Lost and Found: Legiones II et XI

[Kais Klip]

So, what do you think happened? I think the Vlka Fenryka- wait, no. Wrong record, sorry. Here we go:

 

Have any of you fine gents and ladies actually broken the taboo of the lost legions? I'm talking about doing what GW intended in times long past and creating your own legion and/or primarchs, within modernity that is (ie post-BL's HH series start up)? I'll even let you make them up right now, if there is any physical embodiment of a critical characteristic of the human persona missing in your opinion (love? Or does fair Sangy cover that :3).

 

If so, go on then. Talk of your rebel records, you dirty heretics.

[Conn Eremon]

 

An idea I had was to have one of the primarchs land on a world that is part of a greater human collective, like the Imperium itself and some of the ones shown in the first three books of the Horus Heresy series. This collective doesn't necessarily rival the Imperium, but it's the largest one the Crusade ever comes across. Say, on par with Guilliman's Ultramar. Leading its armies is this lost Primarch, however he is not part of the first interactions between the two. Its leaders are. They hear the call to unite, and they refuse. And so they are cut down. This republic, empire, democracy, whatever, is left headless. The military leader, the missing Primarch, fills the political vacuum and becomes the de facto leader. His first act as military dictator is to declare war upon the Imperium that struck first, which is itself already mobilizing to engage him. It is not a war this Primarch can win, and eventually his forces will be battered aside, and he will see the true face of his enemy, and his enemy will see him. In an instant, Horus and Russ will see the war as the mistake it is, as they look upon their brother. But whatever this realization, events have proceeded too far to be reversed. A brother he could have been, but an enemy is chooses to be. No matter Horus' attempts to reconcile, a battle will be fought. It will be Russ that lands the final blow, ending the war. Upon briefing their fellow brothers and father, the Emperor of Mankind, of the tragedy that had unraveled, he is wroth and distraught. With bitter thoughts he decries that they shall never speak of this brother lost to them so easily, that these worlds that had harbored him shall be rendered lifeless and void so that no trace of him could ever be remembered. Russ volunteers his Legion for the task, knowing that it must be done and that he was, after all, the one to take a brother's life. The others agree, some more conflicted than others. Dorn, for one, could not help but marvel at the tactics and stratagems employed by this lost brother, how readily and effectively he had mobilized a non-Astartes force against two brutally effective Legions. 

 

That was an idea I had written for the Guilliman Heresy, over a year ago. It wasn't included as 'canon,' it was just an idea.

 

That said, my Emerald Tigers started off first as the XI, and then the II, before ending up an Ultramarine successor. The swap from XI to II was because of the consistently used phrase 'The Lost and the Damned" for the two missing Primarchs. Since it might be a clue as to their fates, or the causes behind their fates, and because the order might refer to their Legion classifications I chose to switch to the Lost, from the Damned. They weren't all that fleshed out as a Missing Legion, though. The basic idea of it was that I had liked the Space Wolves, but I didn't like the overboard Wolf themes, and I wanted a more Celtic concentration than a Nordic one. So I took the Space Wolves, I toned down the wolfiness, swapped the wolves for tigers, and shifted the focus entirely to the ancient Irish. I then grabbed my favorite historical figure, Conn of a Hundred Battles, whose name I have used as my username for 99% of everything I do online, and made him my Primarch. There wasn't much of a history to them. I never tried to explain why they were part of the Missing, I basically just made an alternate realm where there were none. 

 

That was my first ever DIY in 40k, the Emerald Tigers, II Legion. It lasted maybe half a year, before I had delved more fully into the fluff and came to the realization that I liked the idea of them being missing more than I like using them for my own creations. So I changed it. Conn went away entirely, for a time, and was replaced by a Chapter Master I named after the historical Conn's grandson, Cormac macAirt. Conn eventually resurfaced as ancient hero and former Chapter Master Conn Eremon, encased within a Contemptor chassis. The tigery tigerness was toned down even further, until they became nothing more than the home world's apex predators. Originally, I had made of them successors of the Raven Guard. While the Space Wolves were my first love in that they were the first of the First Founding that I got into and read about, when I branched out more the Raven Guard were the first competitors for my favorite Legion. Then they got switched to the Ultramarines because blank slate Legion. They remain Ultramarines because I want that background, that history, that identity, that comes with the Ultramarines and their successors.

