Iron_Within Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 As the title suggests I'm thinking of adding some Daemons to my Iron Warriors force. I always struggle against Tau and Eldar so to add a bit of bite to my army I'm trying to think of a good addition that will put the hurt on these opponents. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to to C&C any existing choices I have. Currently a typical list of my mine will include, Huron and a Lvl3 Sorcerer, Some Rhino mounted Chaos Space Marine Units, some cultists for backfield objective holding (sometimes I will take a blob and stick the sorcerer in if he gets invisibility etc.), the Baledrake, a Maulerfiend, a Vindicator, some Spawn. Generally my tactics revolve around having objective holders and a hook to take it to the enemy at medium to close range. The obvious choices to include in my lists would be some hounds or some Screamers along with a Grimoire toting Herald. I guess another option would be Daemon bomb with two big squads of Slaaneshi Daemons with some Seekers as a guidance beacon? My opponents I'm considering these options against range from a bent as holy hell Taudar list (with tricked out Broadsides, a Riptide and Wraithknight), a very balanced Tau list with two Hammerheads, Crisis suits and a bit of a mix really, a Wave Serpent list (not quite spam, closer to 3 WS) with two prism cannons and plenty of Harlequins. looking for suggestions here EDIT: I'm fully intending to retailoring the main CSM part of the list, the one thing I really don't want to take is Plague Marines (for lack of models and desire to get them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 10 plaguies as troops , rest is a taste thing . if you want a monster mash army , drop huron and the sorc take a mace DP 3x10cultists as troops adn a GD and DP from demon dex . if you want melee units go with big netts and seekers and a slany herald. huron support list would be dogs+khorn herald +plaguies . All in all playing csm with demon ally leads to a dangerous path , some haven't returned from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted October 23, 2013 Author Share Posted October 23, 2013 See the problem is, I look at the Eldar and Tau and look at my own army and cannot see how I can counter those lists. They've got everything they need to take apart my own army (even if I tweak and optimise). I don't really rate the Baledrake in taking on a Mechdar list,. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I'll tell you have it will go. You will take demons . You will notice how better they are at objective siting , being melee [if you want melee] , doing buff stuff[if you happen to take a herald with divination] or FMC/MC. You will max out demon ally . you will start runing 2 troops , 1 hq , 1 fa 1 hvy , you will even start looking at their elites. then you will notice that your army to fit the demon units changed in to 2 helldrakes with cultists and oblits [anti low AV being covered by the demons part of the list] .and then you will go , hmm If I drop this one oblits , take one units of 3 insteaf of 2x2 and start playing demon codec main , the army will play more smooth . And you will ask yourself , but is losing the 2ed drake worth it . You will of course test and to your horror in a few months[depending how hard you are on testing] , that the demons list with 1 ally helldrake works just fine . A lot more fine then the csm one with 2 . After that you get , what we call an inclined plane , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemis360 Posted October 29, 2013 Share Posted October 29, 2013 A few months ago I was exactly where you are. I started fielding CSM with Daemon allies Then Daemons with CSM allies Finally dropped CSM altogether and took pure daemons and won 2nd place at my local GT with them. Honestly, it's a slippery slope. If you start using daemons it may well just serve to highlight how god awful CSM are. That said, yeah, a screamer bomb with a disc herald would be a great idea. You might also take a nurgle soul grinder for a heavy (if you can make the most of its cover save, SERIOUSLY tough to kill - soaks up a lot of fire). For the sake of varying suggestions, I think a big unit of seekers of slaanesh with a herald with the +5 initiative upgrade might be good. They'll go first in combat even against Eldar, with 3 attacks each and rending you can safely make a disordered charge and charge several wave serpents and probably pop all of them and plus if you already take a sorcerer you can spend 3 spells on telepathy, try to get invisibility. If you can cast that on them, they won't get shot up so easily and being so fast, there'll probably be no way for your enemy to stop them. Well anyway, I assume wave serpents/jetbikes are your big issue. They certainly are for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted October 29, 2013 Author Share Posted October 29, 2013 Jetbikes die hard to Baleflamers and Brands and I'm not particularly worried about them, Wave Serpents are OT and undermine the fast but fragile ethos of Eldar, but that is my own opinion. My worries regarding Eldar are Wave Serpents and Wraith units, not so much Wraith Guard (as they die just as hard to Baleflamers) but Lords were a pain before the update and can just tarpit, and I view the Knight being it's big brother. Wave Serpents, I can see some counters in the main CSM dex (Noise Marines, Maulerfiends, Spawn) but the Wave Serpent has counters of it's own against those units. It has no unit in the CSM dex it is very weak against (or at least I can see, please tell me if I'm wrong!). The CSM Dex cannot really cope well with high Toughness units like the Knight or Tide other than to hope the DP hits and kills that unit in one round with it's daemon weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted October 30, 2013 Author Share Posted October 30, 2013 So today, the gauntlet was thrown down by the janky cheese monster Taudar player. Design a list, the most janky cheesemonster list possible out of daemons and Chaos Space Marines (of any combination) to kill the Taudar list. Forget everything I said about Maulerfiends and the like, I'm throwing the gauntlet open to B&C Chaos to make the cheesiest, bentest WAAC Tournament list possible, either at 1500 or 2k points (preferably 1500). His own list contains: Commander with Command and Control Node, Multispectrum Sensor Suite and Iridium Battlesuit. Riptide with Ion Accelerator and god knows what else Crisis suits that accompany the Commander 2 units of 6 firewarriors 3 tricked out Broadsides in their bentest setting Farseer on Jetbike