Emperor's Children Tactics

[Russ Brother 92]

I get the feeling that the Phoenix Guard whilst not the epicentre or pinnacle of the Legion (unlike bodyguards in other Legions such as Sallies or DG) they're still highly tactical and strong units - that I6 AP2 on the charge boost can be brutal, especially against non-terminator Troops (which the vast majority are) so sending these guys OR Pallatine Blades against suitable units (so NOT sending 5 Blades vs 20 Despoilers) will make them shine, their higher initative combined with power weapons or duelling blades can cause havoc :)

 

Also that list sounds like a beast - a pricey beast (roughly how many pts is it?) especially with the apothecaries everywhere buffing your guys and a primus or 2 collecting VPs for your own dead.

[Dumah]

I couldn't really say how many points it would be. I don't have the books and don't expect to any time soon, so I'm operating purely on the theoretical. Rich in thought, poor in pocket you might say. But if I had to take a guess, I would think it's easily upwards of 3K once you add on the bells and whistles. And you'll certainly need to add some anti-tank.

[spu00sed]

My problem with the Phoenix guard is that they are only good at killing marines, but so is everything else.

 

For example 5 Phoenix guard with sonic screamers and a grenade harness cost 290pts.

 

The same number of red butchers are cheaper, harder to kill and hit harder, thought they are not scoring.

 

Gorgon terminators for the same price can get a 7 man squad with a reaper auto cannon or a graviton gun (who cares about a grenade harness when y are initiative 3 with a power axe). Again they hit harder in combat and they have shooting attacks.

 

Firedrakes find it hard to fit their toys into only 290pts, but they still get 5 WS5 2W terminators with 3 dragon scale shields/combi bolters, and a nice selection of power swords and axes on their men

 

You can get 7 death shroud terminators, or 6 with melta bombs.

 

Justaerin can get a 4 man squad, with a single power fist and a reaper auto cannon.

 

My loyalty and treachery cataphractii unit has; plasma blaster and lightning claw, twin lightning claw, combi plasma and chain fist, combi plasma and thunder hammer, combi bolter and thunder hammer and they come in cheaper.

 

My point after all of this rambling.

 

Sure Phoenix guard can be amazing, but so can every other terminator clad unit out there (apart form maybe the justaerin). The only thing the Phoenix have gng for them is the I6 S5 AP2 charge, and even that is curtailed by cataphractii warplane and dragon scale stormshields.

 

I want to love the Phoenix guard, they just seem to hard to use right, for their cost.

[ImpiousSmart]

The WS4 for the elite of the legion just seems out of place, even before you factor in the high point cost.

 

5 v 5 against Red Butchers or Firedrakes then they'll struggle I guess, but perhaps the best role is for taking out other elite troops (hitting pyroclasts, rampagers etc) - or other regular 5 man terminator squads.

[Dumah]

I think comparisons like that, while interesting, are less than useful in a vacuum. They all seem designed for different roles, and I think the PG are useful in theirs as an alpha strike unit that can ninja objectives. Granted, they don't have the staying power of other terminators, but I don't think they're designed to. It's all about that first-strike capability. Point them at the right unit, and they'll hit them first every time and hit them hard. And at the risk of being repetitive, they're scoring, and I think that's huge from a strategic standpoint. They have a clear advantage over any other scoring unit I can think of. Maybe everything is good at killing marines, but how many of said units that are also scoring have 2+5++ hitting with AP2 at I6? Zip.

 

Every "better" unit you mention are ones that I wouldn't want to charge anyway. That's what Kakophoni and conventional ranged weapons are for.

[spu00sed]

I wasn't suggesting the others as targets for the Phoenix guard, rather other options at the same price (okay for most of them you need to take a less perfect legion, but they are still options).

 

I don't mind the elite only working if you use it just right. however, I don't like having to use it just right when other options for the same cost are less fussy.

 

There again I do play Zerg in Starcraft, so I am a glutton for punishment when things don't go just right.

 

I'll still play mine, if I ever get a game in I haven't even played regular 40k in about 4 months, and expand the unit. They just don't scream take me, like other units do.

[Dumah]

I think I figured it out... Their WS4 represents them fighting with one hand behind their backs because, you know, it's harder. How else are they supposed to get better when they fight such unworthy foes all the time?!

[Sanct]

For phoenix guard there's the screamer aspect - yeah the spear they have is MUCH better on the charge but even if they receive the charge phoenix guard are I5 with them.  With the stubborn and living icon rules they either win or are very likely to stick around (since 30k morale is more shakey).  

 

The only thing left is their armour. They are the first unit to specifically say they have tartaros armour and yet there aren't any rules for it outside the standard terminator ones. (several places have argued over the old FW experimental ones but they aren't valid afaik)

That tartaros is specifically mentioned suggests that FW have plans to give them some rules and judging by EC legion bonus' it will probably allow tartaros to sweep if they didn't run that turn or some such but that's just me speculating.

 

All in all you end with a unit that will be charged, hit first and hold the enemy in place or charge first and kill/break the enemy.  Given this you can hone them a bit more to this idea with the addition of a chaplain consul - maybe give him a screamer, power axe + phoenix power spear for those challenges you have to make.

[Dumah]

It really would be nice to have something unique about Tartaros armor to separate it from Indomitus. After all, it is described as being more mobile than Indomitus (and, obviously, Cataphractii). Sweeping Advance would be awesome, but I'd even settle for a bonus to charge distance and/or movement that could stack with the RoW.

[Sanct]

Do you think the sudden strike and screamers would work with glorious interventions?

 

Makes me wish the phoenix spear was available instead of power weapons for +5pts as well. Close combat EC moritats consuls with a spear sound like a cool idea to me

[Dumah]

I'm afraid not, Sanct. Glorious Intervention cannot be attempted in the first round of combat and the buffs from Sudden Strike and Screamers only last for the first round.

