Company Veterans Squad

[Crazy Jay]

I was looking at this unit today and a thought occurred to me. I know it would be expensive but would anyone run this type of unit in a game?

 

Company Veteran Squad

x 5 troops

x 10 Storm Bolters

x 10 Storm Shields

 

If my math is right it comes out to 330 pts. I could see trying this in a 1500+ game. I'd probably go ahead and stick them in a drop pod but decent fire power and good protection. I know its a lot eggs in one basket type of tactic but I think with the right support, they could tear stuff up. Thoughts?

[Chronotonic]

20 shots per turn...with a 3++ yes it could survive but would only be good against ig or eldar squads before being ripped into

[[TA]Typher]

With only S4 guns and If you are going to pod them, wouldn't the max amount of flamers be better than SB? The possibility of 20 shots is great... but 50 autohits would be dramatically better.This would raise your cost up some with flamers and combi-guns, but it would pretty much a insta-kill on one unit. Without the pod they would make one hell of a charge deterant, with a possibility of 30 autohits on overwatch. Orks would fear them. Lets compare teh two vs a horde... let's say orks.

10 Storm BoltersShots: 20Hit Chance: 66.67%Hits: 13.333Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 6.667Unsaved Wounds: 6.667Models Killed: 6.667Options: Ignore Armour10 Flamers (Flamers and Combi) that hit on average 5 boys eachShots: 10Hit Chance: 100%Hits: 50Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 25Unsaved Wounds: 25Models Killed: 25Options: Ignore Armour, Ignore Cover, Auto Hit, Template Hits 5

As you can see the SB's only managed 7 kills (rounding up), while the flamers cranked out a punishing 25. The Flamers would remove the orks fearlessness as they would have only 5 models left and force a panic check, while the SB's would only tick them off a bit and your vets would die to massed attacks when they got charged. Of course if your pod rolled bad you might not be able to get as many hits with the flamer, but on the flipside the flamers ignore cover unlike the SB's so their ratio might drop if the boyz had a coversave (or kustom forcefield). Lets check out the stats again armored enemies like Marines

10 Storm BoltersShots: 20Hit Chance: 66.67%Hits: 13.333Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 6.667Saved Wounds: 4.444Unsaved Wounds: 2.222Models Killed: 2.22210 Flamers (Flamers and Combi) that hit on average 5 marines each Shots: 10Hit Chance: 100%Hits: 50Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 25Saved Wounds: 16.667Unsaved Wounds: 8.333Models Killed: 8.333Options: Ignore Cover, Auto Hit, Template Hits 5

Again the flamers win. With a whopping 8 kills vs just the 2 from the SBs. Even if all your flamers couldn't hit 5 targets I can't see them loosing to the SB's in kills unless your distance roll was horrid. Even then 7 of your guys should still be able to rapid fire their combi-guns, giving you a near SB level of killing. You're not really loosing much if scatter badly. In overwatch (if you didn't use the flamers on the drop)Lets check out overwatch just for fun. Against 30 Ork boyz

10 Storm Bolters overwatchingShots: 20Hit Chance: 16.67%Hits: 3.333Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 1.667Unsaved Wounds: 1.667Models Killed: 1.667Options: Ignore Armour, Hit On 610 flamers averaging a roll of 2 wounds eachShots: 10Hit Chance: 100%Hits: 20Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 10Unsaved Wounds: 10Models Killed: 10Options: Ignore Armour, Ignore Cover, Auto Hit, Template Hits 2

With the Storm Bolters killing 2 (rounding again) and the flamers killing a solid 10, it's a no brainer which one of them is the winner. Now add in the combat that follows (if the orks can make it after losing 10 of their front line), in which the marines strike first because of Initiative and you have a survivable combat for the Astartes.. unlike the Storm Bolter troops. I was bored so I ran the numbers. 10 Vets average 4.1 wounds in CC vs Orks (shoota boyz for the sake of the example) 24 charging orks (after losing 2 to SB overwatch and 4 in CC) average 6 wounds against the marines and win the combat. 16 charging orks (after losing 10 to Flamer overwatch and 4 in CC) average 4 wounds against the marines and tie the combat. Lets check out VS overwatch VS MEQ (Marine Equivalent) troops.

10 Overwatching Storm BoltersShots: 20Hit Chance: 16.67%Hits: 3.333Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 1.667Saved Wounds: 1.111Unsaved Wounds: 0.556Models Killed: 0.556Options: Hit On 610 flamers averaging a roll of 2 wounds eachShots: 10Hit Chance: 100%Hits: 20Wound Chance: 50%Wounds: 10Saved Wounds: 6.667Unsaved Wounds: 3.333Models Killed: 3.333Options: Ignore Cover, Auto Hit, Template Hits 2

Against Marines the Flamers still shine with 3 kills compared to the SB's 55% chance to kill 1 marine. I'm not saying that a flamers are a must have, just that the roll your storm bolters would take might have better options.

