DW Command Sqd Loadout

[Seleucus]

Just putting together my DW Command Sqd.

 

Plenty of magnets and spare bits, but would appreciate advice on your standard loadouts - with and without specialists?

[[TA]Typher]

Check out the Deathwing: Tactica

 

I've put quite a bit of info on them in it.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/281386-deathwing-tactica/

[Pbenner]

Typher touches on some of the things with the DW Command Squad, but he doesn't touch a lot of my favorite points;  Also, he has some bad information on DW Command Squads.  

 

1) DW Command Squads in a Pure DW List are very pricey for a non-scoring Terminator Unit.

2) If you're going to run one, the DW Champion is the singled best upgrade for the unit. (Opinion, but look at it.  WS5 Str 6 AP2 at initiative makes him a beat stick.  Also is a Character so he gets Precision Strikes and can take out opposing 2+ armor models when needed.  Lets me run Belial with his Sword and Bolter.)

3) The Banner of Fortitude is amazing, even if it is costly.  Due to precision shots and the like, I always run mine with a TH//SS.  The 3++ is wonderful when you have a character with a Plasma Pistol pop off a precision shot.

4) Apothecary and the Banner are redundant.  The FNP Bubble is 12" not 24", but is nearly an auto-include for me.  It saves me enough bodies during Turn 1-2 to pay for it's self.  Long enough to get me into combat.  

 

Hope this helps.  I would go:

 

1) Champion

2) Banner of Fortitude + TH//SS

3) TH//SS

4) TH//SS + CML

5) SB+CF

 

This gives you a good mix of saves, the ability to shelter the banner with a 3++ wall facing any long ranged AP2, and the SB lets you paint a charge target while split-firing the CML into a better target than the one you're charging when needed.

 

Hope it helps.

 

Paul

[[TA]Typher]

Great DWC info. I didn't even think about the champ being a character for precisoin strike!

 

I always run one just because i painted the model and he looks cool and i'm stubborn. I never run a HQ in the unit so i always figured a th/ss was better as they make the unit more durable. PS is a good counter arguement. Now I don't feel so bad for being a stubborn git! I'll add that info when i get a chance.

 

The FNP bubble is from side to side, not from the banner out. Thus it would be 12" to the banner and then another 12" on the other side. That would make a 24" bubble from side to side.

 

Hopefully that made sense.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yup 24" bubble, bubbles are round ;) Still depends on perspective tho. :D Nice points Paul, great to see other ideas.  s

[march10k]

IMNSHO, the best way to run a deathwing command squad is to run a squad of knights instead.  You have to get to huge points levels before it makes sense to have more than one squad of non-scoring terminators, and knights are just plain better.  JMNSHO, YMMV.

[Cactus]

With land raiders I agree that the Knights will achieve more. However there's something to be said for just bringing as many terminators as you possibly can. Without the protection of the AV14 shell a command squad with the Standard of Fortitude gives the rest of your army a significant boost in survivability. In that situation I would go with Pbenner's command squad or something very similar. Definitely a champion, chainfist and storm shield for the standard bearer.

[[TA]Typher]

Both are good options.

 

Offense or Defense.

 

If you play marines a lot (which should be most people) The knights can destroy the other Terms, as they can strike first, thus making the 200+pts unit your opponent disappear in one turn of combat with no loss to you. That's combat efficiency. Against your normal term his unit would likely kill several, making combat random and loosing you troops.

 

Knights can also crush bikernobs, which if you've ever played against them are brutal. Doubling them out and denying them FNP. Normal Terms would only inflict a couple of wounds instead.

 

 

The Command Squad are still terms, which means they are still hard as nails. Saving models is a huge deal and shouldn't be discounted. making 4 FNP saves in a game not only pays for the banner, but half the command squad.

 

 

 

 

 

There are more examples like these, but it's really a matter of playstyle and preference. Neither is a bad choice.

[SvenONE]

I've found the command squad is best used to compliment what the rest of your army is going to be.  If you are lacking in the beatdown department, give them TH/SS or LCs or mixed.  Quite honestly if you aren't going to take a banner of any kind, I wouldn't take them at all.  Their bonus over regular terminators is that they don't need to take a sarge and don't take a slot up.  I've never had an issue with my FOC slot, so I bring them mainly for the banner.  Typher doesn't believe me, but I like the DW company banner on a LC command squad with a Force Axe Libby!  Not terribly practical, but fun nonetheless.

[FerociousBeast]

I think that, ironically, the Deathwing Command Squad works best in a Greenwing list. They are too expensive for a non-scoring unit in a Deathwing list, and too slow for a Ravenwing list, unless they're serving a payload purpose. But in a Greenwing list, you can fill up your Troops with cheaper Tacs and Scouts, and it doesn't really matter if your terminators are Elite or HQ. May as well make them HQ and take the awesome Champion and a standard.

[SvenONE]

I think that, ironically, the Deathwing Command Squad works best in a Greenwing list. They are too expensive for a non-scoring unit in a Deathwing list, and too slow for a Ravenwing list, unless they're serving a payload purpose. But in a Greenwing list, you can fill up your Troops with cheaper Tacs and Scouts, and it doesn't really matter if your terminators are Elite or HQ. May as well make them HQ and take the awesome Champion and a standard.