about 8 Jetbikes with Cannons WraithKnight I may have missed stuff but you get the idea with the list. It relies on just deleting enough units to kill off everyone. It's big weakness being the small number of troops choices, but combats that by killing your army Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Try a unit of Hounds + Herald of Khorne on Juggy w/Axe of Khorne. He can insta death on a roll to wound of a 6 and really mows through the big tough guys and the large unit of hounds soak some wounds. Try something like this. DAEMONS Karios (need to reroll the Grimoire and bad Warp Storm table results) Herald of Khorne on Juggy w/Axe Herald of Tzeentch w/Exaulted (Grimoire) and Loci of Conjuration Horrors x20 Plaguebearers x10 Plaguebearers x10 Doggies x16 CSM Prince w/wings, armor, black mace Cultists That is about 1500pts total and it would probably hold up vs the Tau. Keep Karios very far back and just use his buff/rerolls, to be honest, I probably wouldn't start him on the board as you get his rerolls when he is in reserve. Roll two on divination with the Herald of Tz and hope for the ignores cover and 4++ powers, otherwise drop for Prescience and Flickering Fire of Tz. Buff doggies with Grimoire and defensive powers from divination if you got any (can get a 2++ if you get Forwarning and Grimoire off). Proceed to shove dogs down his throat until he cries. **Edited cause I typed in the wrong troops** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Demonettes shred wraithknights and riptides, I'd favour them over plague bearers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrahir Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 plagues although slow can rust a vehicle and bring down a low armor or no armor mc (poison), bloodletters have ap3 and 5s assaulting and nettes as horny says can shred and bring a good number of attacks too, all good all well-rounded in offense, it's a matter of taste and playstyle what will you play from the melee troops of daemons, i can't really say that one troop choice outshines the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 ^honestly, I'd agree with all of that, except bloodletters, they are utter cr*p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artemis360 Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Blood letters are indeed cr*p. Well, let's see. Shrouding is pointless against Tau. You didn't mention any marker drones or pathfinders but I have to assume they're there somewhere... What about... Kairos 2x Tzeentch Heralds (for maximum chance of getting forewarning), 1 holding grimoire Pink horror bunker for heralds Daemonettes 20 seekers of slaanesh (or maybe more) 3 Tzeentch winged daemon princes Hope for first turn (if not, hide like a mofo), grimoire and forewarning the seekers and charge them straight at his gunline of douchery. Turn 2, multicharge the whole b#st#rd lot of them. Cut them up and wait for the rest of the army to pile in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elrahir Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Allow me to disagree, i like letters even in their present form, have you even tried them before jumping to assumptions? From my experience nothing is better as a mere 100 points squad obliterated a locked in combat ravenwing command squad (with apoth, champ and libby) or swept 20 lootas out of the board, or draw fire as those ap3 blades DS a few inches away may threaten your sit and pew troops. As i said, it is a matter of playstyle, always a matter of playstyle, i like playing aggressive, i can't say i have tried daemonettes (no problem in trying them when i feel to, i like things with axes and big bad swords though), plagues and letters work for me just fine. Anyway, i thought we were talking about boosting your csm force with daemon allies, if it is the other way around, i wouldn't go for csm allies, full daemons seem to do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I have been following this thread, as I've been toying with adding daemons to my list, to make a fun list rather then a trying to be overpowered and failing :D I should be having a game today, so will be trying out. Huron 2x10 cultists with flamer heldrake hadesfiend maulerfiend 3 oblits, nurgle, votlw Khorne herald, juggernaut, lesser reward, greater reward, locus of wrath 20 bloodletters, champ with lesser reward, banner of blood 8 hounds of khorne. I can see how bloodletters are considered the worst of the 4 daemon troops (not counting nurglings), but I feel that the option to infiltrate a squad of 20 of them could be good fun. I can also see how this might be the slide into running full daemons, as they seem way more fun then chaos marines are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Architect Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 I have had great fun with this: 1999 Ahriman (Warlord) 10 Thousand Sons- Rhino 10 Thousand Sons- Rhino Heldrake- Baleflamer Heldrake- Baleflamer 5 Chaos Spawn- MoN 5 Havocs- Plasma Gun x4, Combi-Plasma, Rhino Herald of Tzeentch- Disc, Exalted Reward, Level 3 10 Horrors 9 Screamers I think a Lord of Change would be better, but it wouldn't last a turn in my area. I can hide the Herald better. I go some games without taking much damage on the Thousand Sons because the demons are too busy annoying everyone. I won't turn back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted October 30, 2013 Share Posted October 30, 2013 Well I won my game. I played against Coteaz led GK's, with imperial allies. My daemon detachment got wiped out, but helped destroy coteaz, an inquisitor, deathcults/crusaders and 10 grey knights. Coteaz and my herald killed each other in a challenge, which was fine by me :D It also helped that my opponent had worse luck then me. I can also see how this can be a slippery slope towards collecting chaos daemons, but I do enjoy the option to infiltrate a unit (or 3), so I'll have to keep with Huron for the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted November 2, 2013 Author Share Posted November 2, 2013 The Ahriman looks like a fun list and under normal circumstances it would be something I'd be well up for playing. However what I'm going is something truly brutal. I'd be facing one of the most bent and a half lists you can possibly face. I forgot there was two Tetra's in that list above which is where he gets his Markerlights from (so they are up for target priority). He's okay with counts as so really the skies the limit to beating this particular list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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