Assault Marines and Jump Pack HQ's

[UltraTacSgt]

I know bikes are probably better, but I want to use my Assault Marine models, so bike talk is irrelevant here.

I am very interested in utilizing Assault Marines in my list. Their role would be bullying units weaker in CC or units wounded by shooting, flanking, sticking a Melta Bomb to vehicles, and generally staying in close support of my Tactical Marines to hop out and intercept attackers or clean up weaker units as mentioned before. They would also be the entourage of a jump HQ (likely a Captain). I am mostly asking this question from the reference point of Ultramarine chapter tactics.

I am looking at setups ranging from very cheap to slightly geared.
Cheap: 5x ASM with Melta Bombs
Medium: 5x ASM, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs
Geared: 5x ASM, Vet Sgt, PW/PF, Melta Bombs

I might toss a flamer in there, but I'd like to keep their attacks in combat and I don't want to accidentally shoot myself out of charge
range. These squads can also potentially be bulked up to 10 man squads with the same basic outlines.

The Captain would be geared one of these ways.
Cheap: JP, AA, RB
Medium: JP, AA, Teeth of Terra, MB
Geared: here I might add the Shield Eternal, but it is getting to the point where it's a ton of points into my HQ and I might be better off just taking a CM.


Would it be worth putting a second HQ (Chaplain) into the squad if it is only 5 Assault Marines strong?


A variation of this idea would be to increase the squad to a ten man squad and add a jump Chaplain into the mix. This would be great
because I plan on running IF allies with my UM and the Chaplain in a 10 man with my Captain would be more effective than the Librarian I will be using otherwise.

As mentioned before this squad is not meant to take on tough CC units. I plan on shooting those. This squad is to be a relatively cheap fast reaction unit to support my Tac Marines and use cover to work their way up to a weaker type unit that they can gang up on. If I become worried about dueling enemies with I1 weapons I will give my ASM Sgt a Powerfist to give him a chance to gib the challenger while my Captain shreds the enemy squad to win combat.



So what do you guys think? Are Assault Marines useful in this type of role? How would you guys gear up an Assault squad with HQ's for a support/bully/clean up role?

[tdemayo]

For a while there I was using the Space Wolf Codex and ran two units of ten Skyclaws (or whatever stupid wolfy name they invented for Space Wolf Assault Marines) on a pretty regular basis.  They were slightly different from Assault Marines, having one less WS and 4 attacks on the charge.  I found that they could pretty much be expected to die horribly as they crossed the table -- often with only three or four reaching the other side, even when they successfully reached combat.  Once there, even a full unit rolling their whole dice bucket worth of 40 attacks struggled to kill much of anything.  (40 attacks vs MEQ = 20 hits = 10 wounds = 3.33 kills.  Whoopie.)  A single power weapon or powerfist did not significantly increase their killing power.  Neither did the addition of Chaplain -- oops, I mean Wolf Priest -- to give them some rerolls.  Even though they were a mediocre unit, they attracted every gun on the table because of their speed, and died and died and died.

 

I did however, really like them as ablative armor for Jetpack characters.  Sometimes I would run two Wolf Lords, one with a Powerfist and the other a Frostblade.  10 flying wounds surrounding them would often get them into combat, where the characters could kick face.  The sword Wolf lord would kill ordinary dudes, and the powerfist one with a 2+ save would challenge anything with AP3.

 

So I can't really recommend Assault Marines as a small, utility unit.  Or as a big light assault unit. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Is there any reason you're not using Blood Angel Assault Marines?

[tdemayo]

Me or the OP?  I was using the Wolf ones because I was on a weird quest to represent a Battle Company, but liked Wolf Gaurd double special weapons and CC capacity better than Tacitcal Squads' special/heavy combination.  Plus it was back in 5th/early 6th and I didn't care to pay the price premium the old SM dex paid for Devastators.  So it was 6 "tactical" squads (wolf guard), 2 "assault squads" (skyclaws), and 2 "devastator squads" (long fangs).

[UltraTacSgt]

Is there any reason you're not using Blood Angel Assault Marines?

 

 Mainly because I have only 5 Assault Marine models at the moment, with the one more JP for my Captain. Plus, I want to run my allies as Imperial Fists or Guard and I don't think you can take multiple allied detachments.