 

However, since I had became enamored with all of the First Founding Chapters, and I had gotten Fantasy Flight Games' Deathwatch rules for Chapter Creation, I started using them as the skeletal basis for many, many more DIYs. I have made about 50. I keep 25 at any one time, but the last 15 of them have been deleted and replaced with something new three times now. The first ten or so are my "official" DIY Chapters, successors to each of the First Foundings, including my Emerald Tigers. I am in the process of writing an IA for each of them.

 

In the act of creating the Emerald Tigers, I created villains based off of the World Eaters and Emperor's Children. I liked the idea of basing them off of the fay Winter and Summer Courts, though they have gone through many iterations since then. It became something I wanted to do for my other DIYs. I wanted an Iron Warriors warband to oppose my Imperial Fists DIY, an Alpha Legion cell to oppose my Raven Guard DIY (this was before Deliverance Lost came out, and is entirely unrelated), and so forth. Expanding on them got me more and more into the Traitor Legions, previously untouched ground for me. Eventually, I had gotten attached to every single Legion. To varying degrees, but I could no longer say which was my favorite (Poe Guard! No, Bromanders! No Overseas Marines! No Viking Werewolves! No Monk Knights! No Crusader Knights! GAH), or which was my least (Death Guard or Emperor's Children, though that is more due to the distaste that Nurgle and Slaanesh inspires in me rather than the Legions themselves), though I am definitely more inclined towards the Loyalists than the Traitors.

 

To keep things even, I had once created the Conclave of Shadows, to stand opposed to the Emerald Tigers as the XI^th, but they are now a renegade Chapter derived from the Dark Angels gene-seed.

[Mortarion24]

Ive posted my idea before but if you're interested... :)

 

 

My idea for one of the missing Primarchs is thus.

 

So all of the Primarchs exhibit one of the Emperor's characteristics, but to a greater degree. 

 

One aspect I don't think is shown as dominant in any of the current Primarchs is Justice (a lot of them are justbut it none exemplify it)

 

So the Primarch (Who I dubbed Minos) was the living embodiment of Justice, and started the great war fighting orcs and other such evil alien races, but then he encountered Eldar. 

 

At first they entered into negotiations with the Eldar to determine what kind of creatures they were and found they were humanoid but xenos. Minos didn't have a problem with them and created the beginnings of an alliance. But before anything solid could form, word came from the Emperor that they were an alien race and must be destroyed. 

 

Minos didn't agree and could not justify attacking such a noble and cooperative race. And so he did the unthinkable. Minos disobeyed the Emperor. 

 

The Emperor soon found out of this betrayal and sent demands and set sanctions on the Minos chapter - The Bulls of Terra. He pushed them into conflict with other "peaceful" races, expecting them to bend to his will. 

 

Minos didn't. 

 

Reports were falsified and sent to Terra, telling of genocide and glorious expansion in the name of the Emperor. 

 

All the time, the Bulls of Terra evacuated friendly xenos and prepared to flee with them into another galaxy. 

 

As the truth slowly unfolded, the Space Wolves were sent to descend upon the Bulls of Terra with all the fury of an avenging father. 

 

Most of the xenos and Bulls had fled, and only a rearguard of the elite echelons and the Primarch himself stood to cover the retreat, when the Wolves struck. 

 

The Bulls of Terra were famed for their resilience and intractability and the legionaries left were all clad in heavy duty terminator armour. The Wolves assaulted from drop pods and gunships, slogging across the open ground before the mighty fortress of Knosus, were the Bulls were making their stand. 