 

Actually, I've found their limitation in RW lists is really their point cost (being that RW requires such an upfront investment anyway).  DWA turn 1 on some scouted bikes is a pretty great delivery system.  

 

They can join an attack squad's CC so they can H&R for their next assault and keep your enemy unit tied up.  Again you're talking almost a 300 point investment (including HQ in term armor), might be better off just taking regular terms.

[FerociousBeast]

Certainly, it won't always be a good idea. But if you're planning to take a Librarian and Deathwing squad anyway, we're only talking 5 points for the champion upgrade and 30 points for the Librarian's TDA. Then of course the extra expense of a standard, but those are usually considered well worth their cost.

[SvenONE]

Don't know how I forgot about the champion! but he's certainly worth it! esp with a librarian giving him prescience.

[[TA]Typher]

I've found the command squad is best used to compliment what the rest of your army is going to be.  If you are lacking in the beatdown department, give them TH/SS or LCs or mixed.  Quite honestly if you aren't going to take a banner of any kind, I wouldn't take them at all.  Their bonus over regular terminators is that they don't need to take a sarge and don't take a slot up.  I've never had an issue with my FOC slot, so I bring them mainly for the banner.  Typher doesn't believe me, but I like the DW company banner on a LC command squad with a Force Axe Libby!  Not terribly practical, but fun nonetheless.

 

I believe you bud. I'll make a note to add that option to them in the tactica. Having 5 attacks each on the charge vs MEQ is great. It's not overpowering though.

 

Lets compare your unit of LCs with the DW banner vs a unit of THs with the SoF

 

Against MEQ squads

 

4x Claws

Attacks: 20

Hit Chance: 75%

Hits: 15

Wound Chance: 75%

Wounds: 11.25

Unsaved Wounds: 11.25

Models Killed: 11.25

Options: Reroll Hit, Reroll Wound, Ignore Armour

 

4x Hammers

Attacks: 12

Hit Chance: 75%

Hits: 9

Wound Chance: 83.33%

Wounds: 7.5

Unsaved Wounds: 7.5

Models Killed: 7.5

Options: Reroll Hit, Ignore Armour, Instakill

 

This example excludes either the PF wielding heavy weapon or the champion that should accompany Both units. I included the re-roll on both units from the Libby.

 

If both units charge The LC's kill ALL of the marines, while the hammers only kill 8 (rounding up). Still not counting the Librarian which would ensure that they all died and just adding the PF that has the heavy weapon the Hammers increase to 10 kills. The LC are I4 but against other marines it doesn't matter as they are I4 also. Both units kill the 10 marine tac squad to the man.

 

Against WS4 T4 units these stats stay the same as long at the enemies armor saves are not better than 3+, with the LC's killing 14 and the TH's killing 10 (still not counting the Lib) . Against Marines the over kill is wasted.

 

Against horde armies like Orks the LC's do better. This time initiative does come into pay. Killing 14 Orks before they swing is great. Of course in this example the LC terms charge, thus denying the Furious charge bonus to the orks, so they would wound on 5s, this coupled with the FNP banner of the THs means that they wouldn't have that great of a chance to kill the TH terms before they swung.

 

Against T3 WS3 or less the LC's dominate with 19 kills! the THs only manage 11. Killing Guard hordes like this would make me giggle.

 

Against higher toughness like Nurgle marines of Bikes the TH's stay consistent with 9 kills. The LC's still lead due to the amount of attacks, but only manage 11 kills.

 

2+ saves hurt the LC's bad and they only pull in 5 kills against them (3 of those are the PF heavy weapon guy). The TH guys are still pulling in 10 kills.

 

Thunder hammers do very well against Monstrous creatures, while the LC either can't hurt them (wrathknights) or have a very low chance (riptides).

 

Overall as long as you are not fighting 2+ Sv, high toughness, monstrous creatures or vehicles they do quite well. You'll need to protect them from being tied up by things that they can't win against. They seem like a reasonable choice, but I think they pale in a all comers list. Against MEQs they really don't dominate like you'd think, with the TH killing whole squads also. The Hammers also have much more survivability with a 3+ Invuln and a 5+ FNP (SoF).

 

In a DW list you'll usually only have 4 or 5 infantry units. You also aren't that mobile compared to other armies. Having the flexibility to tackle any threat around your units and to adjust can make a big difference. I like the idea of them, but I think that the FNP banner is just more useful for the army.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway. I still wouldn't discount them and I am currently magnetizing some LCs. If your local meta fits in the area that the LC excel then use them! Like I said I'll add them as a option. I've never used them in a game. I'm just looking at mathhammer. If you have more experience or tactics on how to use them send me a forum-email and I'll add it!

[Pbenner]

In regards to the "drop straight into their face" unit, I would not be using a DW Command squad for this.  The only REAL reason to go Command Squad is a banner, without that option, you're much better served using DW Knights for this purpose.  