Edit: Also, as regards Moritats, and Destroyers for that matter, I don't see them as being very fluffy for EC; their methods just strikes me as being too ugly and lacking in finesse for Fulgrim's pretty boys. I know some people don't worry themselves over fluff, but I'm very much a concept guy.

[Sanct]

I was thinking more of a unit charging into an ongoing combat/challenge and using the intervention to jump into the challenge, because he has a I6/phoenix spear and the opponent has a 2+ armour save.

[Dumah]

Ah, well that could work then. I would hesitate to go with a Moritat though, as they can only join Destroyers and a combat character without a unit feels risky. How about a Praetor with a jump pack, joined up with a unit of Palatine Blades for extra killy? The beauty there is, you have a whole unit of characters that can do a GI to bail your Praetor out too!

 

Edit: I have just now realized that you were operating on a hypothetical. Phoenix Spears for ICs would be nice, indeed...

 

Edit #2: Or you could just use Eidolon. He doesn't have a Phoenix Spear but he comes stock with I5 and has a Sonic Shrieker and with his special rules, his TH ignores Unwieldy when he charges so it's functionally the same thing (but with S8!).

[spu00sed]

If Phoenix spear were cheaper and a replacement for power weapons I would love them.

 

Unfortunately they are better than a power weapon so should cost more. If they were power weapons costed at 7pts each they would be fine.

 

More models could take them, and they won't be compared to power fists, to which they are inferior.

 

I would even model an entire veteran squad armed with them with underslung bolt guns, as they try to copy the custodes guardian spear.

[Vect]

Great review, however I slightly disagree with the phoenix guard due to the fact that I have played around 3 games with a full ten in a spartan and they are amazing since all the enemy's cataphracii always fall due to the first charge s5 i5 ap2 30 attacks, some basic math hammer gives around 5 kills. And against power armour 10kills...

[Dumah]

Great review, however I slightly disagree with the phoenix guard due to the fact that I have played around 3 games with a full ten in a spartan and they are amazing since all the enemy's cataphracii always fall due to the first charge s5 i5 ap2 30 attacks, some basic math hammer gives around 5 kills. And against power armour 10kills...

 

It's actually even better than that: Phoenix Guard strike at i6 on the charge (Sudden Strike and Sonic Shriekers stack), though I suppose the point is moot since most enemies will be at i4. I'm glad to hear that you've had some success with them. Do you have any extra insight for the other EC special units, based on your experiences thus far? 

[Sanct]

Great review, however I slightly disagree with the phoenix guard due to the fact that I have played around 3 games with a full ten in a spartan and they are amazing since all the enemy's cataphracii always fall due to the first charge s5 i5 ap2 30 attacks, some basic math hammer gives around 5 kills. And against power armour 10kills...

 

But with the spartan it is about 800 points which is enough to make me cry. It looks gorgeous on the table....those phoenix are beautiful models.

Have you tried dropping 3 of the phoenix for a chaplain with a spear? For pure charge efficiency mathhammer suggests it'll up your kills to 6 vs 'phracts and 13 vs MEQ.

[Russ Brother 92]

I'm a little underwhelmed by 10 kills vs 3+ despite their higher WS, I and AP2 - I know luck plays a major part but I would expect 20+ hits and of that atleast 10-15 kills, idk maybe I'm optimistic haha

[Vect]

I've had the chance to run 10 cataphractii (mainly power fist) and 10 PG both in spartans with fulcrum attached to PG. They dominate the battlefield, just the psychological effect, I know it's a point sink but from my experience well worth the risk. It's again the luck of dice and the application of tactics. Both units are great if used for their specific purpose. I have been in the game for about 10 years, and somehow my way was always high initiative is more important than strength... Plus a spartan is a great walker/tank hunter. I assaulted my enemy's justearin terminators also a full ten and I eliminated 8 so the math hammer is obviously just the most probable result that's all... I recommend trying the units out even as proxies and you might be surprised at the effectiveness of hitting first.

 

Palatine blades, the biggest issue I find with them is the fact that you can only take 5, from previous games I found that my personal best use for them is finishing off enemy units. Plus attaching an apothecary really helps their survivability. I would never recommend taking more than 2 unit's.

 

Kakophoni marines, I have only used as proxies in two games and all I can say is you need to try them out ;) they worked really well for me. Again I recommend them in the full ten units since then is the greatest chance of causing the most wounds.

 

Above all I always use math hammer as the most simple reference, for the usefulness of a unit is simply impossible to measure.

[Dumah]

What kind of target selection did you follow for your Kakophoni? We've been theorizing that they are most efficient against multi-wound models, but I think with enough luck they can do well against anything (barring vehicles).

[spu00sed]

Glad to see Phoenix guard can be effective, as I do want to run 10 in a spartan with Fulgrim. I can see them being more effective with Fulgrim around as they gain two combat res, shame they can't run things down.

 

The other possibility for them I have thought of is a squad of 6 to 7 designed to tackle the big 20 man tactical or assault squads. They have the resilience to not die and the attacks that will slice through the power armour.

 

Dumah, I have taken a moritat and a destroyer squad in my list, back ground wise the destroyers are marines who have failed in some fashion so are in a punishment battalion and are not allowed to wear the palatine Aquila.

 

The moritat is an officer who doesn't fit in with the rigid structure of the legion so was given the misfits to look after.

[Vect]

Dumah: I have used the Kakophoni against everything with power armor because there is the highest probability of causing wounds therefor the largest modifier to LD, and if there is an IC attached you should be able to decide where each D6 AP2 wound hits (so on him)...

Also strength six is great against light to medium armor.

Spu00sed: I know this may be old school but I always run in multiples of five then I have symmetry across the army