 

For hours the Wolves threw themselves at breaches made in the walls by mighty vindicators and orbital bombardments, but the force shields that sheltered the city still held. Empowered by the will of the psykers that remained. Finally, almost a full day after the fighting had started, the Wolves, led by Russ himself broke through a gatehouse in the southern wall and started to fight their way up the main boulevard. They made it to the gates of the palace before Minos and his honour guard descended from the third floor in a mighty crash to bar their way. The fight that followed was bloody and brutal, but as the number of legionaries standing dwindled, all fighting halted and eyes turned to gaze in awe at Russ and Minos.

 

Russ was hewing with his mighty sword with all the prodigious strength and speed that his father had imbued him with. Too fast for a mortal's eye to follow, the blade flashed in and out and sought any breach in Minos' defences. At every stroke it was met by the hammer that Minos wielded or the titanic storm shield he carried in his left hand. Minos glowed with controlled power. His strength of conviction and certainty of his just cause was fuelling his latent psychic potential and he matched blows with his brother. The exchange lasted half a dozen minutes, with over 1,000 blows being made and countered. When suddenly. A booming gong sounded. Against all expectation, Minos threw his hammer to the ground at Russ' feet, grabbed his shield in both hands, and bull-rushed his counterpart. Russ staggered back, momentarily off guard, as a golden hue grew rapidly around the remaining Bulls, living and fallen, before bursting into a dazzling ray of pure sunlight, as the teleportation-spell that the librarians had been rushing to finish came to culmination. The Bulls had fled and the way after them had been closed and obscured for further travellers.

 

The Bulls currently reside in another galaxy, where they have built relations with amenable races and terminated incontrovertibly hostile ones, and they rebuild their strength and alliances in preparation for the great final battle that they know must surely come.

[Emperor's Furor]

I'd like it if one of the lost legions were celtic/briton themed, and the druids were psykers or something.

[Kais Klip]

I'd like it if one of the lost legions were celtic/briton themed, and the druids were psykers or something.

Wouldn't it have the same level of mysticism, traditionalism and down-to-earthnessism as Space Wolves though? Part of me wishes the Wolves were that "barbaric" legion, ie not simply focused on the Vikings or whatever we think they are now. Come to think of it, White Scars seem to be filling the same Gaulic role.

[Emperor's Furor]

Not really, Celts and Paganism liked sacrificing people and believed in the divine, it would be a prime society for chaos to corrupt. Space Wolves are more like Vikings, which were a lot more civilized than most think.

[Kais Klip]

Ah alright, but how would such characteristics further the Emperor's goal? Or more likely, what character was corrupted to result in them (say, Imperial Herald's affinity for the imperial truth twisted into worship by Lorgar)?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Sigmar

[Kais Klip]

Sigmar

Scandalous.

[Emperor's Furor]

Well, Pagans and Celts worshipped gods of nature and their preferred style of warfare was ambushes from woodlands, perhaps the Primarch was a forest/dense terrain focused Primarch, one who was empathetic with the nature or something, perhaps could control animals, similar to space wolves and wolves, maybe they liked bears etc. Perhaps he was a Wood Elf :P

[Kais Klip]

I think I could roll with that, you could expand the controlling animals thing into people, maybe not in the psychic way but through diplomacy. Pacifists with a dark secret? Could actually believe that if BL went out with something like it, intermediaries to act between the Legions after the crusade was finished to avoid unnecessary confrontation, but with secret blood magic to foretell what diplomatic stance to set :D

[Emperor's Furor]

Yeah sounds cool, although don't want to stray to far into Tau territory :P

[Emperor's Furor]

I figured for weaponry they'd like the claymore or sickle, leaning more towards the sickle and their symbol could be the celtic knot.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/Triquetra-circle-interlaced.png/180px-Triquetra-circle-interlaced.png

[blackoption]

I once had an idle thought and was working on a story to go with it.

