Kais Klip Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I actually don't think every legion needs a culture. I agree that Imperial Fists can use quite a bit more elaboration given that the original IA tried to establish that they have a cultural basis. However, I'm quite content with the archetype treatment that many of the traitor legions get. It makes it easier to understand their fall to Chaos without all the trappings of a particular culture getting in the way. Well I doubt we're looking for "the First legion wasn't present at terra because French and Classic French Advance lol amirite", but some more depthening in line with what had been going on since BL fleshed out HH would greatly be welcome, if only to put certain suspicions, theories, contradictions and whatnot to rest. Grounding it in relatively ancient stuff (depends how far back or modern, I prefer the former) simply helps it go down smooth. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
W0lfie Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I though Imperial Fists were supposed to be templars? Only Sigismund's chosen few. The rest are just Ultramarines-mixed with uptight Napoleonic era Aristocrats. Crap, maybe they did stay Prussian, just not the right Prussian! Napoleonic era Aristocrats were not specialist siege breakers, the only real similarities are the uptightness and the love of duelling. Also, IF aren't really something to worry about, going by the codex; they're given GW love second only to the Ultrasmurfs of smurfy ultraness. Also, I don't know that there has been any culture in human history where everyone was completely honest and followed all orders to the letter always Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 If we go by Crimson Fist, the VII are Eskimo Prussian Teutonic Knights...which is a fairly eclectic combination of cultures. You know where else was cold, snowy, and covered in indigenous peoples? The Baltic. Inwit even sounds like a Baltic village. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Napoleonic era Aristocrats were not specialist siege breakers, the only real similarities are the uptightness and the love of duelling. Their "prussian" theme predates their siege affinity (though now the new Codex has turned them into actual siege specialists). THeir siege theme was added in the 3rd Edition Index Astartes series, where every Chapter desperately needed something. Which did not allways wor out so well (see Iron Hands, Alpha Legion, Ultramarines). Prior to that article they were simply a crusading Codex Chapter. Their prussian theme comes mainly from the "Space Marine" novel, which described very germanic heraldic iconography and ritual fencing. The tactical doctrine described in their Index Astarets artile reminds me of the WW2 british doctrines. Excellently prepared plans for the battle, but all units are expected to strictly follow the plan, making them somewhat inflexible during an actual engagement. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502689 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 21, 2013 Author Share Posted October 21, 2013 Napoleonic era Aristocrats were not specialist siege breakers, the only real similarities are the uptightness and the love of duelling. Their "prussian" theme predates their siege affinity (though now the new Codex has turned them into actual siege specialists). THeir siege theme was added in the 3rd Edition Index Astartes series, where every Chapter desperately needed something. Which did not allways wor out so well (see Iron Hands, Alpha Legion, Ultramarines). Prior to that article they were simply a crusading Codex Chapter. Their prussian theme comes mainly from the "Space Marine" novel, which described very germanic heraldic iconography and ritual fencing. The tactical doctrine described in their Index Astarets artile reminds me of the WW2 british doctrines. Excellently prepared plans for the battle, but all units are expected to strictly follow the plan, making them somewhat inflexible during an actual engagement. Don't you take my Frederick the Great from me! Don't you do it! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502693 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Debonair Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 If we go by Crimson Fist, the VII are Eskimo Prussian Teutonic Knights...which is a fairly eclectic combination of cultures. Eskimo??? Do they have 324 names for Fist? I laughed so loudly at this that my ears actually hurt now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502700 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 They might have 324 words for tearing down and/or building up walls. Or "weak spot." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I pointed it out to a friend of mine who got me into the hobby in that "it seemed as if GW was running out of ideas" even if you look at the color schemes. I think that's why I'm most interested in the Dark Angels (before they started wearing bathrobes) and Alpha Legion, and Luna Wolves. World Eaters are pretty much depicted as Orks in Power Armor and they must have one HECK of an ability to make more recruits on the rickey-tick because they go through Ork Levels of guys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Eskimo??? Word of warning. The Inuit and Yupik consider that word derogitory. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502724 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I agree with you, M2C. "My" Legion has gotten quite a bit of love by loyalist standards, but there's plenty that BL & FW haven't done. I suppose the Heresy is more heavily weighted towards the Traitors in the beginning, seeing as they're the ones doing all the traitor-ing. It makes sense. Still, I can't help but feel let down with what the Loyalists have been given to this point. It's painfully obvious that the writing and modeling teams prefer the Traitors. Everyone wants to write about 'em and everyone wants to make cool models for them. I can understand why. There's a sort of mystique about going back to the origins of the most baddest dudes to ever grace the stars. Things are pretty lopsided now and there's far more traitor players than loyalist players. All we can do is wait. In time we'll have cool Loyalist models, and hopefully background with enough thought behind it. I'd love to see the Prussian themes expanded upon for the Imperial Fists. There's a lot to play with there. And if I wasn't doing the XIII, the VII would sure as hell have my consideration. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I'd always thought the Imperial Lists were fairly british in their outlook. Now that I think of it though, despite the Death Guard, Iron Hands and some Night Lords being recruited from Albia, I'd love a celtic, anglo saxon style legion, maybe one of the lost legions is like that, perhaps he was pagan like. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrannicide Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 YOU WANT INTERESTING!? Druids-based Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 You guys are making it way too easy to make shameless plugs. It's just getting a little ridiculous. As for the Traitor/Loyalist coverage disparity, I get it. That's the main draw of the Heresy. Not that the now-Loyalists were then-Loyalists, or what they did. It's what the Traitors were doing back when they were Loyalists. It's what happened when they betrayed. That is what is most important about the Heresy, and it is why Traitors are getting the most coverage, by the companies and by the fans. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502748 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 So Cormac would you then say that the loyalist story would have been in the Great Crusade, and will pick up again in the Scouring? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I think great Crusade is still within the realm of the Traitors, as far as main draws go. Granted, I'm more interested in the Loyalists, but this is the period where seemingly everyone is most interested in what the Traitors were doing, before they went Traitor. But yeah, I'd certainly believe that the focus could shift during the Scouring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502760 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daddywarcrimes Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Actually the ultramarines are more greek and the imperial fists are roman. Not all the legions/chapters are built on how ancient cultures functioned. The raven guard were all about cutting off the enemy supplies or taking out parts of the army that were vulnerable until it was time the head of the army. They are not much of a frontline offensive force. The Ultramarines are very Roman. Their legion number even matches that of the legion that followed Caesar back into Italy at the start of his coup. The Fists are far more Prussian. The Blood Angels would be the Greek legion, with their obsession with the aesthetic and particular fondness for sculpture. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502815 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 You guys are making it way too easy to make shameless plugs. It's just getting a little ridiculous. As for the Traitor/Loyalist coverage disparity, I get it. That's the main draw of the Heresy. Not that the now-Loyalists were then-Loyalists, or what they did. It's what the Traitors were doing back when they were Loyalists. It's what happened when they betrayed. That is what is most important about the Heresy, and it is why Traitors are getting the most coverage, by the companies and by the fans. Plus...loyalists stories get a little boring. Its all: "Courage and honor." "We have courage and honor" "You have courage and honor" "pssst....my weapons are named courage and honor." "You know what I feel like doing today Honorius and Couragious? Some courage and honor thats what." "Hey you traitor scum!!! stop complicating the plot and have some of my righteous courage and honor!" mmmh yeah. The c and h word were banned from the traitor vocabulary since it was dumb. Leaves more room for moral ambiguity and more back stabbing plot twists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502835 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 And I disagree. Legatus Orfeo has singlehandedly made me a fan of the Thirteenth. "Then I accept