meaning of the word "one."  Some take it to mean that only one replacement is allowed.  Others insist that an unlimited number of replacements can be made at a one-for-one ratio.  Most of us cringe whenever the topic comes up, but I'm sure a few black souls relish the opportunity to renew a worn out flame-fest.  You will have to come to your own decision in collaboration with your opponents in friendly games, and abide by the decisions of the organizers of any tournaments you enter.

[Polythemus]

sorry to thread-o-mancy this topic but given the recent griping about how belial is not great at challenges, i thought it was apt to revisit this thread. this is the most booty kickin CM i can come up with he takes advantage of every rule in the book, whether or not he is worth it i leave to you. 

 

Ingloriel - chapter master of the 4h co.

 

artificier

displacer field

lions roar

lightning claw

power fist

jump pack

 

210 pts.

 

he can deep strike because of the jump pack, hes got 2+/3++,12" movement, he can reroll his plascanon to hit and assault. he gets base 4 attacks due to 2 specialist weapons, which allow him to dole out AP 2 or AP 3 and he occasionally has a chance at hit and run. plus hes cheaper than Azreal. Better invulsave, better movement, better cc. he lacks Azzys buffing ability but thats it. plus hes cheaper than the tricked out space marine CM who with burning blade, shield and all the trimmings comes to ~ 275, with similar utility, for less. for your consideration. 

[Major_Gilbear]

Two things:

 

1) Don't see the Displacer field much in lists! Cool to see it here in your build. :)

 

2) LC, PF and the Lions Roar? Is this a legal loadout? Also, I don't think the PF is a 'Specialist Weapon', so you won't get the extra attack with the LC. Nevermind that the LR is a two-handed combiweapon, so you won't get the extra attack ayway!

[Cactus]

Power fists and lightning claws are both specialist weapons, but you're correct that to get them both and the Lion's Roar he has to swap 3 weapons. Bolt pistol, chainsword, and...?

[Major_Gilbear]

Fair enough on the PF then; I guess I don't really ever see it twinned with anything that can give it that extra attack and so missed that detail.

 

On the other hand, I did see sombody who'd posted a 2xPF model on his blog, and whilst it looked cool, I did wonder at the time why he'd done it - I guess now I know! :P

[Polythemus]

"a company master may take items from..." note it doesn't say replace. Ergo RAW this is legal loadout.