 

Two primarchs of opposing temperment. One was noble, brash and idealistic, the other dark, pragmatic and reserved. 

 

The Noble one was the classic paladin, the other a cynical operator.

 

In the story I was writing,  Both primarchs were in charge of imprisoning the other as punishment for there own misgivings.  Thus the II and XI legions were still intact, but held in a prison complex until the Emperor pardoned (or had need of) their two legions.  It is a twist on "the prisoner's dilemma" 

[Badaboom]

 Wow, this thread made me think about the very first idea I had for my DIY chapter, based on one of the Lost Legions. Unsurprisingly, it was Celtic/Viking/Scottish based, since I was so into Celtic stuff at that time, some 18 years ago :D

 

 They were called the Sons of Thunder, their armor light grey, the color of mist, their insignia a blue thunder over black field. Excuse me if I do not remember all the details, but the name of the Primarch I think it was Vidar (my favorite Viking god), who was summoned by Horus once he had already secured the loyalties of Angron, Fulgrim and Mortarion, amongst others. In a private meeting with the Warmaster and the other conspiring Primarchs, VIdar was offered the chance to join the rebellion against the Emperor, which he refused. Outraged, Horus ordered his brothers to slain Vidar, but they silently refused and left the room, leaving Horus to do the dirty work (this doesn´t fit at all with the BL Horus, but I wrote the story ages before these novels).

 

  Meanwhile, an order was given to destroy the Sons of Thunder Legion, stationed in the same planet. Prevented by his Primarch, who already felt something strange going on, the Sons of Thunder where not found wanting and where able to resist and flee, albeit with heavy casualties. The Dragons, the first company and personal guard of the Primarch, made an emergency teleportation to Horus´ council chamber, following the signal of the teleport beacon inserted in Vidar´s armor, saving their Primarch at a high cost. 

 

  Battered and bloodied, but far from done, the Sons of Thunder retreated and tried to rebulid their strength and warn the Imperium of Horus´betrayal, but the Immaterium made that impossible; Vidar was severely injured, but his mind was clear and full of cold rage, so he took the remains of his Legion and tried to disappear quietly into the dark of space, getting ready for their next move.

 

  Istvaan V. VIdar knew that that moon was part of the plans of the Warmaster, something vital, but he didn´t know what exactly. So he took his Legion there and hid into the caverns of the planetoid once he knew that the Sons of Horus, World Eaters and others were moving to the Istvaan system. Silently, he waited. The Drop Site Massacre. The treachery revealed in its purest and most revolting form. The Sons of Thunder watched from afar how the second wave of Astartes opened fire against their former brothers. They saw the chaos, the confusion, the desperate fight for survival of their fellow comrades, and, as one, they made their move. The defensive positions hastly built by the Iron Warrios were strong, but they were not ready for a sudden attack of an unexpected foe, not with such suicidal fury and ferocity. Land Speeders crashed into the artillery position like meteors, breaching the line in a flash of fire. Tanks rammed the bulwarks when normal ammunition was not enough to penetrate the rockrete walls. Assault Marines throw themselves with meltabombs against heavy weapons positions, and all this while Vidar tried desperately to contact his brothers Vulkan and Corax. Communications were stablished, and the brothers managed to trace a desperate evacuation plan. Many Salamanders and Raven Guards made it to their Thunderhawks that day thanks to the furious sacrifice of the Sons of Thunder.

 

      Fleeing the system was not an easy matter, and the Sons of Thunder fleet did what it could to give their mauled brothers time to make it to the jump points. Against the combined power of so many Legions, however, they could not stand long. They fled, chased by detachments of the Traitor Legions sent by Horus. It was a long game of hide and seek around the system, but finally the Sons of Thunder could flee no more, and in some forgotten planet, they chose to make their last stand. 