your surrender." Hah! Yes, my first allegiance is to the Seventeenth and the word of Lorgar...but while their faith is false and their worlds will burn, I admire the devotion, skill, and brotherhood they show in defending them. Traits many of my brothers in arms (Erebus! Marduk! Maloq Kartho! And too many others) would do well to emulate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 You guys are making it way too easy to make shameless plugs. It's just getting a little ridiculous. As for the Traitor/Loyalist coverage disparity, I get it. That's the main draw of the Heresy. Not that the now-Loyalists were then-Loyalists, or what they did. It's what the Traitors were doing back when they were Loyalists. It's what happened when they betrayed. That is what is most important about the Heresy, and it is why Traitors are getting the most coverage, by the companies and by the fans. Plus...loyalists stories get a little boring. Its all: "Courage and honor." "We have courage and honor" "You have courage and honor" "pssst....my weapons are named courage and honor." "You know what I feel like doing today Honorius and Couragious? Some courage and honor thats what." "Hey you traitor scum!!! stop complicating the plot and have some of my righteous courage and honor!" mmmh yeah. The c and h word were banned from the traitor vocabulary since it was dumb. Leaves more room for moral ambiguity and more back stabbing plot twists. The day stories about loyalty, brotherhood, courage, and honour are boring, is the day fiction dies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Agree wholeheartedly, AD-B. When I say that this is the Traitor's story, I do not mean to undermine the Loyalists at all. I am one, at heart. But superficially, the Traitors have the most that can be done with them. There are more obvious changes they undergo. I can easily come up with many points where an Emperor's Children story can be told, to define their journey, while I'd struggle to keep apace with the Iron Hands. But both have worthy stories to tell, and talented writers will undoubtedly find stories I would have never thought of for either, because they can see more deeply. The Unremembered Empire story arc is an example of this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502861 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Nothing wrong with courage and honour (or positivity in the setting as frankly it 'fits' in the 30K land) but perhaps its harder to write without sounding like 'Courage and Honour! Yeah!' I seem to be agreeing with you again Cormac..I'll have to correct that Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Oh dont get me wrong. I like courage and honor...but some of it just seems a little recycled. Id like to see less courage and honor, and more "Let us undo them as they've undone their oaths!" More angst and moar vengeance. But maybe thats why I prefer the dark angels :P I like what you had Guilliman do on Nuceria with the personal vendetta. I want to see a break from the stone faced capture the hill guys and see the darker side. I agree with SoK too that it must be hard to write loyalists without them sounding c and h correct me if im wrong in that department ADB :D I would love to see you write blood angels, especially the Amit and his company, as you have a penchant for writing the boderline psycho guys imho....(tell james swallow to take a vacation or write about the fists) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Nothing wrong with courage and honour (or positivity in the setting as frankly it 'fits' in the 30K land) but perhaps its harder to write without sounding like 'Courage and Honour! Yeah!' I seem to be agreeing with you again Cormac..I'll have to correct that I've just had to explain in a novel what the Astronomican looks like from within the Eye of Terror, and what it's like to live in a God's afterbirth where time doesn't function properly. I ache for something as straightforward (albeit nuanced) as courage and honour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Nothing wrong with courage and honour (or positivity in the setting as frankly it 'fits' in the 30K land) but perhaps its harder to write without sounding like 'Courage and Honour! Yeah!' I seem to be agreeing with you again Cormac..I'll have to correct that I've just had to explain in a novel what the Astronomican looks like from within the Eye of Terror, and what it's like to live in a God's afterbirth where time doesn't function properly. I ache for something as straightforward (albeit nuanced) as courage and honour. Yeah but see...I yearn to read those words. I just finished Atlas Infernal (:cussing awesome, to all who have not read it btw) and the descriptions of things in the Eye, always entertain. Besides, you've done courage and honour....just with an edge of hate and intolerance. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502880 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Talos had courage and honor... but you were subtle about it shall we say ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/2/#findComment-3502883 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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