[Schultzhoffen]

Assault marines are (sadly) not that effective and haven't been for a while. I'd only take them in fun, friendly, fluffy games where you expect them to not do much and die heroically.

 

However, if you want to keep them cheap (best use), add a flamer to a 5 man squad and harrass IG, Pathfinders, cultists, orks, etc.

 

I can't actually think of another use that isn't done better by another unit (and this use is so so - A HF landspeeder can do it better).

 

If you add an HQ to that unit you're wasting points because assault marines are fragile and lack a punch.

 

If you want a jump pack unit as a bodyguard for a IC you should probably go with Vanguard but expect to build your army around a unit with no invulnerable saves (it could work but you need to plan properly).

 

A CC HQ should probably on a bike, in Terminator armour or with Honour Guard.

 

My default answer is: drop them and add more shooting to the list. If you want a real CC unit take the old TH/SS terminators (or Honour Guard) in a LR of some kind (massive points' investment that requires you to build an army around its use).

[minigun762]

Would upgrading to Vanguard make a significant enough of a difference?

[Lysere]

An additional attack and the ability to actually get more than a single power weapon in a unit makes a lot of difference when talking about assault units.

[Leonaides]

Though again, Blood Angels Vanguard are better...

[Paulochromis]

I'm actually contemplating the same situation for my C:CSM Slaanesh army.

I know that the biker lord & retinue is better, but i don't have chaos bikers, and my loyalist bikers are spoken for.

Looking at using MoS, so will strike first, reducing return attacks.

But haven't done the maths yet.

[Captain Idaho]

For an assault unit I'd say Vanguard with perhaps a couple Storm Shields behind a Captain with Artificer Armour would work better. It's able to soak fire better and safer and packs more of a wallop in close combat.

 

Don't go crazy with the Captain's wargear. Perhaps just a Relic blade and Storm Shield, or something similar. You can get AP2 in the Vanguard.

[krustydave]

The other day I used 5 ASM without JPs in a pod with 2 flamers.

Under a hundred points. Came down turn 1 and vapourised a squad of eldar rangers lurking behind some ruins.

First blood in the bag. The replying fire killed 4 including the 2 flamers leaving only the sergeant left...1 marine wasnt worth my oppo worrying about. He hid for the rest of the game out of sight and made a mad dash in turn 5 netting me line breaker and winning the game for me 3-2. Great!

 

Sadly I can't see much more use for them other than this at the moment.

I've run with JPs before and they just cant seem to hack it.

To reliably get them into combat on standard tables you need 10 guys.

Which then makes them a unit with a big footprint and hard to hide. 

Or you deep strike and just sit there for a turn, get shot to bits or EWO'd and loose most of your oomph!

I think they are 'assault specialists' that are not really much cop in assault.

2 attacks base and 3 for the Sgt would be a game changer for them in my eyes.

They also got rid of the option for the Sgt. to take a storm shield which is another bummer for me!

There is no option for hidden power weapons either...but then your treading on the toes of Van Vets.

 

As a cheap, suicide drop pod unit to get rid of cultists from a quad gun or such like, I think they can be of great use.

And dead fluffy too! But other than that...take more thunderfire cannons.

 

Vanguard are another kettle of fish entirely.

 

My 2 cents!

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah cheap suicide units with flamers seems likely as a priority use. Nice call.

[Jostal]

In the games I have used them they have been quite useful. I run a full 10 with an HQ at the head. They are great bait for CC enemies when you are bringing terminators via deep strike. They are great for jumping in, killing an Imp guard warlord and jumping out. They do die a lot, but they distract the enemy from the units they should really be focused on. Though I've always run them without support, I think bringing some landspeeders to back them up along with a basic librarian mixed into the squad to provide biomancy buffs and some cheap AP 2insta death hits at 5 str could be fun. Especially if they are landspeder storms.

[BassWave]

So, after reading this thread I spoke to a friend about the 5 man pod flamer. He promptly stole the idea for our game that night :p If it weren't for my fnp rolls, he would have roasted the squad. That night I built my own squad and now I can't wait to use them. Thanks for the idea krustydave :D

[hallodx]

They are not worth their price most of the time, for they die like fast food in front of a big guy most of the time, but admit it, they bought your men time!