 

  The remains of one Legion, vastly outnumbered by its enemies, didn´t have much of a chance to survive, but they were determined to send as many traitors to hell as possible. What happened in that battle, is not recorded. At some point, during the climax of the fight, the Sons of Thunder and his Primarch gave in to the bloodlust; not the berserk fury of the sons of Angron, but a cold, distilled, pure rage against their corrupted brothers, who had not only shed the blood of fellow Astartes, but totally destroyed the dream of the Emperor and the Great Crusade, the hope of a better future for Humanity. 

 

  When the Primarch Vidar regained consciousness, the battlefield was silent, a vast plain full of wrecked tanks and burning war machines, and a sea of fallen power-armored bodies of multiple colors. Standing here and there, like stone guardians of all, were the few survivors of the Sons of Thunder, their armor scorched by innumerable impacts, the light-grey paint almost completly gone. Those were the ones who followed their Primarch into the Mist of Battle, but never fully came back. They were alive, although lost for the real world, their minds forever immersed into the Mist. In orbit, the battle had also been won and the Traitors forced to evacuate, but the price has been almost too painful to bear. The Sons of Thunder were crushed, no longer a force to be reckoned: their fleet was reduced to a few, but powerful, ships. Their battle-brothers were only a few thousands, and his Primarch was badly injured. Finally, what was left of the Legion was able to leave that sector of space and return to its homeworld, but were not able to take part in any major actions during the rest of the Heresy.

 

  While his body healed, Vidar focused his powerful mind into the development of a device which would help to cloak his homeworld and the worlds around it, ensuring that the evil of Chaos would never be able to taint his last refuge. Once this powerful device was done, and having tried all possible means to bring the minds of his beloved sons back from the Mist, the Primarch himself, crying bitter tears, put their lives to an end. Their armors were never repainted, and his personal guard, the first company of veterans, changed its name to the Black Dragons in memory of the brave warriors who prevailed against all odds at such a terrible cost.

 

  After the Heresy, Vidar made a solemn pact with the surviving loyalist Primarchs, so they would erase all information about his Legion and forever help to keep their existance in secret, while he would continue to defend the Imperium from the shadows. Up to this day, of the Lost and the Damned, we do not speak.

[carpediem]

I've filled those gaps as well, based on the bits of military operations that didn't seem to be strictly covered: Naval warfare, and whatever it is MI5 does in it's spare time (basically someone to go around putting out whatever fires start inside the Imperium, because the Emperor and the Sigilite can't be everywhere at once, and the Sisters of Silence only have so much oomph). I'm not posting names and stories because it will open a can of worms, and because I'm desperately trying to de-sueify one of them, which is bloody hard, given that the whole family seems to consist of nothing but Marty-Stus.

[Valearx]

I've mulled an idea for the missing Primarchs for a couple of years now; one was a Lightning/Thunder themed dude (cross between Raiden and Thor) while the other was a Pariah. Might get round to finishing my fluff on them one of these days.

[Brother Aiwass]

Not really, Celts and Paganism liked sacrificing people and believed in the divine, it would be a prime society for chaos to corrupt. Space Wolves are more like Vikings, which were a lot more civilized than most think.

 

You're right, they were civilized. However, it differs greatly if we speak about early or late vikings, as early-mid vikings also make ritual human sacrifices (i.e. the mythical Blood Eagle; the funeral sacrifices -those were voluntary usually; the Yule sacrifices at Uppsala; the severing of arms of defeated foes, and hanging it at a tree of the Goths -a Skandinavian tribe what migrated to the mainland) et cétera).

 

Human sacrifice have nothing to do with the level of 'civilization'. E.g. Aztecs were very civilized -art, architectonics, astronomy- and gladly maked human sacrifices at an epic scale.

 

Then, in my opinion, Space Wolves can represent any 'barbaric/savage/celtic/viking/slavic' culture.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Problem with the SW's is that due to them having no successors (thank god) is theres no room for compramise 2ndary founding diversion, where as some successors could find/adopt other culture, that said though with thow the SW's are being turned in current books they may come to represent celtic/druid based culture a tad more.