[Lysere]

Random question, does the storm shield replace the pistol most marines come with, which would then make the only ranged weapon in the entire unit a template correct?

 

If no they still have a pistol on at least one guy then it matters not.

 

However if the taking of a shield and flamer leave you with only template weapons you will lose a lot of ranged effectiveness as you can only remove models that at least one model in the unit can reach meaning only the handful that are in template range are removed despite the sheer number of wounds you cause.

[Retaliation]

@typher You get 1 flamer for every 5 guys in the squad. Command squads are the ones that can take whatever special weapons they please.

 

@lysere Veterans exchange their bolters for flamers not bolt pistols.

[Lysere]

@typher You get 1 flamer for every 5 guys in the squad. Command squads are the ones that can take whatever special weapons they please.

 

@lysere Veterans exchange their bolters for flamers not bolt pistols.

 

What about a storm shield as he mentioned in the idea? I know C:SM it's just an option that doesn't replace anything but I do not know the wording for C:DA.

[[TA]Typher]

You can only take 2 flamers (corrected). The rest are combi-flamers, so they have the same range as the SB.

[Crazy Jay]

Well it definitely seems better with the flamer idea but I would be concerned about being able to actually use all 10 flamers at any given time seeing that you can't place a template that would overlay a friendly unit. I feel like you would have to spread the veterans out so far that the chance of getting 10 effective flames in 1 turn seems unlikely. It would be good for the over watch though as the template gets autohits.

[[TA]Typher]

Lol.. I was just throwing out ideas. I usually don't field vets, as I'm a stubborn Deathwing Player and some of the other options are so good (Knights).

 

Even if you could only position a few flamers after a exiting the pod drop the other half of your troops they could still rapid fire their combi-bolters, bringing the odds of inflicting casualties still above those of the SB. Plus you'd have flamers left to 'wall of death' thus helping protect you from charging. Still a win for the flamers/Combi.

 

Without the pod's exiting restrictions you would be able to position all of your flamers with little effort. making a rhino sound like a valid option.

[Retaliation]

You can only take 2 flamers (corrected). The rest are combi-flamers, so they have the same range as the SB.

 

Right combi-flamers. Kind of puts a damper on firing then using them in overwatch though while being twice as expensive. Then again you could always deepstrike a banner of devastation via drop pod or deathwing command next turn.

[march10k]

In 5th edition, I did a squad like this in my IG army...at the time, a platoon command squad could have five stormbolters and still only cost about 80 points.  As a MEQ player, you're like "meh," but coming from guardsmen, ten bolter shots was pretty cool...and unexpected.  The couple of games that I ran them in, they did okay.  They wiped out some pesky elves in one game, and the rest of the time, they did make a nuisance of themselves that was out of proportion to an 80 point unit, especially one that was otherwise useless. 

 

I'm not sure it's that great an idea for marines, though.  The 20 shots are the same S and AP as your standard infantry weapon, versus the +1 to each stat vis a vis the IG.  They don't benefit from the dakkapole, and, worse, the dakkapole makes a boltgun better than a stormbolter.  You might say "but this works without a dakkapole present."  That's true, but you have no reason not to field a dakkapole instead of this gimmick.  In fact, the dakkapole is cheaper and provides far more firepower overall.

 

As for the storm shields...why so many?  Taking just six is 90% as useful as taking ten.  By the time you're down to 4 models and lose the benefit of the shields, your unit's effectiveness is trashed anyway.  Is the per-model cost of the storm shield still worthwhile when you get down to the last few survivors?  Maybe if they were scoring...

 

As for the flamer idea, you're still wrong, Typher.  You get a max of three combi-weapons.  Plus one true flamer per five models...so a five man vet squad could lay four flame templates coming out of the drop pod, a ten man could lay five.  I don't use vets, either, though.  They're non-scoring, expensive, and don't really do anything that a tactical squad doesn't.  By the way, the OP is wrong, too, making the whole thread moot.  Stormbolters are in the same category as combi-weapons...max 3 per squad.

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

As for the flamer idea, you're still wrong, Typher.  You get a max of three combi-weapons.  Plus one true flamer per five models...so a five man vet squad could lay four flame templates coming out of the drop pod, a ten man could lay five.  I don't use vets, either, though.  They're non-scoring, expensive, and don't really do anything that a tactical squad doesn't.  By the way, the OP is wrong, too, making the whole thread moot.  Stormbolters are in the same category as combi-weapons...max 3 per squad.

"Page 98 – Company Veteran Squad, wargear.

