Conn Eremon Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Scribe: Just remember the creeds of Glorion. "I am much too brave to have mercy" and the ever popular "killing equals honor." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3502884 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 correct me if im wrong in that department ADB I would love to see you write blood angels, especially the Amit and his company, as you have a penchant for writing the boderline psycho guys imho....(tell james swallow to take a vacation or write about the fists) For the record, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and the Imperial Fists will show up in The Master of Mankind. The former two more than the latter, I think. So goes the plan, anyway. These things change and... stuff. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3502885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Way off topic but: Can we expect to see Thunder Warriors in MoM, perhaps in flashbacks? They are the firstborn sons of the Emperor, after all (SHUT UP SENSEI AND CUSTODIANS!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3502888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Is there an overview of what MoM is even about? Other than the hinted at MASTER OF MANKIND. Wolves eh? I'm kind of squirming just thinking about a book featuring them heavily.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3502891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 correct me if im wrong in that department ADB I would love to see you write blood angels, especially the Amit and his company, as you have a penchant for writing the boderline psycho guys imho....(tell james swallow to take a vacation or write about the fists) For the record, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and the Imperial Fists will show up in The Master of Mankind. The former two more than the latter, I think. So goes the plan, anyway. These things change and... stuff. Thanks for the update! Its always good to see you on here and when not putting a foot inbetween our collective butts during a flame war.... I wonder how that thingy that happened between Amit and the attached space wolves on Signus will go down when the blood angels meet up again with the wolves....hmm Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3502894 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Captain Kezef Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I kinda like how some Legions have firm cultures and others do not. It's an interesting mix and some legions are all about the legion while others are all about the primarch. The World Eaters and Night Lords are an example, there is a disconnect between the legion and their primarch while in the case of other legions like the Iron hands and Sons of Horus the primarch IS the legion, look what happened to the hands when they lost their daddy. The Iron Fists are another one of those odd cases, they are a mobile legion without a fixed homeworld, sure Dorn grew up on Inwit but his legion recruited from various places so their culture is not dominated by one world's customs as with the Wolves or Death Guard. Then you have the effects of combat, the way the Iron Warriors and World Eaters where forged by their battles. I Really enjoy all this cultural evolution and variance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3502916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 correct me if im wrong in that department ADB I would love to see you write blood angels, especially the Amit and his company, as you have a penchant for writing the boderline psycho guys imho....(tell james swallow to take a vacation or write about the fists) For the record, the Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and the Imperial Fists will show up in The Master of Mankind. The former two more than the latter, I think. So goes the plan, anyway. These things change and... stuff. Still no focus on the Imperial Fists? :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503061 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Well I don't like the Fists been strictly prussians. The legions recruit from everywhere on Terra and some other planets. Each got their own culture, each legionnarie I mean. Sigismund was a Terran from Turkey, and Polux was from Inwit. They got different ways to think, and they would probably inculcate that on the men under their command. I think that's what gave the true richness in each Legion, their plurality. If I want to create a Captain for my background who's from a distant Spain with Tartessian motifs, I could do it, and It would be fine because the Fists recruit on Terra in a high scale, and not just in Central Europe. If they keep with the Prussian style they're limiting the possibilities of the Legion. In the last material we find that the Imperial Fists is one of the most culturally varied legion, we got an Inwit cool minded guy (Polux) a Turkey more impulsive one (Sigismund) a wherever he's from even more impulsive guy (Katafalque) and a possibly damn near night lord/world eater psycopath (Fafnir Rann) . Do every one of them suscribe to the Junker model? I think not. Maybe in the Post Heresy is more frequent but IMO in the Heresy and Pre Heresy Era it's not. There are some legions who are more strictly culturally established like the Space Wolves or the Ultramarines. You can't tell one from another in their way of do things. Maybe because they're almost exclusively recruited in Fenris and Ultramar. But other legions like the World Eaters, and as we can see the Fists it's the other way around. And I say this with the proofs I got until now in the last fluff. And as I said it's a personal opinion. (If they do them all prussians they would tear apart my already written background for my Heresy army T.T, so I'm not being unbiased) Edit: By the way maybe the Junker model is more post heresy because well...the other ways to do things and cultures get separated with the succesors (Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Excoriators, Executioners) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503066 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I'd say Katafalgue was a staunch ass in the image of Dorn himself :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503069 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I'd say Katafalgue was a staunch ass in the image of Dorn himself "Enough with the construction daaad. I want to punch something or whip myself!!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503077 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 If we go by Crimson Fist, the VII are Eskimo Prussian Teutonic Knights...which is a fairly eclectic combination of cultures. You know where else was cold, snowy, and covered in indigenous peoples? The Baltic. Inwit even sounds like a Baltic village. I actually kinda like the idea of Fists being Prussian / Pomeranian and a general mix of Slavic, especially with "Polish" roots. Because, heck, look at our history, we're ALWAYS under some damn siege, often on two (WW2) or three fronts (German / Russian / Austro-Hungarian partition). And we always stay standing, even with our "fortress" torn down around us. We always come back up and resurrect. Impossible odds? Totally a Fists song that gets me pumping every time. Because we're stubborn like Dorn himself, that's why ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503080 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Well I don't like the Fists been strictly prussians. The legions recruit from everywhere on Terra and some other planets. Surely a Chapter/Legion does not simply let the recruits bring whatever culture they grew up in into the Chapter, but rather the new (and very young) recruits will adopt the culture of the Chapter? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Well I don't like the Fists been strictly prussians. The legions recruit from everywhere on Terra and some other planets. Surely a Chapter/Legion does not simply let the recruits bring whatever culture they grew up in into the Chapter, but rather the new (and very young) recruits will adopt the culture of the Chapter? Yes, but that kind of Indoctrination is "too well conducted". Yes, they could adopt the culture of the Legion/Chapter but Terrans would still be Terrans and in this case Inwit people would still be Inwit people. We have seen the power of the born cultures in many ways, an example being that most of the Terrans end up being loyalists, and even in the case of the Word Bearers erradicated because of the difference between the Colchis culture and the Terran culture. Is certaintly impossible to indoctrinate the same culture in every single legionnarie of the legion (100,000 or more guys?) yes they could take some traditions but not a single "prussian style" is more like the mix of many different traditions. An example being Sigismund, who even adopted the tradition of the World Eaters regarding the chained weapons. IMO each legionnarie adopt the tradition of his place of birth, plus those of the Legion and those wich he likes. And in the same way the legion adopt the traditions of its warriors. Is very unlikely that a Legion could establish the same behaviour model in each warrior (and as has been written it didn't work even for those closest to Dorn). In the post heresy is easier, they're only 1000 warriors, they can be indoctrinated, and must being due to a more pessimistic way of thought than the Pre-heresy style. The pre heresy yes, they could follow a code, but a strictly prussian code I don't think so. Think about it if you tell a mediterranean in the present day to follow the behaviour of somewhere from north europe, he could try and maybe suceed in some degree, but he would still do the things in the way he was born into, and would keep his traditions. From the way of cheering to the way of salute, or the way to do their jobs. And I would find Dorn being very (father forgive me) stupid If he wouldn't let his warriors keep their own traditions and cultures. That would be the same as the Emperor telling Dorn to forget about his Inwit culture and traditions. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I've just had an idea for a yarn - An argument over the necessity of courage and honour during the Horus Heresy between the Sigillite (for) and Dorn (against). The interesting bit is really the fact that you'd expect the roles to be reversed... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 Dude Sigismund is a perfect example that the Legion has an overriding culture above indigenous roots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503150 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Dude Sigismund is a perfect example that the Legion has an overriding culture above indigenous roots. How's that so? I don't think the Junker include fighting in the gladiatorial pits with the World Eaters. And I don't want to mention the Keeler's Incident Even so, we need to see more of Sigismund to proof that right or wrong. But what about Bartafalque Simpson or Fafnir "We have come for you" Rann? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503173 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted October 22, 2013 Author Share Posted October 22, 2013 And all of them would more than likely be tied by some thematic cultural elements we haven't seen. Like Rann shaking hands by gripping elbows instead of wrists, or Sigismund making a cross sign instead of an Aquila. You know cultural things like the world eaters chains or space wolves pelts. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 And all of them would more than likely be tied by some thematic cultural elements we haven't seen. Like Rann shaking hands by gripping elbows instead of wrists, or Sigismund making a cross sign instead of an Aquila. You know cultural things like the world eaters chains or space wolves pelts. Yes but I meant the mind culture, the way of think about a subject is very influenced by your culture. You can follow a phylosophy or a code, but you will interpret that code in a different way than the guy next to you. Maybe Alexis Polux was more dedicated to do the things in a perfectionist Junker Model and Katafalque while follow the same code said "to hell with this paragraph, in my mind, in the place where I come from, it works the other way around". I would put the Junker as a code, an example to follow, but not something that every single Imperial Fists follow in the same way or follow at all. That would be IMO a mistake, It would turn them in truly "Stone Men" with a lack of true personality, I would rather do Mechanicus instead if that's the case By the way you're intimidating me with that new profile pic dude, I don't dare to speak any bad about Dorn or the Junker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503193 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Terrans are loyalists? Sahaal and half the Night Lords Legion were Terrans. Khârn and Ahriman are Terrans. Xaphen of the Word Bearers Gal Vorbak was Terran (and a nail in the coffin of Ashkanez and Ekodas's story of the purge. Shockingly, a bunch of backstabbers who couldn't organize a drinking session in a brewery are NOT a reliable source for information about events ten thousand years ago.) On the flip side, Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Warsmith Dantioch were from Traitor Homeworlds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Examples of exceptions don't disprove the rule. By and large, we are seeing Terrans remain the more steadfast in loyalty. Definitely not an absolute, but certainly a trend. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Terrans are loyalists? Sahaal and half the Night Lords Legion were Terrans. Khârn and Ahriman are Terrans. Xaphen of the Word Bearers Gal Vorbak was Terran (and a nail in the coffin of Ashkanez and Ekodas's story of the purge. Shockingly, a bunch of backstabbers who couldn't organize a drinking session in a brewery are NOT a reliable source for information about events ten thousand years ago.) On the flip side, Saul Tarvitz, Loken, and Warsmith Dantioch were from Traitor Homeworlds. When I said most of the Terrans I said "most of the Terrans" not of all them of course. And I didn't take about the purge in the WB from those two, because I don't know who they are. I extract it from Massacre "It must also been during this time that the legion was cleansed of dissent. The last of the Icononlasts, the few Terrans, and those who would not embrace the new faith must have been put quietly to the sword" That is after a long time depicting the cultural differences between the Terrans and those from Colchis. And Saul, Loken and Dantioch are exceptions. In the whole of their legion how many non Terrans aside from them and the men under their command side with the loyalists? The rule as Cormac said is that the Terrans remain loyal and the others Traitors. Probably because they were in the Legion long before their primarchs arrived (Like Qruze) and they remember the days of old, when their only leader was the Emperor, and their only home was Terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joeyray Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Don't you take my Frederick the Great from me! Don't you do it! Hmmmmm First Captain Frederick and his terminator "Giants" leading from the front as ever? Chapter Master Moltke? Chief Librarian Bismarck (guiding the chapter from the shadows?) Captian Blucher 8th company (codex) shows up with the cavalry at the last possible minute? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/282239-lack-of-culture/page/3/#findComment-3503387 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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