[RandomMarine]

i always like the idea of one of them being a pariah

[Dragonlover]

I had an idea the other week that one of the lost Primarchs started messing around with time travel in order to better prosecute the Great Crusade, and it backfired somehow. The warp screwing with things temporally is a well documented thing, and somebody at some point must have tried to use it to their advantage (other than that Ork warboss). It has the right scale of hubris to it as well.

 

I didn't really get far with the idea, but what if the Legion doing it jumped too far forward and arrived at some reasonably out of the way place during the Heresy, found out what was happening then jumped back and tried to warn the Emperor? Possibly after being told to stop messing with time? Ok, there's a lot of parallels there with Magnus, but it's got potential.

 

Dragonlover

[Ace Debonair]

Ah, what the heck. I haven't got any names worked out, but never mind.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

The Second Primarch was a scientist first and foremost. He was keenly intelligent and incredibly insightful. He came from a world that his scientific mind had turned from a bleak wasteland into a glorious and beautiful paradise.

Given command of his own Legion, therefore, it was only a matter of time before he became interested in the process used to create marines - the geneseed. Given his pride and obvious skill in matters of science, he felt certain he could refine the processes used by his Father. At first he was successful - his Legion were noticeably swifter and stronger, with no ill effects. The use of the modified geneseed became widespread within the legion, Space Marines eagerly lining up to receive the upgrades wrought by their gene-father.

However, at some point, something changed for the worse. Marines started mutating out of control, their bodies and minds failing them and leaving them as grotesque parodies of the Emperor's Space Marines, unable in mind or deed to carry out their duties.

The Primarch struggled to correct the flaw, but it was irreversible. Use of any modified geneseed seemed to produce only monsters, and the Legion's number dwindled enough that it drew the Emperor's attention.

The Emperor was furious at his son for causing this damage to his Legion, but it was the Primarch who made the plea to be exiled, until such time as he could repair the damage he had wrought to his own gene-sons. The Emperor accepted his terms, and ordered the II Legion be cast from history until such time as the Primarch corrected his mistakes and returned to the galaxy.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

As for the XI Primarch, well, I have no idea what his legion was like, but there's a link to one of his successor Chapters as the first link in my signature...

[The Highlander]

Ok here is my vast ensemble on this topic:

At least one of the Unkown Legions was drawn into combat with the other Legions. Evidence is as follows:

Russ stated that before Prospero he and his legion had fought Astartes before, but that could refer to the Night of the Wolves, or their encounter with the Dark Angels.

Early in the Great Crusade, the Wolves fought in two campaigns that had ALL DATA ERASED.

When the soon-to-be Gal Vorbak are shown the past by Ingethel, the Chaplain ( I think ) looks at one of the unknown primarchs' pods and says they should kill him and save themselves the trouble. He also says he is still pure and not yet corrupted.

Lorgar asks Magnus if he would so easily make oaths like Horus or Fulgrim, suggesting they had something to do with the two.

Sanguinius says if the Emperor found out about the Thirst, he would disband the Blood Angels, suggesting gene-degredation had something to do with their destruction.

Lorgar was close to the two ( hinted at in First Heretic ) suggesting they shared some of his views, or were similar.

Also, the two are most likely still in active service, due to a GW pic showing some of the official 40k era chapters and their names and colours, but two have all data erased along with name and colour. This could not be traitor for no renegades or traiors appear on the pic.

Also, there is the whole issue of the Ultramarine recruit boost, but I put it down to that probably being around the time Guilliman was found, causing a surge of new recruits, and I don't think the Ultramarines would allow ones so far from grace to enter their ranks.

[Conn Eremon]

Which pic do you refer to?

[The Highlander]

Its a pic I saw on google when loooking up some of the chapters. It had quite a few chapters represented by a single marine with bolter in his colours plus his chapter name. But two are just blank silhouettes with "data erased" were the name should be