Replace the first four options with:

“• May include up to five additional Veterans ....18 pts/ model

• Any model may replace his boltgun or

bolt pistol with a chainsword ....................................................free

• Any model may replace his boltgun with one of the following:

- Storm bolter ......................................................... 5 pts/model

- Combi-flamer, -melta or -plasma ...................... .10 pts/model

- Power weapon, lightning claw or plasma pistol 15 pts/model

- Power fist ............................................................. 25 pts/model

- Pair of lightning claws ........................................ 30 pts/model"

 

According to the FAQ I'm correct.

[Lysere]

The only time an FAQ has had to fix something in the actual unit options. Shine on GW shine on.

[[TA]Typher]

The only time an FAQ has had to fix something in the actual unit options. Shine on GW shine on.

 

Yeah the April FAQ was pretty crappy.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I've always liked the idea of an Int-Chaplain, Azrael, 10 Vets with 7 power weapons and 3 fists in a Crusader...4++ on all of them, Hatred, generally charge bonus and can ignore Marines armour saves with almost everything. Chuck a MoR on the I-C and you get AP3 as your minimum.

 

Thats 40 attacks from the Vets on the charge + 6 from Azrael + 5 from the I-C...and only 8 of those hit at I:1, 11 hit at I:5. Plus you have re-rolls to hit. Even Terminators are going to die from that amount.

 

The cost, however, is expensive: 965 points. However, it will kill everything it fights...unless they have flamers...but then again, you will lose a few Marines and then kill them later.

[[TA]Typher]

@ Bohemond

 

965! WOW! Have you ever actually fielded a unit for that much? It seems like a huge risk.

 

 

[march10k]

~grumble~  I shouldn't have to look up basic unit options in the FAQ!  Anyway, you're right, Typher.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Pencil them into your dex March old chap, you've missed a couple of rules answers by forgetting the FAQ.

:D

[march10k]

Yeah, you got me on one, too, I remember...that one was one that I was sure of (DW sergeants not being able to change their weapons), but couldn't find!  I never remember the FAQ when I'm just jaw-jacking online, so it's a good thing that I always print out a fresh copy (for failure to keep the last one) every time I go gaming.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I literally pencil it into my dex, that way I'm only looking at one reference. Keeps it simple for my simple noggin :P

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

@ Bohemond

 

965! WOW! Have you ever actually fielded a unit for that much? It seems like a huge risk.

 

I've fielded it once...in apocalypse. Tore everything apart

[twopounder]

The only time an FAQ has had to fix something in the actual unit options. Shine on GW shine on.

 

Actually that's the second time. They did the same exact thing to us in 4th edition. Same unit, same limitation, and same FAQ fix. It's not "shine on" it's "get your @#*% together". Seriously, the same exact mistake for 2 codices in a row. 

 

Oh, and to answer your question, the storm shield is an upgrade. We don't trade anything for it. But it's really expensive, so giving them anything else makes terminators more cost effective. Though it can be funny to give them all combi-flamers and storm shields, then wait for the inevitable assault. That can be tough to kill that way.

[MadMek83]

Stormbolters aren't that bad really, considering how cheap they are. And let's face it, stormshield and stormbolter stormbolter combo costs as much as single power weapon or plasma pistol. Still, unless you're going to face huge number of ap 2 shots, stormshield aren't going to save you much though. Still if you take few melta's and melta bombs and pålan to hit enemy vindicator or Monsterous creatures, they're not as bad choice but consider what purpouse you want your veterans to fill. To my they are surgeons knife: hunting down enemy monsterous creatures or tanks... Why  I am glad I magnetized all my vets.

[march10k]

These vets cost more points per model than a ravenwing biker.  I can't think of an adjective that wouldn't be construed as flaming.  Even without the storm shield, they're 4ppm less than a biker instead of 6ppm more.  Just take bikes instead.  They move faster, they can be scoring, they're T5 with a nice cover save, and they have just as many shots per model, only twin-linked.

[MadMek83]

True, there's just this: Only biker sarge can get meltabombs, company veterans any model can take melta bombs. You take 6 or 7 company veteran's, give them storm shields and meltabombs and you go hunt vidicators, wraith units or other mosterous creatures. Bikers are excellent all around unit. Company veteran's... well its not amongst best units in the codex,  but they are very versatile and can be kitted to suit roles that rest of your army list is missing. I am using them pretty much in tank / MC hunting as I am lacking generally in those apartment and they work usually surprisingly well.

 

And when you face helturkey... well, suddenly cheap stormshields aren't that bad idea. But all that depends your meta here. I face alot plasma, baleflamers and other massed AP2 weapons so often that when I take Company Vets I take stormshields. Sure they cannot score but in here they have some use. It all depends in meta.