 

Paul

[FerociousBeast]

Well DWCS has guns, standard, and is cheaper. All reasons to go with them over Knights. Also can be AP 2 or 3 every turn, not just once or against CSM. Not saying the Knights aren't awesome, too, just saying there are more factors than just the standard.

[Pbenner]

The base point difference is 15 points. Knights survive small arms and AP2 fire better for the same points (T5 and 3++). Also, 5 shields base vs 4 shields max for +5 points.

 

Knights are also a sthpid threat. They are a sure way to do 2 things.

 

1) Kick the ever loving crap out of something.

2) Tarpit the crap out of something with careful positioning.

 

Commanf squad has small arms fire, yes, but to maximize it's use you spend a lot on upgrades over all and it becomes THE threat. DW Knights do the same thing or are ignored, they are the win either way as they are more survivable and will do both of the above or serve the same purpose as the above.

 

Paul

[march10k]

With land raiders I agree that the Knights will achieve more. However there's something to be said for just bringing as many terminators as you possibly can. Without the protection of the AV14 shell a command squad with the Standard of Fortitude gives the rest of your army a significant boost in survivability as long as they bunch up. In that situation I would go with Pbenner's command squad or something very similar. Definitely a champion, chainfist and storm shield for the standard bearer.

Fixed that for you

I do like the idea of a DWCS with a banner...they're a much more survivable bearer of the dakkapole in a greenwing list than a greenwing command squad would be. Even a green command squad in a rhino will die 10x as fast. Plus, the DWCS can have a plasma cannon, so they're doing more than just waving that rag in the air. And all you have to do to unlock this option is give the librarian who's PFGing and presciencing your lascannon devastators TDA...yarr!

[Cactus]

Two gamers separated by a common language! To me "bunched up" is what Deathwing Knights to do gain T5. Keeping one model from each unit no more than 12" from the model with the banner is quite dispersed to my eyes. I thought the primary strategy with a Deathwing army was to concentrate your force? I freely acknowledge that there will sometimes be a tactical need to move further apart and you have to judge at the time whether it's worth losing Feel No Pain for that unit.

[Pbenner]

There are damned few things that make you want to spread DWK out. Vindicators and a few Eldar toys, not a lot else.

 

Paul

[[TA]Typher]

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/Misc%2040k/DWCRange_zpsaa966f1d.jpg

 

24" FNP bubble on a 6' x 4' board. It can take a lot of real estate if need be.

 

you only need 1 model with-in 12" for the whole unit to get it. I placed the 5" blast template for reference.

[Dafoo]

I just wanted to point out that for THSS vs LC; Not only are THSS more consistant against more targets they are more likely to get kills in the opponents turn. Which could be a huge saving grace if you are trying to avoid getting shot off the table. My local players are mostly CSM(Chosen or Tzeentch), Wraithdar,Mek IG or Tau, so I also am on the DWK bandwagon for most circumstances. Just my two cents.

[Seleucus]

So, how do you represent the BoF - just stick the Deathwing banner on the Termie and tell your opponent it represents whichever banner you intend to use? Or do you use magnet/pins and have paper copies of the BoF/BoR/BoD ready?

 

Also, what about heavy weapons? -  Only the CML is mentioned above. Obviously, this allows the HW Termie to have TH/SS and if you include one guy with SB and PF/CF, you get the Split Fire and choice of unit to charge, but are their any situations when you would drop the CML and swap the SB for a PC, HF or AC?  - I'm assuming you would want the CF on this guy?

[Pbenner]

If you look in my Army Thread, you'll see both my command squads.  Once uses the DW Company Banner from the new box, the other uses the blank banner from the box set.  I can't free-hand paint to save my life, so the blank banner is my BoF, the other is the company banner.  

 

In regards to heavy weapons;

 

I like my 48" of reach out and touch someone, and I find that it, twin-linked is a much superior early game weapon than the Plasma Cannon is.  12" less range, the whim of the scatter dice, etc, it's similar but outside my play style.  If I was going this route I would end up giving up the SB with the CF and would have to stop with the Split Fire games unless I have an IC attached with a firing weapon, or the Apothecary to fit that need.  

 

I don't care much for the Assault Cannon.  While it's a decent weapon in it's own right, I feel for the points I'd rather have missiles.  In the mid-range it's perfect, but I spend too much time foot slogging to justify losing my extra range and DWA range.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[march10k]

http://i1187.photobucket.com/albums/z389/typher/Misc%2040k/DWCRange_zpsaa966f1d.jpg

 

24" FNP bubble on a 6' x 4' board. It can take a lot of real estate if need be.

 

you only need 1 model with-in 12" for the whole unit to get it. I placed the 5" blast template for reference.

Convincing graphic!  Consider my mind changed.

 

Cactus,

 

I concentrate my DW forces inside a thimble...on turn two.  After turn three, either my gambit has failed, or it has succeeded.  In any case, from that point on, it's time to start thinking about capping objectives, which is often going to require some spreading out.  I assume that players who don't use land raiders either never concentrate in the first place, or they assume from the start that certain objectives will be out of reach, and just give them to the enemy without a fight.